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I feel that drug abusers, alcoholics, lazy jobless leeches and many other people can be just as bad as the type of person who cheats

I would agree that a BS could be many kinds of messed up. A BS could be abusive or NPD or a criminal. But, a BS who is here on SI doing their best to understand their spouse and their marriage, trying to figure out what to do next, and helping other BS's along the way . . . that person is very unlikely to be more messed up than their spouse's AP.

WH's AP is a damaged soul, and not in a lovely damsel in distress way. Her fear of abandonment causes her to threaten suicide to make men stay. She desperately demands sex, but then just lies there like a sack of potatoes, unable to enjoy it at all. She is incapable of a healthy relationship of any kind. It's actually really sad.

So, WH had an emotionally healthy, honest, loyal, sexy, loving woman at home, yet he had an affair with a train wreck. Maybe that's an extreme case, but I would say that the vast majority of BS's on SI are dealing with the same thing to some degree.

[This message edited by sailorgirl at 10:32 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)]

Alyssamd

Why does the gender issue matter to you? I assume because you are comparing yourself and your situation, and hoping it's not you.

It is horrible to read something that makes you feel dirty and low, when you are already feeling that way. When maybe those same self-esteem issues are part of the weakness that led to cheating.

But becoming better and beautiful on the inside (and therefore the outside) is what it's all about.

My personal theory is that most cheaters never get it. I think it's rare. Because it's just too fucking hard to face yourself. I see blameshifting and behavioral disorders every day in the workplace. Most people are who they are. Real change is rare.

So I assume my APs never "get it." I saw OM1 5 years ago (around the time of my second A). He's still fucked up, single, KISA type with a touch of NPD. Gross. OM2 was an emotionally unavailable seriel OM who was almost convicted of felony assault (guess what, "defending" himself from a BH) years ago. Both are successful professional with 8 years of post-graduate education. Both were guys that all the girls swooned over.

What-evah.

It is important to learn from the past. To fuse that little bit of darkness with the goodness.

I feel that my WW affaired down. The OM is physically ugly and had a live-in girlfriend that my WW knew about.

The OM's BG probably thinks that he affaired down, too. He was sleeping with a woman who cared so little about her family that she brought him to our home.

I think that when they A up they don't come back. That's why most seem to come back. My WW did and we are attempting R. Good luck to us after that mess.

Good luck to you, too.

I think that when they A up they don't come back.

I don't think there is such a thing as affairing up. When you have an affair you are committing an atrocious act as a broken person with another broken person. There is no up, it just varies when if ever that hits people.

I agree with this, there's no "affairing up". If, in that imaginary situation, the WS stumbled upon his/her soulmate and the heavens opened up and the angels sang, then any decent soulmate would wait until WS was divorced before carrying on. Anyone willing to participate in the lies, deception, ignoring their kids, forgetting to use protection, etc. is a very sorry soul.

Thank you for all your responses.

Mrs Panda, I don't know why the gender issue is so important to me....I think I was just interested to see if there was really a difference...and to see what other people thought. And yes I was also comparing myself as well.

In my role as the OW my AP affaired down. Like some others have said, my AP appeared to have it all-he was the attractive, well dressed business man type who had two master degrees and made good money...but underneath that was an unhappy, selfish, self conscious man who hid behind his physical illness and was a coward

BS here....i struggle with this because my husand's affair partners were trash...i mean really. the kind of women that you would not even look at twice walking down the street. one was a stripper turned popular yoga instructor, and the other was a therapist...who honestly is probably one of the ugliest women i have seen. and this is so disgusting to me...but in mc, my husband told me that cheated with women who he knew had low self esteem, who werent that pretty, and who could be easily manipulated but just paying them a little attention...someone he knew would be "okay" with him being married and still want to sleep with him. he said they stuck out like a sore thumb, and being the broken man that he was...he took advantage of them.

what a horrible thing to do on all sides.

so, yes, i think that man or woman...when you decide to sleep with someone who is married, by definition the man/woman you are sleeping with is affairing down.

I often wonder this about my WH's AP. on external characteristics she is a lot better than me (she's young single, hasn't got 4 children - why wouldn't she look better?!!) and she is a successful professional. That really killed me when I first found out.

