SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A point I'm really struggling with is a porn boundary. Whether to create one or not. If it's a big deal or not. If it's my insecurities or beliefs that stand in the way. If I'm just a prude. If I'm being hypocritical. And of course I am leery of posting because porn is such a huge source of debate here. And we know people here IRL and I just feel weird.

Basically I'm a recovering self-hater. My own worst critic. I'm learning to accept and love myself regardless of who or what. Making progress in that area. But I stumble terribly when it comes to my husband. And I don't know if it's a vulnerability thing or a "broken and need more work" thing.

Hate porn. Hate "sexy" mags. Hate anything that worships the body of a woman. When I see them, I see everything I'm not and could never attain to, regardless of airbrushing and Photoshop. When I see my husband looking at any of it, I feel incredibly insecure. Does he wish I looked like that? Am I enough? Does he deal with me cause he "has" to? Does he picture those girls when he's with me? Am I letting him down by not being the ideal?

He has loved me at my physical worst and physical best. But if he really loves me, and I believe he does, why does he look at outside things? What does that accomplish? I don't see how ogling a magazine fox is going to make him want me more.

Couple weeks ago, I got on his phone to Google something. There were already three tabs open and every single one of them was a babe in skimpy stuff, toned, tanned, and hairless from the eyebrows down. I asked, "Ummm...what's this?" and he looked completely shocked and like he had no idea where it came from. I don't know if he legitimately didn't know how they got there or if he was ashamed and didn't want me to know.

He's always said that he doesn't like porn. And nothing I've seen that he's looked at is "hardcore". It's more...softcore? (Dunno the proper term.)

So here's where I get hung up. I can watch porn, we've done it before together, but it's not a huge deal either way. Whatever. But if I find out he's looked at stuff alone, I get sick to my stomach. Is he scratching an itch? Is there a such thing as scratching the itch? Is he ashamed? Is it just a "guy thing" (which I don't think I believe in.) Guy or girl, doesn't matter. For every visual man is a visual woman. For every hypersexual male is a hypersexual female. I don't think the guy/girl rationale fits?

Porn is very trigger for me. My AP was hardcore into it. We're talking majorly kinky crap. I willingly engaged in watching/swapping with him. Guess I felt that since he was scratching my back, may as well scratch his. Had to support each other's egos and whatnot. I still have nightmares about it. Still physically cringe when I remember it.

Lingerie is also very triggery for me. AP was an "expert" in it. I cannot look at a pair of panties without remembering his tips and tricks. I haven't been shopping since before the A. Just. can't. do. it. He helped me ruin the experience of shopping and picking stuff out. I stole that experience from my husband. I've tried to take the trigger back but so far, no luck. Pick up a nighty in a department store? I can do it without running thru with my head ducked now. But to go into a lingerie specific store or website, I get panicky.

I don't know if I need to just get over myself and let my husband enjoy his softcore stuff. If it's damaging to our relationship. And worst of all, I don't even know how to talk to him about this. I struggle with having the "right" to question, be answered, and enforce rules and boundaries for myself. This communication thing sucks when I don't even know what to think of it all anyway.

Aubrie,

You know it makes you feel uncomfortable. So this is a boundary that your body (via the nervousness, sick-to-your-stomach feeling) is telling you should not be crossed. Part of being healthy is knowing you have the right to have boundaries, to keep yourself physically and emotionally safe. The porn sounds like it's crossing your emotional boundaries.

It's OK to talk about it, it's OK to have boundaries about it. I wish I had a suggestion for how to bring it up. I did, and my H got angry when I did, and then didn't stop watching it until his phone's internet gave out. It didn't feel nice to have those boundaries repeatedly crossed, and to this day I'm still healing from it.

You're not a prude and you're not hypocritical. You're being true to yourself. (((hugs)))

Logically, I know that boundaries are right and healthy. Physical safety boundaries has never been an issue. But emotional boundaries is where I've fallen apart at the seams and it probably comes from being so stunted in my past. It's so hard for me to place them and stick to them.

I'm scared to bring it up because when I asked about his phone browser, he acted shocked and then clamed up. I'm scared a "discussion" wouldn't be any different.

