SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Gosh still living.

I don't know how to make it safe. After dday, there were two things that my WH lied about. I found proof and he had to admit. At first, one was right there and he was still denying. After those initial lies, WH has never strayed from his first story.

Hard for me to believe that only thing he is keeping from me happen to be the two things I found.

I think some WS want to get it off their chests. I think others will take it to their grave.

Bottom line for me, I don't believe him and I don't trust him. No where to really go from there.

broken,

Here's some more food for thought. BTW, I think I'm clear on the choices I think you should make, but you've got my support whatever choice you do make. (I figure you'll eventually make the 'right' choice, in your own good time.... )

How did you screw this up? Your gut says he's still lying - are you supposed to step on/stuff/ignore your gut feelings? Is your screw-up that you're listening to your gut? (JMO, but I applaud you for listening to your gut, and I don't think you screwed up in the least.)

When I wrote last time, I was thinking that an adult needs to set up his own feeling of safety for truth-telling. You may leave if he tells the truth - but that's a consequence of what he's done, not of coming clean.

Now I'm thinking, 'well, yeah, but a cheater is acting like a child, so maybe you ought to make allowances....' Nope. That sucks. He won't come clean unless he chooses to - it's all up to him.

What are you going to do if he never comes clean? We've already established that you may be able to rugsweep, but you can't R, unless you believe him. Will you choose to rugsweep or leave? My point is that it's OK - actually, IMO it's essential - for your H to know a LOT is riding on how he behaves.

Unless you take rugsweeping off your table, it's going to be very difficult for him to change. If he senses weak resolve, he's likely to exploit it - and you.

WRT the polygraph, I urge you to take control of it - you engage the operator, you work with him/her to craft the questions, you get the results directly, you make sure the operator doesn't have any private conversations with your H. If your H makes the arrangements, your H is the customer, and you need to be the customer yourself.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:42 AM, August 10th (Saturday)]

I don't know how to make it safe. After dday, there were two things that my WH lied about. I found proof and he had to admit. At first, one was right there and he was still denying. After those initial lies, WH has never strayed from his first story.

Hard for me to believe that only thing he is keeping from me happen to be the two things I found.

I think some WS want to get it off their chests. I think others will take it to their grave.

I could have written that just about word for word. I was SURE, 200% SURE, not a doubt in my mind I was absolutely married to a 'Take it to Your Grave' spouse.

Until THIS happened:

Unless you take rugsweeping off your table, it's going to be very difficult for him to change. If he senses weak resolve, he's likely to exploit it - and you.

Once I was finally done, and I mean DONE rugsweeping, and let him know it, he never actually considered telling me the truth, it was never an option for him...and seriously, why would he? I'd let him get away with it for years. Once I meant it (and trust me they know when we mean it) I gave him the choice, either fess up or I'm out. He didn't purge on the spot, but I was relentless. He was so good at waiting me out and every other time it worked, within a few days or maybe a week tops, I'd go back to rugsweeping right along with him. This time was different, and after a few weeks, he knew the game was up. I just wish I'd done this YEARS ago, would have saved us both a tremendous amount of pain...there would also be a lot more details left in his brain!

So it's sounds like he's willing to take the poly, that could be a good sign, or...

Any chance he doesn't think you'll follow through? It has been my experience (and it sounds like maybe yours too based on your quote), that WS's that will deny evidence staring them in the face, will deny, deny, deny ANYTHING and EVERYTHING right up to the very last second. I'm pretty sure in this situation, my FWH would have a) denied until he drove into the parking lot to take the test -or- b) taken the test, failed, and found a ton of reasons why it was all bs, how poly's are crap and tell me the test didn't prove a thing.

I hope that's wrong. I hope he takes that thing and PASSES!!!!

(((((brokensmile22)))))

[This message edited by WoundedOpus at 2:08 PM, August 10th (Saturday)]

@Sisoon

Thank you for another thought provoking post.

You are right. I know. If I let him rugsweep, he will. The problem is he could be rugsweeping or he many not be.

At his point, I am really, really feeling that the only person I can trust is me. And perhaps trusting my gut is the way to go. Much to think about this weekend.