But the more time I've had to think about it and get some perspective, I've realised there must have been something really broken and desperate to have accepted what she was offered. I don't know her so I guess I will never get to understand why/ what was wrong with her to make her disrespect herself that much. Ultimately, on some levels I feel sorry for her because I can't imagine that how it has played out for the three of us has done anything but damage her further.

So yeah, I agree mostly with what is said about always affairing down.

I have never responded to a post in Wayward Side but I do read what is written. I just wanted to thank you for all your honest answers to Alyssamd24's question. I know it must have been difficult to admit it and I think it takes tremendous courage to admit it and work on yourself. I used to pray that my stbx would have that kind of strength, insight, courage and humility. Thank you!

Interesting topic.

I affaired down in many ways.

What this thread made me think of is AP was filling voids that I wasn't getting at home. In my mind I was spending time with someone who understood me and "got" me. At the time, I thought I'd found someone "better".

It's so fucked up. My H hasn't had an affair. It's a simple as that.

As WS: My AP was def a step down. Younger, very handsome, but ... knowingly sleeping w/a MW, who was obviously TOTALLY fucked up mentally/emotionally. The whole thing was a monument of dysfunction, until I finally freed myself from it. OM immediately hooked up w/another MW, destroyed that M & M'd her less than a year after their A started. So ... obviously, OM is no prize.

I got into that A out of a desire for R and b/c I was so out of my mind. I was broken beyond repair, at that point.

As BS: I don't know XH's main OW, but from what I've heard, she's incredibly nasty. I can't help but think she has to be enormously damaged that she waited 4+ years for me to find out, leave XH & finally D him. As far as I know, they are still NOT M'd, nor engaged. So now, she's invested almost 5 years in XH. I'm wondering if she knows about O OW?

I think my WS did, but I don't know that he does.

I only saw her once and I don't think she was as pretty as me, but not that the physical part is all that important (but it did help me protect my ego a little to know that after DDay),

His brother and I kept trying to explain to him that she wasn't a stable and "good" person given her brokenness, her willingness to have the A, what she was exposing her child to. He kept saying he didn't see why we thought so poorly of her because, after all, she apologized if she played any role in our breakup (aw, how sweet!) and she said she thought he deserved to be happy. And she was easier to talk to than me because I would get all emotional and tell him either explicitly or implicitly he was a bad person in the first few days after DDay.

This really hurts and might be TMI, but he also told me their relationship was more sexually satisfying because she liked it rough (hair pulling and whatnot). He never ever told me he was into that. He tried to implement it in the one time we we together before DDay and it was miserable. I hate that that is my last memory of him in our intimate life together. It was all about him... He was sweaty and aggressive. If that's what she likes, she can have it. I'll pass.

He told me before I knew about the A that she was in the middle of a D with an abusive husband. It's almost like she taught him how to be that guy in and out if the bedroom because that's what she's attracted to. The sad part is that I didn't know that deep down he was capable of evn being that guy. So as far as I'm concerned, in this respect, they can have each other.

my husband told me that cheated with women who he knew had low self esteem, who werent that pretty, and who could be easily manipulated but just paying them a little attention...someone he knew would be "okay" with him being married and still want to sleep with him. he said they stuck out like a sore thumb, and being the broken man that he was...he took advantage of them.

what a horrible thing to do on all sides.

so, yes, i think that man or woman...when you decide to sleep with someone who is married, by definition the man/woman you are sleeping with is affairing down.

My WH said the same thing. He was not interested in a AP whom he felt was an equal or had her stuff together. He wanted to be treated like a king and call all of the shots while they changed their lives to fit his schedule.

Affairing down on both sides.

A general reminder to all BS's,

This thread is not an open invitation to vent about the OP. It's a legitimate question being asked, so please, no venting.

Thank you.

I just read an article about this interestingly.

It stated most women want to affair up and most men down. In terms of class.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2359342/Women-thinking-having-affair-dream-upper-class-man-men-choose-working-class-women-according-research-Ashley-Madison.html

SI has a great representation of both bs and ws, and I don't think I've seen a noticeable difference in gender as far as affairing down/up in the way you were asking.

...all the other attributes....education,career,personality traits, etc.

like others have said, those are surface things, and affairs aren't rooted in the surface of someone. now, I'm sure there are people (men and women alike) that seek out or are drawn to those surface things in an ap...but that's just another layer added onto the brokenness of someone who is willing to have an affair in the first place. ultimately, it has nothing to do with the ap (externally or internally), but what lies within the ws themselves.