What you wrote here makes total sense and comes across as very clear. Is there any way of taking what you wrote here to help prompt you if/when you discuss it with him, or if you feel more comfortable to write a letter?

I hear you. This is a difficult issue to bring up and talk about.

Hun openness goes both ways. You've said this to me before. If it is something you feel uncomfortable with sit hubby down and talk. Open, honest, non judging communication can do wonders. You both have come so far and this is another step. Tell him how it makes you feel and what you need, from what you've said about him previously I don't see this conversation going badly. Find out why he clammed up, be honest with him and yourself. It's all we have.

Silver, I don't know. Sometimes I tell him I've posted about a difficult subject and would he please read it? I guess this time, I'm struggling with having an issue with something when in the scope of the "big picture" it's not "as bad" as other battles we've faced.

I hear you Unagie.

Trying to think this out. Maybe I need to sleep on it.

I see two issues here. One is your self image issue. That one you have to tackle on your own. And I get it, I have my own issue with that.

The other is, why can you do it with him, but you have a problem with him doing it on his own? Do you feel he is keeping something from you?

Porn is very trigger for me. My AP was hardcore into it. We're talking majorly kinky crap. I willingly engaged in watching/swapping with him. Guess I felt that since he was scratching my back, may as well scratch his. Had to support each other's egos and whatnot. I still have nightmares about it. Still physically cringe when I remember it.

Lingerie is also very triggery for me. AP was an "expert" in it. I cannot look at a pair of panties without remembering his tips and tricks. I haven't been shopping since before the A. Just. can't. do. it. He helped me ruin the experience of shopping and picking stuff out. I stole that experience from my husband.

Gently here. This is something that you need to examine a little more.

Boundaries are all well and good if they are legitimate. If they are about your insecurities, your dysfunction and your guilt... well that isn't a healthy boundary.

There is a line between a boundary and manipulation. Boundaries are designed to protect yourself, manipulation is about changing someone else's behavior. Are you trying to change his behavior so that you don't have to deal with your self-esteem issues (or whatever issues)?

Honest communication is great, just make sure you are being honest with yourself first.

You have a slew of questions and suppositions of what your husband may or may not be thinking. Don't assume. You know better.

Good luck.

Aubrie:

I think other people have explained it here better than I could hope to. Still, I'm the first male to respond to this, so I may have a bit of a different take on it.

For me, this is a completely slippery slope. It depends solely on the motive and the level of significance it takes in his mind. To put it into perspective: sex, sexual gratification, porn, and cyber sex all came before Heart when I was 'in the Fog' -- now, I barely even think about any of them without Heart being included in my thoughts (either as a participant or what her reaction would be should she discover me with it, which tends to act as prohibition).

If his looking at women starts taking a dangerous precedence to your marriage, or if he can't perform without having porn around in some fashion, then it has impeded his life and is, therefore, a problem. That tends to be the thin-line definition that deals with these things; if and when the object/concept/idea starts to overtake the importance and sanctity of the marriage, then that is when the object/concept/idea becomes "bad."

There should be warning signs when this line is crossed, but it requires vigilance. You shouldn't have to be his babysitter any more than he should have to be yours.

(Just edited. Didn't add anything.)

[This message edited by KBeguile at 9:01 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]

The other is, why can you do it with him, but you have a problem with him doing it on his own? Do you feel he is keeping something from you?

We have watched/looked at it before together. As in, like 9-10 years ago. He said it just wasn't his thing so we decided it wouldn't be a part of our lives. If he feels that way, then why look at it now and not tell me? If he has changed his mind, why hide it? There was no way those pictures were on his phone "accidentally".

So I guess I'm confused. We agreed porn wouldn't be a part of our relationship. I obviously blew that up with AP. Since the A, I haven't participated in anything remotely attached to porn because, that's not our thing, and I vowed to respect that upon confessing to him.

wincings, so good to see you.

Are you trying to change his behavior so that you don't have to deal with your self-esteem issues (or whatever issues)?

That would be the easy way out. But what if he drops dead tomorrow? I'm still a screwed up mess. Dealing with the issues is what needs to be done.

