SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You know, I think every single poster here on either side of the fence, not currently in the fog, is in complete agreement that adultery is completely wrong and immoral. And I also think it can be really narrow and limiting to consider "blame" to be defined as: was X person in the wrong? We all already agree that the OP was wrong. We all already agree that the WS was wrong.

So why not look more closely at the issue rather than all posting about how much we agree that the OP was absolutely wrong? Of course they were. That doesn't address the "blame" issue completely though, so clearly there's more to it than just being wrong.

It really irritates me when I hear/read that phrase "the AP didn't make vows or promises to me".

I think it's a mischaracterization to make this phrase sound as if it's absolving the OP for responsibility for the A. I do not believe that the posters who write this are saying the OP was not wrong, was not bad, was not responsible for their actions. Again - pretty sure we ALL agree that they are.

Speaking for myself, that phrase is talking more about the MARRIAGE than the affair. Obviously the "affair partners" - meaning our WS and the OP - are by definition responsible for the affair. But when we're discussing VOWS, we're discussing marriage. And the OP isn't part of our marriage, therefore I think it would be respectful to acknowledge that it can be appropriate, healing and beneficial to place responsibility on our spouse for things that can only truly be changed by the two people within our marriage.

I recognize that really the R forum is about just that - looking into the marriage and rebuilding, without the endless energy focusing on the OP can sap from that pursuit. And that there's a great time and place for heaping venting and anger on the OP if that's how we're feeling, and General is certainly perfect for that. I'm not knocking it. I needed that too.

But I would not characterize addressing marital issues between only the two people in the marriage as "wayward thinking" in the slightest. And I'm not sure that a BS who focuses on their marriage and their spouse for the fault, blame, and answers is experiencing "wayward thinking".

The OW is 50% to blame. She may not have made a vow to me and did not even know me. However, everyone has the obligation to be a decent member of society and not to harm others. Yet, the OW knowingly particpated in a destructive act against me and actually had the nerve to expect me to feel sorry for her afterward. Is this the way decent people behave? No.

I had to laugh when I read this post because I just posted the same sentiment today. I think when I say that the AP didn't make promises to me, what I'm saying is that I realize that this intense anger is misdirected and I should be this mad at my WS. We all know that it is normal to try and somewhat protect our feelings about our WS because they can't really be this horrible...we picked them, right?

I feel like when I say things like that it is so other people know that I know that she isn't the real enemy in my marriage. If it wasn't this OW, it probably would have been another OW...because the problem was and is with my WS. He is the broken one who decided to go outside the marriage. Did he have help? Yes he did. She colluded with him to lie and deceive, but I guess when I say acknowledge that she didn't make a vow to me it is my way of saying I'm not totally nutso...but I hate this B anyway.

the AP didn't make vows or promises to me

I understand what you are trying to say in that the above is not an excuse for their poor judgement and disrespectful behavior.

However, maybe I just look at it differently but I didn't make any vows or promises to them so honestly I could careless about them. They are not a friend or even an acquaintance that I even have the smallest of feelings for. They are just some random person to me and based on their poor actions I want absolutely nothing to do with them. I could care less if they learn to fix whatever is wrong with them or not. When I am in a weak state, yes I have thoughts about the karma bus hitting them but then I think why do I even give them that much thought. For me to take the time to try to assess how much they are to blame, I would actual have to care if that even matters. I am not going to even show them that much respect because they have shown me none in return.

Is that wayward thinking? Am I rugsweeping by not thinking about how they contributed to my WWs LTA? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't - I just don't care about them enough to even take the time to consider it.

I think it's a mischaracterization to make this phrase sound as if it's absolving the OP for responsibility for the A. I do not believe that the posters who write this are saying the OP was not wrong, was not bad, was not responsible for their actions. Again - pretty sure we ALL agree that they are.

Speaking for myself, that phrase is talking more about the MARRIAGE than the affair. Obviously the "affair partners" - meaning our WS and the OP - are by definition responsible for the affair. But when we're discussing VOWS, we're discussing marriage. And the OP isn't part of our marriage, therefore I think it would be respectful to acknowledge that it can be appropriate, healing and beneficial to place responsibility on our spouse for things that can only truly be changed by the two people within our marriage.

I recognize that really the R forum is about just that - looking into the marriage and rebuilding, without the endless energy focusing on the OP can sap from that pursuit. And that there's a great time and place for heaping venting and anger on the OP if that's how we're feeling, and General is certainly perfect for that. I'm not knocking it. I needed that too.

