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I got a weird email from him about all the things he thought he screwed up about the date. He was basing it off an episode of How I Met Your Mother. I thought it was weird, and stopped responding to him. He wrote another email apologizing and explaining that it was a joke.

hadn't met anyone who checked off all my boxes

It's really interesting a lot of your wbf's actions seems delusional to say the least and based off movies and tv shows. the big overt gestures and sneaky behaviour.

It's like he's not too sure about what a relationship is supposed to be.

As silly and weird as it sounds the fact that it was so 'perfect' also seems a bit off. sure we all try and be our best but there's always going to be those stupid fights when you move in together etc etc.

So moving on.

What is the difference between who you are now to who you were then. I don't mean to go "because of him blah blah" try and take a stock list

e.g before I was confident in _____

now I don't feel confident, in that, infact I feel like this ______

try and break it down

I think you're going really well

It is frustrating how you repeatedly try to interpret your WBF's behavior in the most benign light, and say that's because you're "nice". You also take his claims of being hurt or in pain way, way too seriously. He know it makes you feel guilty (for not being "nice") and plays on that. We hear a LOT about his pain and his perspective, but very very little about yours. I'm still waiting for you to get MAD that your BF fucked other women. He had SEX with them. And LIED to you about it, as well as a whole host of other things. This guy is a crazed lunatic stalker manipulative loser. Why are you not ANGRY with him for lying to you? Why do you keep giving him the benefit of the doubt? Emotionally healthy is New York, and this guy is Beijing.

I really want you to think about why you want to salvage this relationship so much. What is your history of relationships, and your FOO? Were you abused? Did your father not treat your mother respectfully? Was there an ethic that women have to make do and keep their men happy?

I think OW was angry because he was dating me, and so she did NC. When he broke it, she was not nearly as nice as I am

My counselor told me last week that I am the most stubborn person that she has ever met for not wanting to give up on a relationship. She also said that I am able to tolerate more emotional pain than anyone she's treated.

So, being "nice" to men who treat you badly leaves you in unbearable emotional pain?

What is your own personal dealbreaker, LG10? Until you make peace with your line in the sand, he's going to keep pushing your boundaries while you retreat, stubbornly, and swallow the pain.

It's called self-respect. If you don't respect yourself, LonelyGirl10, no man is going to respect you.

I disagree that you were in a good place when you met him. You admit that even now you feel guilt and shame over cheating on your ex, and when you met your current WBF, that would have been closer to when that cheating happened and you would have had fresher feelings of guilt and shame, yes? You have also alluded to the fact that maybe you take so much garbage because you feel you deserve it. Doesn't sound like a good place to me. It sounds like someone who is wearing a mask and is terrified to take it off and rebuild herself the way she really wants to be, rather than just putting on the face that she thinks everyone wants to see.

Listen, you are BOTH breaking NC right now. You by posting all this on the open forum and not blocking him from viewing your posts, and him from reading all your posts and continuously emailing and texting you. Seriously dude, why are you being such an idiot?! She has made it clear multiple times that she NEEDS NC for 30 days, and you've read that repeatedly on this thread as well, and you keep contacting her. How thick are you? Leave her alone for 30 days.

LG, you have to block him from reading your threads, and you have to stop passively communicating with him through SI as well. You are giving a drug addict his fix. You ARE replying to him even while giving the appearance that you're not. The only person you are fooling is yourself. You deserve better. You deserve to be honest to yourself. You deserve to have someone who will respect your boundaries. I guess it's kind of silly to expect a guy who has been arrested for stalking the OW, cheated on you several times, lied to you about things such as seeing a counselor and taking prescribed medication, wrote you a "weird" email after your first date and then played it off as a joke, throws tantrums like a 2 year old, and can't control himself for a mere week much less a month. I guess it's silly to expect that guy to respect boundaries. But if he can't, then this (your 2 years of history with him) is what you'll have to look forward to for the rest of your life.