I feel like I can hide from the porn thing because I thought we'd agreed to not participate in it. But if that is changing, I know I'm doing to have to deal with it.

The lingerie thing is a work in progress. What kills me is that I can't shop my favorite places or look at anything without overly critiquing it now. And where did that critique come from? AP. We have tainted that whole experience. Part of me like like, "Screw it. I'll buy what I want, wear what I want, the only one that sees is my husband, and if I look smokin', it's to his benefit alone. AP be hanged." There's a battle in the mind to keep the right perspective. It's just the "right" doesn't always win out yet.

If the rules have changed, then I guess that means I'll have to decide how I feel about that. But if the rules are the same, then I don't understand the hiding.

You are right wincings. We do need to talk. Just trying to psych myself up.

Spare me the hugs KB. We're not family related. Handshake will suffice.

What you describe is way more extreme that what I'm dealing with. He doesn't have performance issues whatsoever. He seems to quite enjoy our times together. He's not "dangerous".

I know I'm not the best at advice but- just my opinion...

He might be hiding it- actually- not hiding as such- being discreet (yeah yeah it's the same thing but bear with me) in a polite/not pervy way? I look at porn sometimes- not for a while but I have done and I do "hide" it but I'm not hiding- the Mrs knows but I don't flaunt it- you get me?

Thing is- if you're not happy with that- you'd be the first to say you need to talk to him about it- maybe the rules have changed- maybe when you drew up new rules some from the previous list fell off- maybe the rules haven't changed and he's being mischievous- being a rule breaker.

I think (I know me thinking is dangerous but none the less) I think even if someone has previous done wrong- if you decide to R it isn't acceptable to be like "well you cheated so I'm going to do this and you can't stop me"- but- you know that already- much more than me.

Over & out Chief.

Yep, I hear you gf,

But if he really loves me, and I believe he does, why does he look at outside things?

I felt this way also. Always bothered me when my BH viewed it. Always. Made me feel inferior to every one of those women.

Make sure Mr. Aubrie knows how you feel about this, even as your working on your own self esteem.

[This message edited by SandAway at 1:59 PM, May 29th (Wednesday)]

Gently - Aubrie, your self-esteem and body issues are the real problems here. Does his viewing these images take time away from you? Does he not want to be physically intimate with you because he'd rather look at women? I'm pretty confident the answer is no.

if he really loves me, and I believe he does, why does he look at outside things?

sweetie, his looking at that stuff has nothing to do with his love for you. C'mon, you know this.

What does that accomplish?

Ask him. He would be the only one to know.

I don't see how ogling a magazine fox is going to make him want me more.

What he's doing ain't about you. How you are reacting to it is all about you.

INAB watches porn - we've watched it together. He watches it alone. It's whatever to me. Don't get me wrong, I have self-esteem & body issues BUT at the end of the day, he's my husband, he loves me, he wants ME, and he's made that clear. I'm good with that. Really good. Porn has not crossed a boundary nor has it caused any damage to our relationship. Now, if the last sentence were untrue, then we'd have a problem.

Bottom line - talk to him. Even if he clams up, still talk to him. Communicate how it makes you feel. A closed mouth don't get fed.

How did you get thru your self-image/esteem crap MJ? How do you just sit back, with your self issues and not feel threatened or worthless when your husband (or anyone) does or doesn't do something?

I am so tired of this crap. I'm tired of stumbling. To have what seems like sure footing for 2 seconds then BAM, flat on my face. Am I crazy? Am I doing something wrong?

Make sure Mr. Aubrie knows how you feel about this, even as your working on your own self esteem.

Doesn't really frickin' matter what he does because this pretty much is all on me anyway. I need to figure out how to navigate the crap storm regardless of anything or anyone else.

Oh, and he got on SI this morning and read my post. Hasn't been on in ages. But he read this morning. Don't have to worry about how to broach the subject with him now. :/

If a veteran has some insight (magical or otherwise) on how to navigate this nightmare of self-image/worth/esteem and finally beat it, please feel free to post here or PM me. I'm at a loss.