But I would not characterize addressing marital issues between only the two people in the marriage as "wayward thinking" in the slightest. And I'm not sure that a BS who focuses on their marriage and their spouse for the fault, blame, and answers is experiencing "wayward thinking".

Well said, thank you!

When i make that statement I am not giving the AP absolution, but I am saying my WH holds more responsibility for my heart and my hurt than the AP ever could. LIke I said in the last thread about this, yes the AP should choose to be a decent person, but when they don't, I can't give the same weight to their offense against me that I give to my WH. He owed me more than she ever could have. She is responsible for her actions in the affair, he is responsible for his actions and he WAS responsible for my heart, I no longer give him that honor and she never had it.

I absolutely agree with you

On some other sites for OW, I've seen them say that the BS is a "witch", and if she wasn't such a mean horrid person, then the WH wouldn't need a sweet OW like them.

What about the girl code? Shouldn't we expect women to leave MM alone? Just because I'm a girl and you're a girl, and we wouldn't do that to each other?

I wish my WH had slept with someone I didn't know. But as my best friend, the OW stabbed me hard! It's such a betrayal to tell your BFF about your marriage issues and then to have her use that against you. Where is the love? I wouldn't have done that to her, even if she was married to Channing Tatum and he was professing his love for me. I wouldn't do it!

I'm one of those 'guilty' of saying that the AP didn't owe me anything. I did not say it to absolve her of any culpability; she was as responsible for the A as the X was. I say it in that I expect nothing of the AP and I care nothing for the AP. I didn't fight for my M to get the AP to apologize or feel guilty--I couldn't care less how she feels.

I see members on this site agonize over why the AP did not apologize and I also see them say that they blame the AP for 'tempting' or 'tricking' their WS--I see this as BS blameshifting, and THIS gets my goat.

I won't even qualify my explanation for APs who are the BS's bff. I still would not expect (or accept) an apology from anyone whom I considered a bff who betrayed my trust. I did not promise them anything (as opposed to my WS) so I would cut them off without a second thought.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks all for your thoughts, perspectives and responses. An extra thank you to the waywards that did weigh in as I know it can sometimes be intimidating posting in General as you make yourself vulnerable to some pissed off BS's at times.

I would like to respond to some specific posters, but I don't have the time right now. However, I did want to throw something else out there to consider. Especially to those who don't feel that "the AP didn't take vows" isn't wayward thinking.

There are many couples who live together. They don't make vows are even promises. I know when my boyfriend and I moved in together we didn't make vows or promises. We made some assumptions that we were going to be exclusive and monogamous, but we didn't ever specifically say "I promise not to cheat on you." It was implied.

If one of us had cheated, and we then said "Well, I never promised you or made any vows that I wouldn't cheat!" isn't that wayward thinking? No promises or vows were ever spoken so is the partner not guilty?

Also, if the AP didn't make promise or vows to us and that it is irrelevant to the marriage, why even bring it up? Of course the AP didn't make promises or vows to us, that is obvious, and to me, it comes off sounding rather condescending to throw that in.

ETA: Maybe it could be better said "My WS broke his promises and vows to me" and leave it at that and not add in the part where the obvious is stated that the AP didn't.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 9:45 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)]

SMS, I've posted on this before. I absolutely believe it's 100% WS and 100% OP. Marriage is a contract made not just between two people but society. It's a recognized contract with local, state,  government and witnessed on behalf of all of us. What 'your God's name here' has brought together let no one  tear asunder. It's really just that simple. Don't fuck with that union.

Where the wheels come off is when some BS's focus solely on the OP and make the WS a victim. That's a disaster. Well, they were at a weak point. Yeah, because I throw myself in front of speeding cars when I feel under the weather. We are not victims anymore than hangover sufferers are victims.

(Feeling quite offended at repeatedly being told that I have wayward thinking.... not exactly what a BS likes to hear especially when later comments were completely ignored)

I have repeatedly stated over my several years here that the AP is responsible for their part in the A, however the conversation in question was asking if one blames the AP or the WS. If you're asking me who is to blame for MY HUSBAND cheating on me, then it is solely MY HUSBAND'S responsibility that he cheated on me. My H was not raped, therefor it is not the AP's "fault" that he cheated.

I also stated that it definitely is not moral or right for the AP to have that attitude, but that still doesn't make the affair their fault. My H has an obligation to me, and society doesn't seem to care about what is moral or right anymore. Because of that, I can't expect some stranger to feel a moral pull to not mess with my marriage vows, but I can sure as heck expect my H to honor them.