I don't really care what his IC says about his personality disorder or lack thereof, I would bet you a million dollars that he hasn't told his IC any of the stuff that I mentioned in the prior paragraph. I bet he won't tell the IC any of the stuff that has occurred this week, maybe with the exception of his first and second emails where he was being so nice. Surely he'll "forget" to tell IC about his explosive reaction to being called out as a manipulator in a public forum. Surely he hasn't told his IC that he created fake profiles to give you advice on infidelity on that last website you were on. Surely he hasn't told his IC anything that would possibly paint him in a negative light, because that's not how you manipulate people into doing and saying what you want. And who knows if this IC is even real or not... he could have literally looked up a phone number and name in the phone book and gave you that info and never met the guy..... he's done that before, made up an IC.

What is your own personal dealbreaker, LG10? Until you make peace with your line in the sand, he's going to keep pushing your boundaries while you retreat, stubbornly, and swallow the pain.

I thought that I had drawn a line in the sand. My dealbreaker was more lies that were not confessed voluntarily. I had proof of more lies, and I encouraged him to tell me voluntarily for three nights if there was anything else. He didn't. So the fourth day is when I told him I had proof of something, and all the new lies came out. That's when I said 30 days NC.

I'm still waiting for you to get MAD that your BF fucked other women. He had SEX with them. And LIED to you about it, as well as a whole host of other things.

I get mad on TT days, for a few hours. And then it passes. I've never been the type of person that really gets angry. My mood is moderate most of the time. When I really get angry, I usually go over the top. I guess looking back, all of my relationships have ended when I get angry. When I get angry, I just stop putting up with anything. And then the guy literally can't do anything right, and it causes the guy to walk away.

What is your history of relationships, and your FOO? Were you abused? Did your father not treat your mother respectfully? Was there an ethic that women have to make do and keep their men happy?

No abuse. My mom did not treat my dad respectfully. She is a very controlling woman. I grew up wanting to be the opposite of her. There was one time in high school that I upset a friend, and she told me that I was acting like my mom. I usually go very far to make sure that I'm not being controlling. That has played out in most of my relationships. With my ex, he would tell me I was being controlling when I didn't want him spending time with his ex or going to strip clubs, and that caused me to just tolerate those things because I didn't want to be seen as controlling. My mom also had a lot of double standards, so I usually go to the extreme to avoid that too.

I disagree that you were in a good place when you met him. You admit that even now you feel guilt and shame over cheating on your ex, and when you met your current WBF, that would have been closer to when that cheating happened and you would have had fresher feelings of guilt and shame, yes? You have also alluded to the fact that maybe you take so much garbage because you feel you deserve it. Doesn't sound like a good place to me. It sounds like someone who is wearing a mask and is terrified to take it off and rebuild herself the way she really wants to be, rather than just putting on the face that she thinks everyone wants to see.

True. Looking back, I guess I see myself as so much happier and confident than I am now. But, I guess a more realistic view is that I was lonely when I was dating. Both of my best friends had recently gotten married, and I was worried that I was never going to meet someone I could marry. I felt ashamed of my past, and I thought that if I could meet someone new, I could start over. I could be a better person in the next relationship. I didn't tell him at first that I had cheated in the past, so I guess I was wearing a mask too. It wasn't just him that hid himself.

e.g before I was confident in _____

now I don't feel confident, in that, infact I feel like this ______

The main thing I guess is that before I felt confident that men wanted me. Now I feel like I'm not good enough.

Before I felt confident in my looks. Now I feel unattractive.

Before I felt confident in my career. Now I feel like my career is a liability for dating since he felt insecure about my job.

I'll continue to think about those. That's a harder question.

LG, you have to block him from reading your threads, and you have to stop passively communicating with him through SI as well.

I didn't realize there was a way to block someone.

Gently, you were not happy a year ago. You just attached to someone to avoid your own pain and, I guess, fear that no one will ever care for you.