If a veteran has some insight (magical or otherwise) on how to navigate this nightmare of self-image/worth/esteem and finally beat it, please feel free to post here or PM me. I'm at a loss.

You're not alone, Aubrie. I want to know too. It's a struggle.

I think, like with many difficult things, there are triggers. For us who struggle with self-esteem, maybe porn is a trigger. As well, maybe overly-sexual TV ads, Cosmo articles, certain words like "hot" etc. While I know we cannot avoid triggers for the rest of our lives, maybe it helps to take time to specifically steer away from those triggers, so as to not reopen wounds, while we heal.

And the next step, I think, is to love yourself outside of your appearance. And that's hard.

What's something you love about yourself? A year ago, I didn't care that I am an environmentalist, a gardener, and that, more than my friends' acknowledgement of it, it's something that fills me with life. But lately, I took a look at it and remembered my passion for it and now am slowly rebuilding it - but taking the time to specifically detach it from instances of external validation, remember why I'm proud of it instead of why other people are or aren't. The trick is finding something you love about yourself that doesn't depend heavily on validation by others. Just something you love. And so you spend more time with it. It takes a long time, maybe even months, but you slowly identify with that passion again. Preferably something you love about yourself that isn't about appearance, though that's good too. But I think a key is to really love all of who you are, and do it without external validation. So start with something you already love without validation. Does that make sense?

I'm struggling too, so I'm not at the end of the tunnel, but this is what's slowly helping right now. I hope some other folks further along have some insights.

As for the porn that your H watches... while it's true that in the end it mustn't matter what he does, at the same time marriage is a team effort. You two are a team. If you're trying to heal your self-esteem, and porn triggers some hurtful and negative thoughts (or if you just disagree with porn on principle), you can ask him to support you as you're working through it, right? As a teammate, how can he support his wife as she deals with this? What does porn mean to you as a team? For him, would it be reasonable to keep porn out of the home, so it would feel emotionally safer? Or does that feel controlling to him? I admit I'm not sure where the line is, because in a marriage sexuality is also a team thing, even though it's also individual. It's also a matter of values. You thought that you both valued not having porn in the marriage. It would be worth looking again to see if you both still carry those values. There's nothing wrong with clarifying that, imo.

ETA: Another thing about the struggle of low self-esteem... Accept it. We accept that this is our struggle. Accept that this is part of us. It doesn't mean that the negative self-thoughts are true, but if we can accept that we struggle with this... we can have more energy to heal from it in the long term. We can also change some of our values... Maybe beauty doesn't deserve as much power as we're giving it. Maybe kindness or attentiveness or good boundaries or a great mind or simply living etc etc deserve more.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:00 PM, May 29th (Wednesday)]

How? I remind myself that

he's my husband, he loves me, he wants ME, and he's made that clear.

I affirm myself daily. I work on myself. I grow. I struggle with self-esteem but it doesn't control me anymore. I don't allow it. Ultimately, it's his life. I decide if I allow what he does to impact me in a negative way. I choose not to let it get to me because I know, at my core, that his choices aren't about me. That makes it easier for me to say "whatevs" to it. Not to mention, I'm a catch. I know it. Those broads on the screen ain't got shit on me. I'm 100% confident about that. So, INAB can ogle all he wants. They are just fantasy. I am his reality and I am better than anything he can watch on TV, on the computer, or in print. Point blank and the period.

At present, your self-esteem issues are in the driver's seat. This won't stop until you take back the wheel. It's natural to stumble and fall - just pick yourself back up.

IMO, I think it's a blessing in disguise that Mr. Aubrie read your post. It's a perfect segue to a much needed conversation. Breathe Aubrie. You are a beautiful, intelligent, funny, amazing woman. Mr. A knows this and once you come to fully own this, in both your mind & soul, you will be free.

I think it's a blessing in disguise that Mr. Aubrie read your post. It's a perfect segue to a much needed conversation.

I wasn't aware till last night, but he followed this thread all throughout the day. It was all kinds of awkward when he got home. :/ Took a while to break thru and start talking. And even still, it feels like quicksand all over again.