Opus,

I pulled this from your bio

He has made great strides to be a better father, and better husband. I am still here after 5 years, but the more time that goes by, the worse I feel. Our happy life now is a lie, it's only as good as I can pretend to be FINE. We cycle through episodes of almost manic good times, amazing sex and young playfulness. Then out of the blue I wake up one day just so exhausted enacting this charade and I just can't take it.

And gosh, could I have written this! It's only as good as I pretend to be fine!

I need to update my bio... He confessed to the PA on Monday. Finding SI changed my life, in many ways. One of them was helping me feel like I wasn't crazy for feeling that everything just wasn't quite right. That I wasn't crazy for thinking a TT'er that only admits what you have proof of is still (most likely) hiding something. I got the courage to do what hadn't been able to do before...and he confessed to everything I'd always known! Today, just 5 DAYS later (after five YEARS), he says he's glad I found my way here, because finally we can start to heal. So my official start date of R is 8/5/2013, finally.

Much luck to you!!!

Hard for me to believe that only thing he is keeping from me happen to be the two things I found.

"Not Just Friends" says something to the effect of "WS: if you're only confessing to things your spouse already has ironclad proof of, prepare to go to divorce court."

Has he given you ANY details of things you didn't already know? What personal things about YOU did he tell her, what personal things about HER life he is holding secret, etc. Even EAs have details that must be shared in order to rebuild trust and intimacy.

And yes, book that polygraph.

After dday, there were two things that my WH lied about. I found proof and he had to admit. At first, one was right there and he was still denying. After those initial lies, WH has never strayed from his first story.

This is exactly were I was at. I caught her, caught her, and caught her again with lies, but the weird thing was that she seemed remorseful. She lied straight to my face on her mother's grave and then I pulled out proof. As a result, we discussed her taking a lie detector test but we never made the call. She came clean. My gut stopped screaming when she told me everything. What she told me made sense. It's when recovery began.

Broken smile,

Our situations are so similar that it's hard to believe we aren't talking about the same man. My husband claims he hid the contact and deleted texts because he thought I'd be jealous. I've never given him ANY reason to believe I would react in a jealous way, especially about a coworker. I love how he blames me though. Have you ever given your husband any reason to think he had to hide it from you? My husband won't admit to any feelings for the OW, says they never discussed feelings or anything sexual. As far as he is concerned, the only thing he is guilty of is lying to me about her and taking her someplace 4 times. I feel like a crazy person. I keep going back to the fact that people with nothing to hide, hide nothing. Last month I told him he needed to leave until he could admit to having some sort of feelings for her. He spent a week in a hotel and we were still at a stand still. I decided to meet him in the middle and accept this answer, which was he took her to a certain place 4 times because he enjoyed spending time with her and he chose her because that's who he wanted to spend his time with. He said he knew it was wrong but did it anyway. Part of me thinks he really believes his own lies or he's really out of touch with his emotions. I would find it easier to move on if he could be 100% honest. I keep regressing because I just find it hard to believe that nothing happened.

For nearly 9 years all my WH would tell me is "we were more than just friends" At first I badgered for more info and then I think I went into some sort of denial, I rug-swept it and would only refer to it if we were having an argument about something. Finally in Aug last year it all came out (the full story is in my profile) It was WAY more hideous than I had ever dreamt possible!

If your gut is telling you there is more, my advice is to follow up on that. Don't do what I did and "let is slide", it will niggle at you and eat away at your peace. He may be telling the truth, he may be lying, the bottom line is that for your own peace of mind you need to know for sure.

Everything ItsaClimb said, it ate and ate away at me. Every time I cycled into my bad place was worse and longer than the last, until I just could't take it anymore. I could't take the more than just friends but didn't feel anything...seems pretty unlikely with no sex involved. The truth was more horrific than I could have prepared for, but finally, it is the TRUTH, and that's all I ever wanted.