Stop telling yourself you were happy at the beginning of your 'relationship'. You weren't.

You're a lawyer, and yet you attached to this guy on the basis of a few long e-mails. This guy already has lied, lied, lied to you. You say that's your deal breaker - and the consequence is simply 30 days of NC.

These things are very sad. Shed some tears for yourself, tell yourself you will treat yourself better - and then do that.

Life is a matter of heart head, and guts, but sometime a person has to give control to his/her head. Now is the time for you.

Your emotional reactions and desires are just plain wrong. Follow your head until you train your emotions to serve you.

Make no mistake - you are lovable, loving, and capable. You don't recognize that, but these are facts. Truly, there'll be plenty of healthy people who'll love you for yourself - but finding them requires you to love and respect yourself first.

In the two years you've been with him, how much time have you spent with his family? How is his relationship with them?

before I felt confident that men wanted me. Now I feel like I'm not good enough.

Before I felt confident in my looks. Now I feel unattractive.

Before I felt confident in my career. Now I feel like my career is a liability for dating since he felt insecure about my job

Sooo, he's completely broken you, not followed any of your "lines in the sand" or boundaries, and you still want him because.......

You're giving him credit for a week of NC that isn't earned. He's been stalking you all along.

LG - pretend you are your client.

Your client is dealing with a number of broken agreements from another party. And that party is trying to persuade her to continue doing business with him, extending him more credit.

He's complaining that he defaulted because she wasn't really good at what she did, but then he turns around and tells her he has to have more... and he'll be good this time.

Would you recognize your client is being used in every sense of the word here? Would you sue to help your client recover damages? Would you help her refuse to have any further dealings with this fraud?

You might be kicking yourself now because you've invested 2 years into this. Just think. You could be in this place two years from now and be four years into the same failing relationship.

What would that do for your personal and professional confidence?

Even if he weren't a stalker.

The main thing I guess is that before I felt confident that men wanted me. Now I feel like I'm not good enough.

B

efore I felt confident in my looks. Now I feel unattractive.

Before I felt confident in my career. Now I feel like my career is a liability for dating since he felt insecure about my job.

I'll continue to think about those. That's a harder question

This is really good, keep posting these. I know everyone here is coming from a very compassionate place. But I'm going to view it how I did when sometimes people banged me over the head with 2x4s. Every time we do that a bit too harshly you may be thinking of the times when there were exceptions.

So just keep doing this list. Even if there are positive things write those down too. You're just starting to reflect on the relationship.

I don't care if you list good things just keep posting them up. It's easy for us to say what if this was your client? We can do that because we are not you. So I'm trying to promote you undertaking a more objective standpoint. It's like doing your finances... I think..?

In the two years you've been with him, how much time have you spent with his family? How is his relationship with them?

I've met his dad maybe three times, and his mom twice. I wanted to spend more time with them, but it just never happened. Not sure why. They live about 30 minutes from me.

I understand rationally what everyone is saying. If it was one of my friends, I'd be saying the exact same things to her. My head knows everything that you're saying, but my heart just loves him.

I went out with some friends today, and just thought of him the whole time. We have fun together. Even with the A stuff, I'm happy when I'm spending time with him. I rationally know that's not enough, and that's why I'm insisting on the NC so that he will have some time to work on himself. But emotionally, I just really want to be with him. I'm forcing my head to control right now. I've asked my IC what it says about me that I want to be with someone who did all this horrible stuff. She of course won't answer the question. I think most of my friends, and probably people on SI, see me as not respecting myself. I'm questioning whether or not I respect myself. I just have this feeling of being "home" when I'm with him, and I don't get that feeling anywhere else. That probably sounds dumb, but it's why I've stayed after everything that happened I guess.

So just keep doing this list. Even if there are positive things write those down too. You're just starting to reflect on the relationship.

Before I knew the qualities that I wanted in a marriage partner. Now I feel confused about what I want.

