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Yesterday I worked. WH and my son got to go to lunch, shopping , and other kinds of fun with my parents. Was just supposed to be DS, how WH wound up going I don't know.

They all go home, DS goes to enjoy his new toys. WH starts telling me about the day. Since it was about my family and my son I listened. Then he transitioned into bitching about a neighbor. I said "if you're done talking about my family, I'll be going now". He asked why. I said I don't have any interest in sitting here listening to you complain about the neighbor.

He says "you never talk to me anymore".

I calmly reminded him that he hasn't wanted to talk to me for the last 2 years, the one he spent mooning over her and the last year he spent in misery without her so why should I want to listen to him about ANYTHING?

He said "you're just being spiteful, didn't we just have a nice day at <amusement park> with your family?"

I said "no, I had a nice day at <amusement park>, YOU had a nice day at <amusement park>...WE didn't do anything. it has nothing to do with spite. it is what it is"

There was some other blah, blah, blah in there, he walks away, goes to the kitchen he's still mumbling, I'm gathering my things to head to my room and withdraw and I don't know what he said, something about "that's it? this doesn't matter to you?" I honestly didn't understand what he was asking but I said "no, I have spent the last month coming to terms with the fact that *I*, my happiness, my safety, don't matter to you as much as YOURs and HERs, so no, I'm trying to figure out how much you matter or you don't - don't f with me".

That was that.

We all walked to the fireworks. My kid played with his friends. WH avoided me like I had leprosy. We came home, he went to the couch and wouldn't even speak to my son who just happily went on ignoring him having a conversation with him

I had to take a pill to sleep.

Not a great night.

I'm pretty sure I messed up the whole 180 thing and I don't even see where I went wrong.

Oh and somewhere in there was the accusation that I've got a boyfriend.

wthellever

I think you did quite well in establishing your boundaries.

I don't see an error in the 180. Like Heavy Sigh said, you reinforced your boundaries.

And OF COURSE you have a boyfriend! If HE has a girlfriend, you must be cheating, too. Cheater's Handbook 101: Deflect, and Project.

I feel like I talked too much, explained too much and maybe sounded needy???

Do you think so?

And snarky and spiteful would have been saying in reply to me having a boyfriend..."no, I believe one should fully resolve their current relationship before starting another. unlike some people".

I went back to look at your previous post.

My assumption from this post is that he is seeing the OW. He is not, but had some painful (for you) withdrawal from her.

So where do you wish to go from here? Divorce or reconciliation? You are in limbo right now, and it can't stay that way forever.

So you need to decide which it's going to be.

1. Meet him halfway at times such as this when it seems as if he is trying to be a better dad, as you had asked him to be.

2. Or decide it was all a deal-breaker and file for divorce and keep your distance.

There is only one midway option, and that is to explain to him in a less tense moment that you were deeply hurt by his treatment of you. That you are in counseling to overcome the rejection, and having to watch him pine over some other woman for a year. That if he needed a two years away from you emotionally as a vacation from his role as husband and father, then you expect that it counseling it will take you at least two years to get over having been emotionally abandoned.

Question: Why is he out of a job? A bad job market? Outdated skills?

He should at the least be volunteering to help organizations that need manpower, if he's doing nothing else, to get him out of the house, out of depression and self-absorption.

If you choose to reconcile, then he might not be ready one day if he sees this time as you kicking him while he was down, so both of you need to deal with the "now." If he can't/won't get a job, then he can mow lawns of elderly ladies for free, run errands, take old folks who can't drive to doctor appointments and become useful to make himself feel better.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 10:07 AM, July 5th (Friday)]

If anything, is sounds like the 180 has been working!

Heavy Sigh - thank you very much for your insight and thoughts!

I went back to look at your previous post.

My assumption from this post is that he is seeing the OW. He is not, but had some painful (for you) withdrawal from her.

Correct. For the first year he was working with her and I knew nothing until he got fired. Then for the past year of him not seeing her but still occassionally trying to contact without success I have been focusing on just taking care of everything and letting him "be" while learning to be happy with me and making my life what I want it to be - grad school woo!

