SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Not a Dr. Laura fan. I think she is a narrow-minded bigot. (and that is the NICE thing I have to say about her.)

I respect your value that it is OK to view porn. I do believe that value can be healthy given the right people. Some people also have the value of being “swingers.” IMO, I can respect that value too if that is for them. If you believe this value is off base.. that is your value.

My therapist says protect you. Those are values that come with risk.

And the odds are not good in today society that if you allow yourself to go down that path, people seek, desire, have this inner feeling of curiosity, and when placed in situations of high risk, a person with these values will likely act on it. It takes a man or woman with great inner strength not to act. It then become one of the reasons people cheat.

My therapist will also say that since you give permissions to behave this way, in a deep way, your spouse will give themselves permissions

Whoa, trynhard. You REALLY twisted my words. You may want to make a point, but please don't use my words to bolster it--not when you are distorting my message wholly.

I corrected your initial generalization about women being gross over-reactors to masturbation because it was mistaken and misguided. We DON'T all freak out about it.

You took that and ran, using it to assign me the "value" of being okay with porn--and further, to state that my "value" gave my husband "permission" to become who he is. (Only, really, he always was that person; he'd just lied to me.)

With all due respect, I think you lack understanding of the profound illness some experience, of which porn use is but one symptom.

My open-mindedness gave NO ONE "permission" to shut me out of a sex life, to infect me with foul diseases contracted during anonymous, porn-fueled sex with high-risk strangers, to threaten my unborn children with infection. My open-mindedness as a young wife gave NO ONE "permission" decades hence to cause me unspeakable harm (physical, emotional, financial) and to harm our children as well.

I stayed with him. I would not have, had I known the truth.

No, my "value" that it was okay to view porn had NOTHING to do with ANY choices my husband made. Because I thought I was dealing with the man he pretended to be when, in fact, he was and is a fraud--always has been and always will be.

Most men CAN occasionally use/view porn harmlessly.

How, exactly, are we supposed to know whether we have one of the ones who can't?

Your pendulum swung from one extreme to another. First porn was fine and masturbation harmless and women were just a bunch of hysterical over-reactors--who Dr. Laura appropriately chastened.

Now, it's our fault if we AREN'T overreactors, because we invite (give, permission, in fact) our husbands to betray and harm us if we tolerate it.

I guess we're all asking for it, after all.

And really---Dr. Laura IS an unrepentant OW. Her current marriage was founded in infidelity. And it was not her first affair with a married man. Please don't defend her stance on infidelity without at least acknowledging this.

Another value I know many women hate

- The value in being a stay at home mom.

Really? Many women hate this? Because the women I know respect one another's choices.

I arranged my life to SAH. I worked freelance. When I had to, I worked when my kids were at school or asleep. I was a SAHM.

Know what? My husband created an atmosphere that made it impossible to live with him. And believe me, I tried EVERYTHING to stay married--at enormous cost to my own well-being.

At 51, I was thrust back into full-time employment--at a time when my youngest was tremendously vulnerable (his father's betrayal and abandonment created a profound depression). I work mostly for medical benefits. I bring home some. I continue to work freelance on my "time off."

Dr. Laura would peg me as neglectful of my kids. Fuck that. I'm doing what I have to do---and still worry I will lose the house.

By all means, you're welcome to like Dr. Laura. Embrace her values.

Just stop twisting what others are saying in an attempt to demonstrate her acuity. She already has a huge following, and she doesn't require SI proselytizing. Twisting others' words in order to "prove" her points ...well, seems kind of misguided. (I stopped short of calling it mean-spirited, because I don't think that's your intention. But the effect is actually the same. You may not intend to, but you are causing pain.)

[This message edited by solus sto at 3:36 PM, October 21st (Monday)]

solus sto..

Sorry.. I misunderstood. Thank you for helping me seeing this clearer now. I think I understand your point now.. You were open to porn earlier– Your H still behaved badly – It has nothing to do with porn, but more of his own internal condition. Some men don’t have these internal conditions and can view porn and still be intimate with their wives. Porn is just one symptom. ..of many.. it may or may not be a factor.

I re-read her article again.