Before I thought I was a good judge of character and could tell when someone lying. Now I don't trust my judgment.

Before I was never able to walk away from a relationship or initiate NC. Now I'm enforcing NC, and that makes me feel like a stronger person.

Before I was able to move on very quickly after a relationship ended. Now I can't imagine dating anyone else because I still have very strong feelings for him.

Before I was optimistic about love and my friends' new relationships. Now I'm very cynical and tell my friends to be careful.

Before I could honestly say that there wasn't anyone that I hated. Now there are a few people that I have those feelings toward. I really hope that passes with time, because it's not the way I like being.

[This message edited by Lonelygirl10 at 11:14 PM, October 12th (Saturday)]

Have the two of you ever discussed finances? Do you each support the other's career choices?

last December. We were talking about getting engaged, and then he asked for no contact in December out of the blue. He said it was because he was depressed, and he needed to be alone to work through it. It crushed me, but I respected his wishes. I never initiated contact with him. I would respond if he messaged me, but I never initiated it. He would periodically once a week ask to see me, and I would agree. Each time I'd get my hopes up, and then he'd say that he needed more time. During those 3 months, he still had us listed as "in a relationship on facebook."

Were these once a week social visits, or were they booty calls?

I remember when he broke up with me in December, and he said it was because he was depressed. Then he said it was because he wanted to move for school. I offered to move with him, and then he said that he didn't know if he wanted me. That he was 99% sure that he wanted me. And I spent the next few months trying to prove to him that I was good enough. I finally "won" and we got back together. Then two weeks later, Dday happened.

You were trying prove to him that you were good enough? Remember this gem:

He will feel insecure sometimes, and pull back to make the woman try harder so that he'll feel wanted or whatever. He has gotten a lot better after MC with this. It used to be worse before the A.

Kinda pulled that shit again by blocking you on FB and turning off GPS, right? Pull back. And you try harder ... and feel guilty "I'm the one that doesn't care about the relationship. I'm the bad guy. I'm the one giving up on him. I'm the one giving up on us."

He admits that he wasn't fully trying before 3 weeks ago when he confessed the stuff about my phone and the fake account on the other profile.

Damn! Imagine how good your relationship would be if he actually "tried."

And I recently read messages between him and his brother, where he told his brother that he slept with her and cheated on me because "she was hot." I re-read those messages several times a day, and it just hits me right in the center of my heart.

*sigh*

I had so much sex with him before he went out of the country for a trip. I wanted him to be sexually exhausted. But you know what? He still had a ONS during that trip. Nothing I do will control his actions. He either loves and respects me enough to not do it, or he doesn't.

*sigh*

Does he respect you, Lonelygirl10?

Kind of embarrassing. When we first met, we had a conversation about fantasies. I shared the thought of a threesome. In his email today, he said that he had signed up on a site for the both of us then. He said just a login name, and that he didn't do anything further with it. But that the spam emails began then. He said he told me about it back then and I got upset, but I don't remember that part.

Still no recollection of that threesome discussion?! What are the odds he lied?

Ok, 2x4 warning:

I asked about his family because his lying goes deeper than his cheating. He has lied to you about everything, repeatedly. His lying is pathological and reading some of his actions is setting off alarms in me big time. I am seriously worried for your safety.

What he has been doing is stalking and it's abusive.

Did you ever read the police report about his stalking arrest? Or did you get the facts from him. Have you looked into his background?

I know we don't know him and you feel like you've spent two years of your life with him. But in fact, it's a very simple decision you need to make. Is this how you want to spend the rest of your life? Are you ok with your married life being even worse than what your relationship is like now? Because he is not going to change. If he can, it will take *years* of therapy. This is how he treats you *before* you're married. You honestly believe it will get better? If this is your courtship then I'm pretty sure when you're married and the stress of real life sets in you'll be posting on a domestic violence board because he is a controlling, lying, stalking SOB and he can't even handle your career so he's never going to be able to handle a marriage.