I asked him yesterday after posting here, if he'd ever really considered telling me if everything over the last 2 months hadn't happened, if it just continued on like before...he said no. He could just never see a positive outcome. I asked him to look back over the last five years, how long were our 'good times'? Not a day or week or two, but could he remember 2 whole months of good times, he just shook his head, he looked sad. And it is sad (for both of us) to realize he would have settled for that life forever, have me settle for it as well, just to keep those secrets. I think he finally realizes that he can be a better man, the man he wants to be...like the last line in 'Dry Adulery'...

Embody your potential rather than just referencing that you have it.

Most important, is he can now be that man for himself. And because of that, a better man for me; and that is a man worth respecting, one worth fighting this fight for.

We have a lot of tough work ahead, I pray we make it, but at least now we have a real shot.

* HUGS * Brokensmile322 - Schedule that poly, follow all the way through to the truth, whatever the truth happens to be!

Thank you so much for the virtual hugs and support. Gosh, it means so much.

Have you ever given your husband any reason to think he had to hide it from you?

Well, here's the thing. For 17 years, I never gave him a reason, never cared where he was or what he was doing all that much. He traveled a lot and many times I wasn't even sure what city he was in.

My husband worked with the OW for a few years and it wasn't until a few years into it that I heard him talking to her on the phone. It was all business, but it was casual. He was joking with her. At that time I said to him, "I don't like how you are talking to OW. You talk to her like you talk to me." I then became more aware of her and, yes, she bothered me. So this ^^ is why he said he started to hide it.

He is a person who always sees both sides to an argument. Rarely takes sides and plays devils advocate often. It drives me nuts sometimes. What he says is that in all his training he is coached that you need to treat minorities the same (race/gender). He says that he saw himself doing things with her that he would have done with his male colleagues as well. His relationship, he says, got closer but only from the fact that business in her area was in trouble and he needed to turn it around. He said he had not been performing well at work for a few years, kind of mediocre, and they were laying people off. He said that is why he was focused on that area. It's where he saw he could grow because it had been in a slump. It was the time that made their relationship more casual. He says that because I was worried about her, that is why he hid it and he didn't think anything was wrong with the things he did because he saw it as business as usual.

NOW, after MC he admits that those things were on a slippery slope. That who knows what could have happened. He says what changed it for him was an article I gave him shortly after dday. It detailed a woman's account of an EA with a coworker that turned into a PA. She listed all the steps and processes that happened. He said that moment was a light bulb for him because he was 2 or 3 down on the list of things he was doing. He said that scared him when he read it and it wasn't until then that he realized it was dangerous.

He did start to change his relationship with OW from that point. Finally, he told her that they needed to go back to business and their relationship had gotten too casual. I heard their whole conversation. She was taken aback. No one could have faked her reaction. She still tried through texts, but eventually, after several more texts and calls to her that said things like "Your text made me uncomfortable and was too personal", she finally got it.

He says there was never any talk of feelings etc.. Mostly business with some banter or kidding around. He considered her a friend as many of his male colleagues are as well.

He has maintained this story from the beginning. The two things he lied about were things he did with her. He says he did them because he would have done them with a male colleague as well. He lied because he knew how I felt about her. He says this is all there is. He says that when dday happened, he started changing his way of thinking. He says it never wavered. He does not care about her, never did and what matters to him is me and his family. He wishes that I would see all the changes he's made, the uncomfortable conversations he's had with her, the cutting off of her, better boundaries all around, that he has made and I should realize that he loves me, he' s sorry, and we can be great.

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 7:58 AM, August 11th (Sunday)]

He has maintained this story from the beginning. The two things he lied about were things he did with her. He says he did them because he would have done them with a male colleague as well. He lied because he knew how I felt about her. He says this is all there is. He says that when dday happened, he started changing his way of thinking. He says it never wavered. He does not care about her, never did and what matters to him is me and his family. He wishes that I would see all the changes he's made, the uncomfortable conversations he's had with her, the cutting off of her, better boundaries all around, that he has made and I should realize that he loves me, he' s sorry, and we can be great.

The thing is, this all sounds very reasonable. He admits that he was on a slippery slope and is sorry for it. He's made changes and wants to move on. Lesson learned. All very believably put.