So where do you wish to go from here? Divorce or reconciliation? You are in limbo right now, and it can't stay that way forever.

That is what hit me a month ago when he made one last ditch attempt at seeing her, sitting in a parking lot near her work for a whole f'ing day then told me he was worried he was going to be arrested for stalking. I thought "WTH am I doing sitting in limbo, where do I want to go." So I found SI and I began IC. I really don't know what I want and I think its a bit unfair to have to decide and commit right now. One day I want to never see him again and get rid of him. Other days I think that is harsh, painful for all, including my son. But then I think he has shown no remorse, etc. like SI says he should. He has no transparency. He has not ever once wanted to answer my questions or talk. Why bother to try anymore? move on? I just don't know yet.

So you need to decide which it's going to be.

IF he said that to me today it would be divorce. But I didn't take the decision to marry him lightly so I'd like to not make that decision rashly or emotionally so I want to think. and I don't think I am thinking too clearly all the time right now.

1. Meet him halfway at times such as this when it seems as if he is trying to be a better dad, as you had asked him to be.

I used to try that. Then he takes it as everything is hunky dory, all fixed, lets have sex. And I'm left feeling like a cold harpy. I don't think that is fair.

2. Or decide it was all a deal-breaker and file for divorce and keep your distance.

I'm almost there because he has not shown me anything that would indicate any effort on my part would all be one sided.

There is only one midway option, and that is to explain to him in a less tense moment that you were deeply hurt by his treatment of you. That you are in counseling to overcome the rejection, and having to watch him pine over some other woman for a year. That if he needed a two years away from you emotionally as a vacation from his role as husband and father, then you expect that it counseling it will take you at least two years to get over having been emotionally abandoned.

I maybe need to write that down. I think I have tried to explain that to him but do a VERY bad job of it and then feel bad so I don't try to explain it anymore.

Question: Why is he out of a job? A bad job market? Outdated skills?

He had his own business, was seriously injured, his dad and step brother took the whole thing from him which then tanked with the housing crash. After that he tried the army and didn't make it. After that he tried nurses aid until he was fired for too many write ups (people out to get him). After that he didn't work for a bit, then went to work at a big box store where he met his EA. Worked there for 4 years. the last year loving her without reciprocity. Fired from that. Went next door to another big box store where once again someone was out to get him and get him fired. He expressed interest in going back to school when I did. I told him I thought that was a great idea and supported him quitting that store so he could focus on school (he doesn't have my practice at working f/t and schooling f/t). He never signed up for school and now says he was stupid for thinking he could do that, its too hard. He just recently (about a year later) has started to say he should get a job. I told him I wasn't judging him for working/not working, to do what made him happy. I honestly didn't care.

He should at the least be volunteering to help organizations that need manpower, if he's doing nothing else, to get him out of the house, out of depression and self-absorption.

He volunteered with activities my son was in - one rejected him because of a poor judgment call at an event. He still does others. He keeps my car running so I don't have to buy a new one - that is a major accomplishment LOL. He helps my family when they need it - he fixes things for my dad. He is the one who goes to all the school functions, chaperones, builds floats for parades, etc. I have told him no one will judge him for stopping those things and working or not working and doing those things, it is HOW he is when he does whatever so he should pick what makes him happy because its easier to do whatever it is well (I should know stuck in misery job for 10 years).

If you choose to reconcile, then he might not be ready one day if he sees this time as you kicking him while he was down, so both of you need to deal with the "now."

I have been very careful to NOT do that to the point it was detrimental to my healing, my feelings of value and self-worth which is why I started IC which is when he totally shut down. I wasn't even careful so much for him or my feelings for him but because of our son, he needs a good strong, healthy dad in his life. Why tear him down?

If he can't/won't get a job, then he can mow lawns of elderly ladies for free, run errands, take old folks who can't drive to doctor appointments and become useful to make himself feel better.

When I met him and married him and he had his business - he used to do all these things AND work (of course before we had a kid). he still TALKS about stuff like that but doesn't LIVE it anymore.