BH here.

In my case, in every category, my W A'd down. It had nothing to do with the specific person, it could have been anybody.

It was her own issues combined with opportunity and a willingness on the OP part to take advantage of a situation that made it happen. My W has worked very hard to show me that this had nothing to with what I have or didn't have. It was ugly at times. It was her own issues that she is working very hard on fixing. That is ugly too. OP doesn't and shouldn't matter anymore. Does it really matter who they were ? It still hurts regardless of the details.

Be careful with this line of thought though. This is a sword that cuts both ways for a BS that has not healed as much as I have. There is no good answer for them.

If the AP was better in terms of looks, money, career, etc. That is a severe blow to a BS. The BS feels like second choice and that they could never measure up. Only self esteem rehabilitation has any chance of making this any better. It is a very hard road for a BS to make their peace with something like this. IC for a BS, is a must. This fact can be helped in some cases were the OP throws the WS under the bus. However self esteem repair is still a must.

Or

If the AP was lacking in those terms, the BS can surmise that our WS threw away the M for that ? Did the M mean that little to them ? The path forward is easier for me to understand. See my explanation above.

In other words ANY comparison between BS and AP leads to a whole lot of pain. This also opens the door to a comparisons of the who a BS thought the WS was versus who they have proven themselves to be. It is harder for me and my W to get past that last one. Comparisons, while inevitable, are just plain hurtful.

By owning the choices made, showing the BS consistently that you will do everything you can to help them heal (Doing this without being asked goes a long way) and rebuild trust to the point that they can "believe," that you "choose," them everyday and you deeply regret the choices that are made.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 8:49 AM, July 10th (Wednesday)]

On paper OP wad "affairing up". He is better educated, white collar, thinner/more attractive. But in reality he is kind of sleazy and takes advantage of vulnerable women.

When you have an affair you are committing an atrocious act as a broken person with another broken person

You just described my marriage. I don't think it's up or down. It's just there. Sadly, so are some marriages. I find it interesting to focus on the OP looks, intellect, socio-economic status like it's an anomaly. Some marriages on this site are affairages. That means the BS was someone's OW or OM.

I've said it's a pretty limited pool in quality when you're married and you're honest about it while trolling. Not a great selection to pick from that show up to that casting call. There is quantity, for sure. Just not quality. From what I've heard the dating pool in general isn't exactly teaming either.

It's pretty common to solve problems with people. They're like Prozac, drugs, material things all rolled up in one. They're animated feel goods to take when filling holes, running from problems, seeking "safe" havens, providing thrills. If you peek in NB you can even see some of that there from folks that have been through a few rodeos. Ignoring the red flags just a blowing. Waiting to see if it gets better.  That works so very well because somehow being with someone, even if that person is horrible for you, is worse than being alone, for some :(.

If some are honest, some OP's act like the dating phase. Always on the best behavior. Always "on". Always there. That's where the strokes come from. Trying to impress like an interview. Sound familiar? I read that on so many posts. Yeah, well, they don't know how bad he smells, how gross he is, how whiny and insecure she is, how crazy she gets. Yeah, well, "you" didn't either, apparently. So, no loss, right? Doesn't sound like they're getting a real prize, so why so sad, angry, hurt? What are you really losing?

Maybe it's about rejection a lot more than it is anything else, for many. Maybe that's why this shit is somehow different than any other betrayal that also sadly happens in so very many marriages daily. Because its outsourcing which hits so very very close to home in vulnerable spots we don't even want to think about.

I may have been on here just a wee bit too long because I find myself reading posts and seeing so many tsunami warning buoys pinging I wonder when "we'll" find an old member becoming a new poster in this forum...or never owning it.

BH here -

From my point of view I don't think it matters. I know who I am and I know what I want. I challenge my W do know the same things and have the courage to share them with me.

IMO you seek the wrong questions to your puzzle. When we look at the differences in others we don't focus on the person that matters - ourselves. How did you allow yourself to have the A? The OP's qualities are part of attraction or opportunity but not of substance. I am attracted to all sort of people for various reasons, however I don't seek relationships with them that are inappropriate because I have committed to my W.

I was thinking about this the other day. My W is not unique in the world, but you know what is, the fact that I chose her. And that does matter - a lot.

take care...

take care...