Please, please, please try to step back. What if your friend said "I want to marry a man who is a pathological liar, serial cheater, who has been arrested for stalking."? What would you say? We all want to think our lives are so complicated, but actually, it can be pretty simple. Are you prepared to spend the rest of your life like this? Because he is not going to change. It ain't. gonna. happen.

Take care of yourself. Revisit this NC. It shouldn't be for 30 days, it should be for eternity. Every moment you spend on this guy wastes the opportunity for a new, healthy relationship. Focus on you - you deserve better. Hugs to you.

[This message edited by cliffside at 10:01 AM, October 13th (Sunday)]

The 2x4s are getting hard to read, even though I know it's out of compassion.

I know he has a ton of work on himself that he needs to do.

I know that I have a ton of work on myself that I need to do.

You have helped me to realize that I do need to do this 30 days of NC, and that I can't give in to him. Thank you for that.

I'm not ready to give up completely though. I still believe that he can change if he wants to.

I'm not ready to give up completely though. I still believe that he can change if he wants to.

But his actions clearly show that he *doesn't* want to....

I still believe that he can change if he wants to

Sure. He could change if he wanted to. The question is....does he want to? And if he does, what is he doing to make that change happen?

Doing, NOT *saying* he'll do, but actually doing.

I don't see where he is actually working to change himself. He's *phoning in* his IC sessions. He is spending his IC time talking about you and getting validation from the IC that what you want/need is *wrong*. That is NOT him *working* on himself.

You say that you have fun with him. Well, my stbx is tons of fun. Tons. But he is also one of the most black-hearted and soul-less individuals that I know. Read about the cycle of abuse. Focus specifically on the "honeymoon" phase. Abusive people can't be abusive ALL the time......being charismatic and fun is one of the *hooks* used to keep you around.

It is really, really difficult (and not fun at all) to take those *rose-colored* glasses off so that you can see reality......I get it.

{{{hugs}}}

I wanted to add one note:

You're a lawyer. That is AWESOME! You made it through law school and passed the bar. That's not an easy feat and many fail in attempting it. You're kick ass! Know that! Take these thirty days to focus on YOU! Do the 180 and do it for you. You're making a lot of progress, keep going.

Ask yourself why you feel at home with someone who is so abusive.

Ask yourself why you feel at home with someone who is so abusive.

I guess I don't see it as abuse.

I think he has problems with himself where he's terrified of being alone, and that causes him to sleep with other women. I've been in his shoes in the past. That's the reason why I cheated on my xBF. And then after he does it, he gets caught in a web of lies in order to prevent himself from being caught. I've been there too in the past. I told my own web of lies. The difference between us is that he got caught, and I didn't. But I see myself as being the same as him. Throughout the past two years of all this, I never cheated on him. To me, that means I was able to fix my issues and become a safe partner. So I just have faith that he can fix himself too, if he wants to. And I know that last part of him wanting to is important. I'm giving him that chance now with the 30 days NC. If this doesn't wake him up and make him want to change, then I know I'll have to walk away. But I'm just giving him one last chance to change.

I guess I don't see it as abuse.

That's a big problem, and it's yours. He stalks you on web forums. He pretends to be someone he's not to give you advice that serves him. He's got you thinking you can't go on if he leaves you. He stalks you on the street.

How is that not abuse? How is that behavior in any way acceptable?

Did you do that? Assuming the answer is 'no', you're very different from him.

I think he has problems with himself where he's terrified of being alone, and that causes him to sleep with other women.

You're a lawyer, for crying out loud! You should know that's an assumption and, I daresay, a projection of your own thoughts; as such, the statement probably has no purpose other than to mislead - and it's you who's being misled!

You have a lot to offer other people, but you're a really lousy doormat, and that's what you seem to be offering yourself as.

I do not support your victimizing yourself or letting yourself be victimized.

I fully support you in being you and in protecting yourself.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:54 PM, October 13th (Sunday)]