What I have always maintained is that the AP was the accessory to the murder of my soul. Guilty? Hell yeah. But even if she handed him the gun, he still pulled the trigger.

I do agree that the "AP didn't owe me anything" isn't an accurate statement. Much like what Razor and UO stated, we live in a civilized society where social norms and constraints exist for a reason. She OWED ME the common human decency of not fucking with my kids lives, at the very least.

I also agree totally with UO that the problem which occurs when we fight too hard to make the AP to blame, is the risk of removing blame from the wayward. As I have moved through this process, I have blamed him more and more, and her less.

As to your original question, is it wayward thinking...yeah, I think so. Anything that causes other people harm which you minimize, is a problem.

doesitgetbetter ~ this wasn't directed at you, as several posters posted the same thing repeatedly. And, as you see, there is a question mark on my topic. I am asking everyone's opinion if they feel this is wayward thinking, and as you can see, some feel it is, some don't, and some aren't sure.

I feel it is wayward thinking. Doesn't mean it is, just simply my opinion. Just as it is your opinion that "the AP didn't make any vows or promises to me". I didn't ignore your statements, it just didn't further clarify for me how that isn't wayward thinking.

The OW that I knew years ago made that statement. That she was doing nothing wrong, she didn't make vows or promises. Is that wayward or "foggy" thinking? If you feel that it is, how does that magically transform into non-wayward thinking when a BS makes the same statement? That is my question. No one has really clarified that for me.

Unless, of course, you feel that what the OW was stating is true. She wasn't doing anything wrong because she didn't make any vows or promises to you. Now, if you feel she did something wrong in spite of not making any vows or promises, I simply ask, why do you throw in that statement, that she didn't make any vows or promises to you? Just state she is wrong and leave the vows and promises out as they have absolutely nothing to do with it.

It takes 2 people to be in an affair. Yes? Does not take 1. Your WS could not just cheat on his own.

People steal, people murder, people rape, people skimp on rent, people lie to their parents, people lie to their friends......

Yet when it comes to banging someone else we all hold up our hands and say "nope" not a bad thing. Nope not my fault.

Except when you are the one who has had this done upon you.

It takes two people to rob a bank, whether the person is the one in the bank or the car driver, they both get blamed. Many times the WS is planning on stealing from the household funds, or the kids college fund, or just everyday stuff like lunches or dinners or hotel rooms with the AP that are unknown and when found add up to $thousands$ of dollars by the BS.

When you sneak around and lie to the person who you are saying you are in partnership with you are stealing from them.

Yet society for thousands of years does not want to say that sex with someone else while in a partnership is stealing. Because people won't talk about sex.

Money, cars, stocks, bonds, kids, dogs, cats, furniture, 401K's......ALL a commodity.

Sex. Is a commodity. People seek it all the time, in affairs or whatever....yet no one wants to put it into any VALUE when caught or in trouble with their marriage.

That she was doing nothing wrong, she didn't make vows or promises. Is that wayward or "foggy" thinking? If you feel that it is, how does that magically transform into non-wayward thinking when a BS makes the same statement? That is my question. No one has really clarified that for me.

It's a matter of perspective.

When OW says it, she is talking about herself and absolving herself of responsibility for the affair.

When I as a BS am saying it, I am talking about the responsibility for maintaining my marriage and saying the OW is not part of the marriage, therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

This many years out, I'm hardly in "a fog" and have "wayward thinking" for not believing the OW is part of my marriage.

Can you please point me to the post in which a BS has said that the OW "isn't doing anything wrong" by having the affair?

Can you please point me to the post in which a BS has said that the OW "isn't doing anything wrong" by having the affair?

Many seem to be missing the point of my post and why it sounds like wayward thinking.

I understand that you, circe, and many others are saying the AP was wrong and has some blame (some don't think they have any, too) and responsibility. What I am asking is why does that have anything to do with vows and promises? The AP's are wrong regardless of whether or not they made vows or promises to us. So why do people say, "My WS is the one to blame, afterall, the AP's didn't make vows or promises to us" ?

eta: Many of the BS's were saying the AP is wrong but not to blame. Really don't get the difference so much. And I believe the AP is equally to blame. No, my FWH isn't blamed more because he is my husband. I can understand peoples point that they don't have any expectations of a stranger to have any loyalty to them, that still doesn't absolve them from blame.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 6:55 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]

. So why do people say, "My WS is the one to blame, afterall, the AP's didn't make vows or promises to us" ?

eta: Many of the BS's were saying the AP is wrong but not to blame. Really don't get the difference so much. And I believe the AP is equally to blame. No, my FWH isn't blamed more because he is my husband. I can understand peoples point that they don't have any expectations of a stranger to have any loyalty to them, that still doesn't absolve them from blame.