But what I can't understand is this. If he is telling the truth, and this *is* all there is - there wasn't (in his opinion) even an EA - he was just on a 'slippery slope' then *why* isn't he backing this all up by him being the one literally begging you to book the poly?

If his conscience is that clear then there should be no doubt in his mind that he could 'fail' a poly. So what's he got to lose by pushing the issue? Why isn't he?

He knows you doubt him and he knows that you want to move on just as much as he does.

So what's stopping him being PRO active here and DEMANDING that you book a poly to clear it all up? If I were him that would be the obvious answer to me.

But he's not doing that. Why? When it's just so easy to do?

Brokensmile, if I were you I'd book that poly I wouldn't be able to rest until I did.

[This message edited by sinsof thefather at 12:17 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]

To be clear, he has pushed it. Contacted the guy again, found out how much, where, and what the procedure is, etc...

So what's he got to lose by not pushing the issue?

He has but he says... his dignity. That he would be strung up like a common criminal, people who commit crimes.

An almost anger over it. That and the $ it would cost.

Early on, I contacted one and found out how much etc.. Told my WH and he said he would do it, was still angry, but also said that he would not discuss this anymore then when it shows he has been telling the truth.

My problem is that the polygraph could only prove if he slept with her or not. He still had an EA in my opinion and therefore, I need to talk about this topic as much as I need.

He says that I do not want him to get the poly because then I would have nothing to fight with him about.

And yes, I realize that this could be what is said when someone is guilty. I realize that. He picked up the phone to call the guy yesterday. What stopped me? I don't know if I trust them. I think I would question if he beat it even if it said he isn't lying.

So when I realize this ^^fact. I think maybe he is right. Maybe I just want to fight?

I don' t know I am so conflicted and need my IC appt so much tomorrow. Feeling helpless and hopeless at the moment.

My husband tried to convince me he saw her as one of the guys. I said well she's clearly not a guy so stop. Here's the thing though, he made a choice to hide it and to me if feels like he hid it for his own selfish reasons. No matter if I gave him a reason or not. At that time, he felt it was worth lying to me in order to maintain their "friendship". My husband's business was going through a very difficult time too. She is his GM. Where kind of places did he take her? Did you have any idea that they were spending time together? My husband will barely speak to her at work now. It's very awkward.

Let's back up a step - put aside your gut feeling, just for a moment.

Is your H Transparent? NC? in IC? Except for this one issue, is he honest? Is this the main issue between you and R?

I think you might treat this as a communication issue. Have you considered MC or some joint sessions with your IC to discuss this with an objective (or quasi-objective) observer to help translate between you?

Is your H Transparent? NC? in IC? Except for this one issue, is he honest? Is this the main issue between you and R?

Hmmm....Sisoon. You always make me think.

Yes, he is transparent, he is honest, he is NC to the degree that he has to be for work (he has recently taken a new job so he no longer works with her directly but he very occasionally needs to answer a question). I have access to his computer, his email, his phone. The truth is, I really had access to all of this stuff before dday too. I just never looked. He never locked up any of it the way other people describe.

Now, he is in contact more, shares what he is doing, has made new boundaries at work (with her and with others), has changed (he says) how he does business with people i.e....he says he thinks about how and what I will think now and also how it will be perceived.

TBH, I am struggling more with his job now so we do discuss, sometimes argue, over what he does, but mostly because it is MY issue. I realize this. The arguments about these types of things come from my insecurity and fear over losing him. And really, they are things that are just business as usual. ^^This I think is normal and just needs to be worked through and renegotiated.

So yes, I would say this is the ONE thing that is blocking us in our quest to R.

We did try MC early on. The MC was horrible. He didn't really know what to do with us because we do communicate and we do have a pretty good relationship otherwise. We like each other.

Then I went to IC and WH has sat in on a session or two. She tried to get him to see what this has caused me. He did/does see it but he says he doesn't understand it. Even though he doesn't understand my reaction, (WH says that it was just not that deep of a relationship), he has made changes. Though, he does acknowledge that he shouldn't have done it, that it took time away from us etc.. He just doesn't understand the depth of my reaction at this point.

IC says that if I want to R, I need to choose to trust what he says at this point. She has also suggested MC for us and WH will go. Both of us just don't want a repeat of our first experience.

