SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What I wonder is, how in the world do you have any idea what kind of progress he has made or not made? You aren't even in the same city, and have only seen him for a total of 10 days out of an entire year. It's easy to keep up a façade for 10 days, it's EASY to pretend to be someone you're not on the internet.

I've had internet relationships before, my H and I met online (although we lived just a few miles away from each other at the time) and have been married for almost 15 years. I have had other "relationships" before H and I met also online. Those guys all presented themselves to be one thing, and when I met them, they were always something else. The thing was, I paid attention to what they really were, and I believed them each time they showed me that they were not who I thought they were.... which is what your BF has been doing for a very long time. You are just choosing to not believe what you know to be a fact, and believe the story that he spins each time he tries to woo you back.

And honestly, it seems like he might be dancing his demons out in front of you one by one to see exactly what he will be able to get away with with you forever. He's proven he's an unemployed bum who lives in his parents basement (prize!). He's proven that he likes to at least talk to other women sexually and probably for some form of gratification. He's proven that he has a kink/fetish that he can't control. He's proven that he's happy continuing other sexual fantasy relationships even though you two are together. He's proven that he continues to hide and lie about more and more as time goes on. So what exactly is wonderful about this guy, other than the fact that you got all excited about a new relationship while you were still involved in your prior relationship? Is it hard for you to admit that you left a fiancé for such a loser, so you're going to hold on and try to turn this frog into a prince to prove that you didn't make a terrible mistake?

ETA: Sorry, just read where you said you have the option to get sexual gratification outside the relationship. Most often the wayward spouse gives this type of permission to the betrayed spouse as a way to have an automatic answer to their own actions. Such as "well, who cares if I masturbate and watch porn and chat with women online all day, you've been having sex with Jimmy, so we're even".

You guys are so far beyond playing with fire, there is just nothing healthy about this "relationship" at all. And trusting a guy that gives you the passwords to a computer that you'll never have access too (forget the passwords and email accounts he hands over, those are just the tip of the iceberg) is like trusting it to never rain on anyone's wedding day for all time and eternity.

[This message edited by doesitgetbetter at 12:09 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]

A few things. Support isn't about rainbows and butt pats as you say. Its also not about seeing something, having an opinion and curtailing it because that's not what the person wants to hear. You take what you need and leave the rest but my advice is to have an open mind to all the advice given, whether you agree with it or not. People are taking time to give you their opinion, not because they want to be right but because the people here truly want to help.

The other thing, you do seem to be getting defensive. Anytime someone gives you advice about your situation or your BF you say that we don't understand and give more information trying to change our opinions on how we're viewing your situation. While information helps us garner a broader view it may also help enforce opinions already in place. Don't be surprised or get defensive if peoples opinions stay the same or get more in depth with more information. As I said before read through it all and take what you need.

Now advice for your actual situation. I'm not going to tell you to leave but I am going to tell you to take a step back and review you relationship. It doesn't sound like you want this man or this relationships but rather what you think he has the potential to be. I feel like I'm not getting this out right. Basically I think you're trying to mold him into your idea of the ideal partner, perhaps it might be better to be alone for awhile and figure out who you truly are and what you truly want. Even if you decide to be with him I still think you need to do this for yourself.

As for the trust without verification. Well you haven't been with him that long so your verification process hasn't been going on that long either. If you want to stop verifying that's on you but if your doing it because its making him uncomfortable, well that's his issue. He needs to understand transparency is forever. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing so you not have access makes no sense to me. I'm sure I'll post more but there's a lot here to read through.

[This message edited by Unagie at 12:14 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]

How can he make good decisions and how can I trust him, if I can watch him? (Basically, it's easy to think, "Sure, he's doing good NOW, because I'm watching him") I don't want to get too into the habit that I need to be able to see everything all the time.

Advice? Options?

It is great to hear that he has been 100% transparent. That is a good sign. Checking on him will get to be exhausting though. I checked frequently and as time passed I did it less and less. It is a good short term solution. In your situation with him being 100% transparent I think you will still need to find a way to check on things that he does not know you are checking. It is easy for him to make sure he is good on the things he knows you know about - it is what you don't know about that is difficult to monitor. Read some stories here, people have done some amazing things to not get caught.

This is maybe where distance will be an issue. I think we would need to better understand your situation to understand what things you could do but if I were you I would need to have to check something he is not aware that I am checking. Maybe you need to be bold and after a few weeks of checking say you need to take his computer to an IT person to verify if he is being honest. If you do, take it right there, no chance to correct anything. I am just brainstorming here but you will need something to check actions.