I've been trying to explain my perspective, but maybe it's not coming across well, or maybe it is but it's something that comes later in the R process? I don't know.

One last shot for me. I'll only speak from my own perspective.

Me and my husband are on the inside of our marriage. OW is on the outside. There is nothing in this world, IMO, that the OW can do to affect our marriage. This is a BLESSING. To me, this is a gift. The gift of marriage to me is that it is a home built around two people. We have children, yes, but even they do not make decisions about the bond between me and my husband.

The affair was an affront to my marriage, but the OW doesn't have any right to say what that affront was, or was not, because she is an outsider. It would be like me commenting on the politics of France - I can have an opinion, but I don't get a vote. OW can have an opinion about her place in the affair and our marriage, she can flap her mouth all day long about her guilt or innocence - but the only people who are TRULY invested and involved are me and my husband, and therefore we alone have the right, the privilege, the benefit, AND the responsibility for our marriage. Therefore - the blame and the buck stop at the two people who are the sole owners of our bond - me, and my husband.

The OW can be to blame for making an amoral decision, but she can not be to blame for the decisions of our marriage - for better or worse.

Just as I would never accept my child having done something wrong with one of his friends coming home to me trying to say that Bobby from next door was also to blame for their transgressions, because Bobby did the bad stuff, too. I would tell my son that Bobby was equally wrong, but because Bobby is not part of our family I really don't care about his role in the wrongdoing. He can be wrong on his own dime. My primary focus is my own family and their actions and their choices.

The OW can never take blame for my marriage because she's an outsider. There are only two insiders, and she isn't one of them. She can take blame for being a sad amoral cow, sure, when the subject is "what are you like as a human being?" - but when the subject is "the marriage between circe and Mr. circe", she simply doesn't have a place, good or bad.

When the OW tries to absolve herself of responsibility for her actions, she's trying to say that she wasn't wrong. And of course she was wrong. When I say the OW didn't have responsibility *for my marriage*, I'm trying to say that she doesn't have a role in the sacred bond between me and my husband. It's two different perspectives. When she says it, she's speaking as an outsider. When I say it, I'm speaking as an insider. It doesn't make a difference if our words are similar or different - they come from two sides of a huge chasm, and therefore any resemblance to each other is purely superficial.

*scratching head* Okay, I think I may understand where your perspective is coming from, circe. I don't know if the others who say that phrase mean that same thing as you, though.

And I will agree that the AP isn't to blame for anything in your marriage, except in intruding in it, but the AP is fully to blame for its part in the affair. Affair and marriage are two different things. *shrugs*

I do also feel this may be a semantics thing.

Well, the original post that this came from, I read as asking who it was that ***I*** blamed for the A.

There is no right thinking to that question. It was asking for an opinion.

Initially, some BS may only blame the AP and see their WS as a victim. Some, especially when it was a double betrayal blame both, some blame thier spouse only.

We can all say cheating is wrong so both people are responsible for the A. On this website, that it pretty much preaching to the choir.

In the real world, not everyone shares that value, sadly. In fact, lots of people in the world do not share the values I hold. Hence, I don't have intimate relationships with lots of them.

The AP shares no values with me, no relationship with me - it is a nobody.

I understand your perspective, I can say in an ideal world I would share it. But there is precious little left anymore that *everyone* in our society agrees is right or wrong.

Not wasting my energy giving a fiddler's fart about the AP and their culpability isn't wayward thinking on my part in my book. It is okay that we don't share that value.

It really is.

Not wasting my energy giving a fiddler's fart about the AP and their culpability isn't wayward thinking on my part in my book.

Didn't say that at all. Don't really understand how you got that from what I was asking.

I am talking about a specifice phrase/statement. As an OW used that exact phrase to me,(I didn't make vows, etc...), it is a trigger for me. Also, coming from her mouth, it seems like that is wayward thinking, to me.

Nowhere did I say that people who don't give a "fiddler's fart" about the cupablility of the AP is wayward thinking.

As your registration date is 2008, I would assume (can be wrong) that your d-day was around that time. I hope I am in that place after being 5 years post d-day, JustWow.

I understand that we all don't have to agree with everyone here. That we are all different and have different values. And that is okay. I am just trying to make sense out of something that some BS's say that doesn't make sense to me.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 9:15 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]