WH says that he has done all he can at this point. The last thing he could do would be this poly but that it is demoralizing, degrading etc... I worry that he will resent me after. He will do it, but then he says that he has done everything he can. It is up to me then. He can't do anymore, he will continue to do what he is doing, he will go to MC, but at some point I have to do something. He has recently said that he can no longer carry the burden of my happiness around with him, it is too heavy.

Maybe it is just me.

So I guess I would ask you,

What do you mean by a communication issue?

We do communicate. My husband has said I just do not like the answer. My IC has said that it sounds like I will only accept one answer.

I'll take a 2x4 if I need one. I think it is just me at this point.

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 7:31 AM, August 12th (Monday)]

The last thing he could do would be this poly but that it is demoralizing, degrading etc...

this, to me, seems like a red flag. I'm a former WW. I would welcome the chance to make my BS feel safer by taking one. It would not be demoralizing. I demoralized and degraded myself. Actions, meet consequences...

Yes, but from his statement he did not have a PA. He doesn't think he demoralized or degraded himself because he did not have a PA. He thinks he was on a slippery slope and he changed.

And, if he is being truthful, I CAN see that this would be demoralizing and degrading.

And no, if he did do what he said he did and it wasn't a PA, I don't think that he demoralized and degraded himself. I would think he made a mistake.

The problem is that I would never know if I was actually asking him to demoralize or degrade himself until after. Who wants that between us?

He says he WILL do it.

He again, this weekend started to make the call, phone ringing. I stopped him. And I stopped him because

a) From the very beginning, I have felt that if he does pass and it does shows he is truthful, I think he will be resentful that he had to do it.

b) I am not sure of the accuracy. I do think I would still question the validity. IOW, I would think he passed it because he 'beat it' or he flunked it because it wasn't accurate.

I think I need to come to terms with it or not. I do not think the poly would solve anything for me.

To me, it shows his lack of wanting to make you safe. So he admits to making a mistake, a mistake that would naturally lead any spouse to worry. If it were me, I would NOT find proving that I was faithful under these circumstances degrading. If I had done nothing of this nature wrong, yes, I can see that I would be upset, but he did do something wrong, admits it, and I would think could understand why you're concerned...to me it's a no brainer...

I love my husband. I chose to cross a line and make a mistake with someone of the opposite sex that has left him scared, hurt, and worried as hell. He naturally has a problem just 'getting over it', as would I. Since it's obviously affecting my marriage, and I want to protect and preserve my marriage, I choose to do whatever it takes to do that. And if I find he's wishy washy about me doing it and has stopped me before (and things weren't getting better), I pick up the phone when he's not around, make the appointment and go take the test. When it's all done and I pass with flying colors, I do not then wave it in his face, I do not feel vindicated, I do not make him feel like shit for degrading me. I just feel relieved that my stupid line cross didn't cost me my husband and happy that I had a way to proactively help my husband feel safe with me, and ecstatic that my marriage has a damn good shot at being great.

I know not everyone would feel that way, but if I was in your shoes, that's exactly how I'd want my husband to respond.

Only you can decide what your motives are and what you need to trust and feel safe, and move forward in your marriage.

[This message edited by WoundedOpus at 9:13 AM, August 12th (Monday)]

Broken...it is a double edged sword no doubt. I would have to question if you are hesitant to poly more because of fear...fear of the possible truth and where that will leave you as a couple. I think all WS lie..mine did. I honestly think the lying hurt more..when you plead for the truth and all you get is TT. Have him take the poly..contrary to IC I think that is the only way you will be able to move on..with or without him. From experience..go into poly prepared for the worst possible outcome. I was completely blind-sighted because after some TT I "believed" I knew everything and was just there to verify. I don't think there is any chance of true R without the belief that you know everything. My WH was not happy with poly then and now..feels it was degrading etc. but at the same time he says he would probably have never told me the truth..and honestly I really just didn't/don't care how he felt about it because this is a consequence of his actions, selfishness, and complete lack of consideration for me. At this point..words mean nothing..it is all about actions. ((((brokensmile322)))