Many people here, myself included, were told half truths after we discovered. In my case, a month after my DDay I found out my WW was still communicating with OM1 - "just as friends". Even after someone knows that this is it, no more lying, it is still difficult for them to tell the truth - sad to say but true.

The advice you would give a friend in that situation is often the advice we should have listened to when it came to ourselves. I wish i'd figured that out a lot sooner!

Regardless of your age, you need to define your boundaries and what you will and won't tolerate.

Empty threats of breaking up only to get back together only tells the OP that they can get away with their bad behavior.

He hasn't changed because he hasn't had to. You have always taken him back.

Yes, we all make mistakes and we all need and deserve 2nd chances but there also needs to be a line in the sand to say this is truly crossing the line and is a deal breaker.

You are better than being treated as an option. And the porn addiction is not healthy for any relationship.

You have to do what is right for you, however, in your gut I think you know you are setting yourself up for more disappointment and heartbreak.

Believe in yourself that you deserve better. Seek honesty, truth and healthy.

Good luck.

I don't know that your situation is really so unique.

Ultimately it's about crossing boundaries and lying about it. Period.

You have to decide when the boundary violations will be enough for you to cut ties, or that there is enough real substance in this relationship to make it a worthwhile emotional investment.

I am a little curious though, do you categorize "lies" by their size and importance the way you do "big slips and little slips"?

You see, I think any boundary crossing is a violation. Can he become trustworthy? Does he have it in him to really do the work?

Any lie, which would be any attempt to distort the truth, whether it be outright lies or omissions to be of equal weight. I'm not sure how effective it will be to weight one type of "slip" more than another. Every act of disrespect toward the relationship does damage. The question becomes, would you rather have it die from one big nuclear explosion or from a long painful series of small shots? I would be more inclined to look at the end goal here.

For the record, my own FWH and I started our entire relationship long distance. He cheated then too. I was too young and inexperienced to really comprehend complexity and longterm implications...as" he was sorry and it would never happen again." He behaved for the first 15 years and then he cheated within our M. And all the PA, was done in our home, with only a wall separating us by 10 feet. Proximity will definitely not solve any problems.

A few thoughts:

1. We have heard so often the whole "last chance" dance... then the little slip isn't enough to forgo the last chance... then another slip... then another. See the pattern? If this is a last chance, you both need to understand what that means. It's like telling a 2yo NO over and over and over again, yet giving in. You have taught that person that your NO (last chance) is meaningless. So just be sure you mean what you say and say what you mean.

2. You believe you have seen enough through his passwords,etc to have seen changes. I can tell you, even the best FWS can slip quickly when they get comfy in their own skin again. Mine started what I considered a *flirty* relationship with a coworker - he didn't even recognize his behavior at the time as slippery... and that was 6 years later. So don't be fooled into thinking that with so little time he is 100% healed. And what's to stop him from finding other sites and getting new accounts that you are not aware of?

3. He does sound like a SA. If that is a possibility he needs to be sure to find a counselor skilled in diagnosing and treating it... and find that therapist like yesterday. Like any addiction, he will go through withdrawl and will need to give up stuff like porn and the phone sex stuff. I'm not sure if the*one last chance* scenario you have stated - are you truly ready & able to support an addict through recovery?

4. I admit I am naive about the line of work you are in - but it doesn't seem conducive to exclusive relationships. I may be all wet with that, but I would think if he is SA it may be hard for him to be in a relationship with you. I don't mean that to belittle you at all. Just something to think about...

5. Get yourself into counseling with someone experienced in SA as well. You will need IRL support to deal with the daily pressures of this relationship.

6. I think you need a solid plan to bringing the two of you into the same city. Healing this long distance will be difficult as anyone can say anything when you are separated by so many miles.

Like others I think you should end the relationship, but others have told me the same through my ordeal as well. You know your situation best and all we can do is comment from our own perspectives. Just a bit of advice: Often the comments that make us the most angry and uncomfortable are the ones we need to examine further.

You sound incredibly intelligent so the only reason I can think of why you don't want to hear the advice being given here must be because you are so young & way too trusting for your own good.

I'm trying to hear what you are saying but I'm not sure you are "hearing" what these experienced folks are trying to say so I'm going to add my two cents.