Which is why I always encouraged him to go to IC - not because I thought he was broken for loving this OW or missing her, I understand how something like that could happen, told him it was ok, it was what we did with the now that mattered and he went totally depressed and MEAN. Refused IC. I just wanted him to get back to himself - which wasn't always nice or happy but normal. Now from reading SI I see that I can't want this for him and I can't make him want it and I don't know how much more I can take of witnessing EVERY DAY the mess and misery. Cuz mostly I'm a very happy, life goes on, seize the day, kind of person. Life is too short. Instead I spent the last year "catching" his depression to where I was very nearly non-functional and started not sleeping, having anxiety, couldn't force myself out of bed anymore and really just wanted to grab my kid and disappear and start a whole new life. When I got there I got scared and got medicine and IC.

Wait a minute; you are definitely not describing the 180. You don't sit and listen politely about anything. You politely excuse yourself (because this is what you would do with a stranger) and go about your business. You don't go to fireworks together; you may go at the same time, but you are not 'together'.

When he reacts angrily to the 180, you simply say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." The end. Engaging with him in any way is NOT the 180.

Now, you need to refer to Heavy Sigh's questions, because you have to know if you are detaching in order to move on (S/D). If not and you want to R, the 180 has no place in R.

This is a very good primer if you want to pursue the 180:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/divorce/no_contact.asp

Wow that was a book. Sorry.

Letter to WH? What do you think?

I am sorry about yesterday. I don't think I have let you see how deeply hurt I have been for the past 2 years.

In counseling I am trying to overcome the rejection and having to watch you pine over S____ for a year. I think you still are so it is an ongoing process.

I feel like you needed a two year vacation from me emotionally, from your role as husband and father, so I fear it may take me two years to get over being emotionally abandoned.

I realize we are in a sort of limbo. You may think I should decide to "move on" as you put it or divorce. But I feel like you haven't done anything to show me that we can move on and I don't want to consider divorce lightly.

I don't know if you even understand that it will take some talking and different behaviors to show me that there might be a hope. I haven't even dared to mention such to you because I didn't want you to see me hope. I just wanted you to see me picking myself up and getting on with being the best me I can be.

I have repeatedly brought up counseling to you and started my own when you seemed unwilling. I told you, before you admitted about S____, that I wanted to talk about us because I felt we were broken and needed some help fixing things. I still feel that way, it hasn't changed because you derailed me with the S____ drama. If anything it just made me doubt that you would want to try or see "us" as something worth working on.

I feel stuck. I feel like if I make my decision on my own and just for me then I am being selfish and going against everything I believe in. You once said you took everything from me that YOU hold dear. I don't want to wind up like you. I want us both to be happy and healthy (mentally and emotionally) whether that be together or apart.

I'm just now, with help from my counselor, trying to get myself there. I don't know how to get you or "us" there.

As I see it, you have put all the work and decisions on me. I reject that. If you are subconsciously or manipulatively trying to put me in the bad guy spot, I reject that.

As I see it, you can do 1 of 3 things, any of which I promise not to judge you for, I only wish the best for you as D's dad:

1) Give up and I'll leave. You just say so. I'll work out how to make sure we both have stable homes for D. Or we can do that together if you rather.

2) Tell me you want this, us, to work, and open yourself up to some hurt, some work, and possibly a long time of ups and downs with me.

3) Choose nothing, sit in limbo as we have BUT without me to be your friend, without me to be your bud, without me to converse with, without me to do things with, without me physically because if we are going to be in limbo I am going to spend the time working hard on me in IC, in school, physically for my health and things like that. I truly hope that if 3) is your choice that you do the same.

I feel like when you chose to take my thoughts, feelings, and choices out of the equation in making your decisions, we were no longer a team and we could not make decisions like this together any more which is very hard for me to adjust to.

Please don't read anything into anything in this letter. I stated exactly what I mean. If you aren't clear on what I mean, before you run away with things in your head, give me the courtesy of asking/ clarifying things.

I have tried on a few other occassions to explain this to you, these thoughts, and you react differently each time. Sometimes you are mad. Sometimes you are sad. Sometimes you just want to blind side me with snuggles and sex.