The "rules" have not changed. He chose to do his own thing. I found out his usage was for a longer period of time and more frequent than I thought. That kind of hurt to hear. He didn't realize how much of a trigger/fight I have with it. Last night I had to pour out how and why.

In the beginning days after Dday, he never asked for detail, never asked for much. And I think because of his lack of wanting to know, I've kept more in than I should and it's killing us both. I'm wondering if I should write out a timeline and the whats/wheres/hows/whatever. Makes me sick to think about it, but maybe it would help us both more than we realize.

He can't understand why I have these insecurities and why it affects so much of my life. The best example I could think of that he could relate to was, if you were not 100% confident in your field of work, would you want to advertise your business in every newspaper, magazine, billboard, and park bench into the Metro area? Even a small ad in the Peddler or Craigslist would freak a person out. You have to have the confidence in your workmanship to take large strides.

My husband is at a loss on how to help me. Last night he asked me, "Do you need to get away? Do you need to be alone?" The very thought panicked me. Me? Alone? Go away somewhere for the weekend? Where? What would I do? What would it accomplish? Would it help? Yet something in the recesses of my mind thought, "Wow, that would be kind of neat. I've never been anywhere alone." *shrug* Still thinking about that one.

Another thing about the struggle of low self-esteem... Accept it.

I've been fighting that a long time. There are times I try to psych myself up to accept it, but I think I've been fooling myself all along. Disbelief, horror, and shame are blocking me from full acceptance. I know there's issues. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. So what's the big deal, right?

What's something you love about yourself?

This is sad, but I don't know. I had started to find out but I let myself get lost again in the grand scheme of things. Most of the things I loved about myself are what helped me get into trouble in the first place. The other things about me are attached to people.

Someone here had suggested I feed my hobby of choice an hour a day. (That was months ago) Every time I worked on it I felt sick, so I laid it aside. That hobby is a trigger and it's going to take work to really enjoy it again, if ever.

Silver, the first thing I thought when I read your post is, I haven't read a single book in 19 months. Everything has been either a school textbook or relationship/self-healing book. I want to read more. Last weekend, I purchased a papasan chair. (Don't judge. It's a childhood dream come true.) Haven't had 10 minutes to sit in it yet. So this morning, I set my alarm an hour early, brewed some coffee, curled up in my papasan in the library, and read. It felt...nice, good, normal, natural.

I don't know that reading in the mornings is going to fix crappy self-image issues, but it was nice to sit and relax in the silence for a while. Today I might make a throw for ME, for my chair. My toes get cold when I sit still.

Weirdest timing evah, but Mr. Aubrie had scheduled date night for us tonight before this whole episode unfolded. I feel awkward, but looking forward to it. And I'm toying with the idea of asking him to help me to slay another trigger/panic. Scary. :/

We shall see.

You're off to a good start

I'm wondering if I should write out a timeline and the whats/wheres/hows/whatever. Makes me sick to think about it, but maybe it would help us both more than we realize.

I was the opposite of Mr Aubrie in that I needed all of the details. BR wrote them out over the course of a few weeks. She's a writer, so it's just written out. The document is something like 34 pages long.

It was painful for her to write, and it was painful for me to read, but it did help us both. It helped her to get it out. I'd suggest writing it out just to get it out of your system. He doesn't need to read it, but he will have that option if he ever wants to do so.

That hobby is a trigger and it's going to take work to really enjoy it again, if ever.

Maybe it's time to find a new hobby

You're under two years out, so you're still healing. Triggers can and will fade with time. It may not be time to reclaim your old hobby, but don't write it off forever. Find something new.

Right before our last D-day, BR took up karate. She now has a black belt and her own Dojo. Try new things

I'd suggest writing it out just to get it out of your system.

As selfish as it sounds, I think that's what I need. Just to purge it all out. I will leave it up to him whether he wants anything to do with it or not.

I'm like BR. If I get to writing, it could go on for days. This is going to be hard.

A new hobby may be the ticket. For now, I'm happy with my book time. But I'll start looking into new stuff too.

Thanks for the support everyone.

Put a boundary around your writing time. It will be very emotional and draining. You have time to get it all out