I was your age when I met my husband. For reasons that defy explanation now, I was taken with him. Fast forward 37 years. Turns out he has had issues with porn for years & I never knew. He never left one speck of evidence. Here we are now with 3 grown children & 4 grandchildren & a new diagnosis of sex addiction. It started with the porn & masturbating then escalated to hookers & casual encounters all made possible by the Internet. I'm here with a whole family on the brink of disaster and a whole host of extenuating circumstances. You have nothing to lose by abandoning this relationship except possibly becoming healthier.

After a prolonged period of time of masturbating to porn, there becomes a real disconnect from reality. It is truly a battle for the rest of their life. I hope you examine your motives for wanting to pursue a relationship with someone who in all probability may not be capable of the truest form of intimacy. I hope you really think about it & please, by all means, keep reading about what porn addiction does to the brain.

And just for the record, if you are getting sexual gratification outside of this relationship, does that not qualify your BF as betrayed as well? Just sayin......

Part of me just wants to say:

Wow! You sound really together and on top of this situation.

I hesitate to leave it at that, though, because it sounds like you want something from this guy and yourself and this relationship that's probably impossible to get.

****************************

I want more than anything to reconcile with him. I want to make this relationship work. He really seems like he wants it to work, too.

What would the relationship look like if it were working?

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I think all your words are masking some important stuff - from you and from everybody else. Can you describe your issue in terms a 4 year old could understand?

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What's he supposed to do for sexual pleasure when he's far away from you?

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Are you in, or do you want, an open relationship?

If not, I find what sounds like a claim that you've had sex outside your relationship disturbing.

IMO, a relationship is either open or closed. If yours is not open, having sex with someone other than your BF sounds like cheating, and you don't sound remorseful about it. That's your choice, but I can't and won't support you in that choice.

But I'm not sure of what you're saying.... For example, if you're in an open relationship, and your outside sex is within your agreement, then it's likely not to be chetaing.

Confusedly yours,

sisoon

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:38 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]

Hey all, going to try to go through and answer some questions. Some things were asked back on the first page about what plans are happening, what he's doing, etc.

I'm willing to give him a small amount of leeway for not having any interviews yet, since this serious "come to Jesus" discussion didn't happen until last week. Prior, I HAD been too "understanding" of his lack of motivation. I was having a hard time finding a job at that point, too, so I empathized with the trouble. He had, in the past, been applying to jobs, though likely infrequently, and hadn't had an interview. As of now, he has been much more serious about finding a job and applying. No interviews yet, but like I said, this is relatively new. I can accept that even if I want change NOW, I will have to wait a little bit to see results.

He's dealt with a lot of family crap over the years, especially and mostly during his childhood, which is definitely not an excuse, but I can understand how he managed to get into a rut of depression and no motivation. The important thing to me now, is what he does from now onward.

I am a little curious though, do you categorize "lies" by their size and importance the way you do "big slips and little slips"?

I guess it probably does come off as making excuses when I use the qualifiers "big" or "little" to describe a slip. I, personally, feel like the slip itself can be a big one or a little one. Much like a real slip. You can trip up a little and still keep moving forward, or you can slip and take a major fall. So, yeah, a little slip is one that under different circumstances (ie: without the lying) wouldn't have been a big deal. We'd have talked about it and tried to figure out how to keep it from happening. A LIE, on the other hand, is still a lie regardless of how "big" or "little" it is. That's why I considered it a breach of "contract" when he lied about the "little" slip.

In other words: the action itself, I consider small. The lying is big regardless.

6. I think you need a solid plan to bringing the two of you into the same city. Healing this long distance will be difficult as anyone can say anything when you are separated by so many miles.

This was something also mentioned back on the first page, and I want to address it. This is new for us, so we don't have a date set or anything, but there IS a plan in place. I've already told him, that as a condition of us working things out, he needs to save some cash and move near me ASAP. This was already agreed on, and he will be the one doing the moving.

And just for the record, if you are getting sexual gratification outside of this relationship, does that not qualify your BF as betrayed as well? Just sayin......

More on that in a minute, since it was mentioned further down as well.

What would the relationship look like if it were working?