This time I want you to read and reread what I have written. I want you to take the time to truly digest it and understand it. I want you to ask questions if you need to.

I don't want any action from you until you are sure of your choice just as I am asking you to be patient while I try and be sure of my choices. But I also feel stuck like I can't make good, informed choices until you know what you want.

I'm sorry if that seems unfair. But a lot has been unfair between us, both ways, over the years. This is just where I am.

Wait a minute; you are definitely not describing the 180. You don't sit and listen politely about anything. You politely excuse yourself (because this is what you would do with a stranger) and go about your business.

That is what I usually do but I sat to listen since he was discussing my family.

You don't go to fireworks together; you may go at the same time, but you are not 'together'.

That is what it was. My son asked us to go. I went, WH went. We weren't together. We stayed separate even at the fireworks while DS was with friends.

When he reacts angrily to the 180, you simply say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." The end. Engaging with him in any way is NOT the 180.

That is where I think I made the mistake. I talked too much. That is why I posted here.

Now, you need to refer to Heavy Sigh's questions, because you have to know if you are detaching in order to move on (S/D). If not and you want to R, the 180 has no place in R.

See the mess I am referencing above post.

It's been a year or two of this limbo, with him periodically trying to chase down his OW and completely disrespecting you, your marriage, and everything you two have built.

Why would you apologize for ANYTHING at this point?

Because I feel regret for how I have handled things. Just because he is stupid doesn't mean I don't feel bad when I am stupid too.

One of my beefs with him is that he can't apologize when he's done something wrong. He tries to just "charm" it away. I believe an apology lets the other person know that you've acknowledge what you did wrong and care about their feelings about the act/non-act and don't want to repeat it.

Just as I do in every other aspect of my life - I act as I would want others to act. I don't let their bad behavior change who I am.

We must have cross-posted.

You make a lot of concessions and excuses for him. Is that really how you want to live your life? I went through a similar situation with the X--life-threatening injury, years of recovery/setbacks. I picked up the slack for everything in our lives. I made all the decisions because he wouldn't or couldn't. All it got me was a betrayal at the point where we should have been planning our retirement. Now I'll work for the rest of my life. Can you see yourself heading in that direction?

I know how hard this is; I get that you didn't make the decision to marry lightly. But he unilaterally made the decision to blow up the M. You are left picking up the pieces. At this point, you need to stop being his caretaker and start making your own plans for life; he can come along or get off. Life with an unrepentant, unremorseful spouse is the same as living with an actively cheating spouse.

That is EXACTLY where I am Sad.

But I feel stuck like without making him fully aware of my feelings and intentions that I'm not being fair.

Do I acknowledge that he wasn't fair to me? yes. Could I go on deciding for myself and being unfair to him? yes. But I would judge myself for it later. I am trying to get through this as wholly myself as I can with my values and integrity intact. I don't care if his SUCK, mine won't.

I need to rewrite the letter to be less apologetic and more "this is where I am"? I don't even know I would hand it to him, just read it to him and see. Handing him anything makes me leary.

And fwiw - I have spent the last year taking care of myself and making my own plans. I'm moving on with or without him. But I don't want him to "just hang on". I want him to declare he is all in or HE jumps off, not that I pushed him off (but I may if I have to and I'm actually OK with that, the bitch I am).

You have to get past the self-name calling; you are not a 'bitch' when you stand up for yourself. He's an adult, a cognizant adult. If he can't ken that he put this train wreck in motion, that's on him, not you.

Look at my situation; the X wanted a wife AND a girlfriend and didn't see anything wrong with this. His statement at the time of our D was, "If only you had shut up about it and just waited for me to get over her." How many shades of fucked up is that? I walked away from the M knowing that he did not understand my actions, and I'm OK with that.

If I make every effort to make this very clear for him (which I have not I don't think so far) then I will be ok with that too. Its taken a bit for me to get there though.

Everyone thinks I'm a bitch, its even in my job description at work. I'm just trying to own it.

Honestly - I can't even at work anymore. just had a HORRIBLE blow up and I think I'm about done here.

We'll see how understanding WH is when I'm jobless and he's hungry.