I'll start by saying that, yeah, "working" is a really weak way to describe things. To me, a "working" relationship with him is one where we are on the same page, working on the same team, for the same things. Specifically, open, honest communication from both parties. Which for the most part, we have already. Not enough, of course, or I wouldn't be here. I know that dealing with his porn issues are going to be something we deal with for a long time, if not forever. I've read through a lot of forum posts, etc about Sexual Addiction, and while I see a lot of similarities, I'm not positive that he's truly there. This is another great reason why he needs to see a therapist. But, I come with my own baggage, too, and a "working" relationship means that we acknowledge each other's baggage and try to improve on those things together.

I think all your words are masking some important stuff - from you and from everybody else. Can you describe your issue in terms a 4 year old could understand?

Ack.. that's probably the hardest question yet. Going to give it a shot.

My bf has hurt me in the past, and has hurt me in different ways not very long ago. I want to help him find a way to stop hurting me, and himself. I want both of us to be happy, and that means these things need to stop. My biggest problem right now is the current lying. I want him to see a therapist and maybe a doctor to talk to them about how he can get help.

What's he supposed to do for sexual pleasure when he's far away from you?

This is one of our issues that stems from my issues. Or more correctly, stems from my issues after being triggered by his cheating.

I mentioned before about my own porn problems that I had made a lot of progress with. When all of this started happening, I was really in a new situation for me and didn't know what the "right" way to go about it was. Basically, what happened was: he would cheat, I would impose restrictions. Something would happen again and I would tighten the restrictions. Finally, all of the issues finally came to light and I really understood the magnitude of what I was dealing with. At this point, I would have the same feeling that I got when he would do something as simple as masturbate. (And I mean that like, "I'm tired and need to go to sleep, I'll just masturbate quickly to help with no aid") I mentioned before that logically, I feel like he shouldn't have a restriction on the act of masturbating in and of itself. The aid, etc, might be up for discussion though. Emotionally, it's a little more of a struggle to deal with it. But I feel like I am working on that, too. I actually bought him a sex-toy for his birthday to use.

Under normal circumstances (before this current lying issue), he and I would masturbate together. I had been very busy for the last month dealing with things and visiting my grandfather that we never had a chance to "play together". I think this is what caused a buildup and acting out. (*Note! I do not take responsibility for his actions. THOSE we all on him, as he could have just as easily talked to me about it and it would be a non-issue.)

He has already told me he has no interest in seeking a in-person sexual relationship with another person and we're obviously not even thinking about online things. Though there have been times where we have role-played together.

Are you in, or do you want, an open relationship?

Complicated question. We're what Dan Savage calls "monogamish" meaning, we're not in an open relationship, but it isn't closed either. We've had loooong discussions about all of this, and there's absolutely nothing I've done that he didn't know about prior and that he didn't know about after.

He doesn't have an interest in having his side of the relationship be open. I don't have an interest in taking on another partner in a romantic sense. Every once in awhile, I don't mind having a sexual partner. I have only ever been with one other person outside of our relationship and everything went through bf first, so this is in no way cheating.

I also don't feel like this is a "we're even" type of manipulation on his part (which was suggested earlier). He doesn't use it against me, and never has. In fact, if anything, he has been beyond clear to me that I have in NO way been the cause or reason for any of his problems.

He doesn't have an interest in having his side of the relationship be open

As evidenced by what? As evidenced by his kink/fetish that he would partake in? As evidenced by his having sexual conversations with a friend of yours without your knowledge? As evidenced by the fact that you felt cheated on enough to come here for advice?

Seriously, you have got to take off those rose colored glasses and face this for all of what it is.

Temperance,

Just remember the one characteristic that ALL addicts share is that they LIE!

I am still choosing to stick with him.

I think that is clear. You have made a decision and it seems as though with all of your well thought out responses, and most certain intelligence, this is exactly what you intend to do. So I won't waste any time telling you things you don't want to hear. But I can't tell you things you do want to hear. For that I am sorry. While I love to bet on the long shot, I've learned that kind of betting doesn't pay off. I am much better off betting on me.

I’m hoping for a better response here.

If your goal is to only find ways to reinforce the decision you have already made, you don't that from us or anyone else.

We can provide you with what to look for, things to consider and ways you can frame your situation and that's about it.

You will still do what you want, and you are going to go into this with your eyes wide open so you already know that you must accept that the outcome is uncertain.

And your ultimate question was this...

How do I get over the feelings of betrayal?

You won't ever "get over" them. You can get through them, come to terms with their existence and maybe live along side them. As long as the problem exists, there will be new betrayals one after the other. So until he makes the decision to adjust his behavior, or you make the decision to accept it and be ok with it, you will continue to feel betrayed and be put in situations to process them.

But let me ask you this.

Why did you choose this guy to invest in emotionally? So much about him seems so....unavailable. And honestly if you are investing in potential, I hope that you understand that you will have absolutely NO control over it. NONE.

It seems to me that you are trying to fix him.

I want to help him find....(fill in the blank)

You can't.

And please keep in mind in all of this....lying is about control. The person who has the information and hides it, is maintaining control by doing so. That is manipulation in its most basic form.

He doesn't have an interest in having his side of the relationship be open. I don't have an interest in taking on another partner in a romantic sense. Every once in awhile, I don't mind having a sexual partner. I have only ever been with one other person outside of our relationship and everything went through bf first, so this is in no way cheating.

All of us are here because our partners didn't think that sex outside of our relationship was a big deal. In a healthy relationship, both parties should have enough respect for themselves and one another so that intimacy with someone else is abhorrent to them. Getting his "permission" is simply you seeking justification for doing something that should never, ever be considered.

Your relationship started in a fantasy world. You were both play acting. Reality casts a harsh light that reveals every flaw.

From what I've read, you need to focus on yourself and stop worrying about him. There's no such thing as being "monogamish" in a strong, loving relationship. It's demeaning for both parties.

May I suggest some serious introspection. It may help you to determine what a strong, loving relationship should consist of. Clearly, there's nothing that you've said that indicates that this situation is nothing but a train wreck.

I know you think your situation is unique, but it isn't.

I met my wife online 20 years ago. That's before the Internet moved to CIDR address ranges. So your age placing you in your early 20's means I was in a similar situation while you were in diapers. Just for some perspective.

That said, don't dismiss the advice of many people who took the time to help you as the words of scorned and bitter women. Some of them envy your youth and the hopes you still have and don't want to see that wasted on someone who doesn't appreciate it. It's not bitterness so much as familiarity.

From my own experience with RP forums - I have no idea what genre you're involved in, if it's FFRP or ERP or some kind of structured world or just some sex thing - you have absolutely no idea what he is doing. Those forums are a place where people go to play at being someone else. It's not difficult and not rare for people to present their real selves as something other than they actually are. You met for ten days so you can verify for yourself what he was doing then, but beyond that you honestly have no idea.

Going even further, you have as much as stated that you've broken up. You can't even call yourself "monogamish" - which is basically just another way of saying open marriage but with no rules and an invitation to a lot of hurt, IMO - because you're not actually in a relationship. You can lay out rules and expectations until the cows come back to Far Side comics but if you aren't actually dating then it doesn't mean much of anything beyond what you require from him to resume a relationship. Hoping he will change is great and all but you cannot control his behavior and going into a relationship with someone hoping to change that person is so beyond cliche it's hard to even speak to without sounding like some stupid pop-psychology book. The man he is there, with all those problems, is the man he is always going to be. He can change, yes, and he can manage all that and become a better version of who he is, but that's his process and your help will always be incidental, not centrally transformative.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:23 AM, June 4th (Tuesday)]

duplicate

[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:22 AM, June 4th (Tuesday)]

I have read all your responses, trying to wrap my head around your situation and mindset.

The conclusion I have come to is that you can't, as someone else already said, overcome the feelings because plain and simple, you are both cheating. You claim that it is okay for you to seek sexual release with another party. No matter how you spin it, that is cheating. Also, your issue is with him masturbating. However, based on your description of your relationship, your sec life WITH him is him and you masturbating basically via skype. His behavior whether via online conversations etc with others is most likely the same thing. He is masturbating to a computer screen to you and others. You are not in a relationship that you think. This may sound harsh but it is what I see based on the facts you have given.

If not the case, why are you "negotiating" these boundaries. They should be either acceptable or not.

Just posting to let everybody know that they were right.

Not entirely right, since no, having permission to have sex outside a relationship is NOT cheating. That's ridiculous.

And he and I DID have a "real relationship". Real in that I was committed to it and him and real in that this hurts like a bitch. It was real.

I broke up with him last night. Completely officially. No more. I'm not going back to him even if it seems like I have a really great time going back to him and being trampled like a pile of garbage again and again.

I never want to even see another man for the rest of my life.

I'm sorry you're hurting, temperance.

(((temperance)))

What are you going to do to make sure that all ties remain cut with your ex?

What you feel is real. Work on that. But also work to see the reality of the situation, work to see how those feelings became real to you.