It is more about not necessary porn.. Porn happened to be the one “symptom” In this case.. A woman getting angry upset, at her man doing porn and showing her anger. This man did not get the OK from his spouse before he did it and got caught in the act. He did it in secret. The reason this woman is angry is her feelings of disrespect, It is not OK behavior. It is a perverse and ridiculous intrusion into your relationship. It is an insult, it is disloyal and it is cheating. She behaves this way to manipulate her man away from porn.

As I think about the behavior Dr. Laura is trying to give advice.. it is.. hey play along… you might enjoy it.

Be less rigid and more flexible. .. this will lead to good. Well, it might or it might not. But I think this advice tends to lean toward the reciprocity of good.

Yet the battle is with some men, even though a woman will play along.. Some men may still may take if further and further down the path to misery because of his own “internal condition.” As Solus Sto points out.

My thoughts.. This article might be the first step toward a good M but be cautioned.. More can be going on. Porn comes with risk. Not all men are healthy. If you manipulate your H, he may turn away from you verses get closer.. as she points out in the article. If you play along you might fill that need and good will come.

The manipulation, the anger, the punishment.. You are punishing his sexuality.

She writes,

if you choose to make a man feel less than a man or like he is "doing something wrong" when looking at porn - THAT is when porn will take your place. THAT is when using porn will become easier than being with you.

Your behavior pushes your man away..

As I think about this.. You can dictate your man’s sexuality in two ways..

- Manipulation; force him to only focus on you..

- Participate

The participation message may be implied.. Fill your man’s sexual needs. He then WANTS to have sex with you, not fantasy. Forcing never works, they must want. Feed him as she says. Feeding seems to me a far better way of doing things.. But it can be relentless feeding and feeding getting nothing in return.

StillGoing – I think that blog post in context..

The second type of cheater isn’t “bad,” they simply may be going outside the marriage to have their needs met.

“Bad” in that post does not mean cheating is good. It means this man is a good father, a good lover of gifts, lover of quality time, quality in many ways.. he just is not having his sexual needs met and he makes the wrong most hurtful choice to have an A and fill that one missing part.. having his sexual needs fulfilled.. Perhaps even the basic need to spread his seed he fails to battle within. It is the reason… just because it is the reason, does not mean it is an EXCUSE. This man cannot be open, lives in fear, and I do consider that man as broken.

Sisoon.. I think Dr. Laura fully understand repentance base on her writings.

http://www.drlaurablog.com/category/michael-vick/

I often read the attacks on Dr. Laura. Then, when I really look at what she says, investigate it.. These attacks seem to be not valid.. part truths. Twisted.

I know her directness can be hurtful like making a working woman feel guilty verses being a stay at home mom. What child does not want mom to be the teacher, the nurturer.. but sometime that is just not possible. I get the anger and fight at her for backing people into a corner.

That is just the way I view it. The best part is you don’t have to pay attention to her… just click off.

You can dictate your man’s sexuality in two ways..

I don't think that anyone can dictate anyone's sexuality.

Which I think was solus sto's point.

I often read the attacks on Dr. Laura. Then, when I really look at what she says, investigate it.. These attacks seem to be not valid.. part truths. Twisted.

In your opinion.

Just because other people have different opinions to you, it doesn't mean that they haven't investigated it just as thoroughly as you have, or that their opinion is 'not valid' or worse - Twisted.

[This message edited by sinsof thefather at 10:08 AM, October 22nd (Tuesday)]

“Bad” in that post does not mean cheating is good. It means this man is a good father, a good lover of gifts, lover of quality time, quality in many ways.. he just is not having his sexual needs met and he makes the wrong most hurtful choice to have an A and fill that one missing part.. having his sexual needs fulfilled.. Perhaps even the basic need to spread his seed he fails to battle within. It is the reason… just because it is the reason, does not mean it is an EXCUSE. This man cannot be open, lives in fear, and I do consider that man as broken.

"Basic need to spread his seed" is not a real thing. It's just not.

Yes, it IS an excuse when it's set up as "He needed to go get needs filled elsewhere" because that condition simply does not exist unless someone decides to cheat, period. If he has to get "needs filled elsewhere" then he should leave the marriage. All that line ever is, is an excuse, and dressing it up and pretending it isn't doesn't make it so. It just isn't a valid reason, which means it has absolutely no place in any discussion about infidelity, which relegates it to the garbage bin of justifications.

Not-A-Doctor-Of-Psychology-Or-Psychiatry Laura is also making a false dichotomy of Good and Bad people, and throws out anyone who cheats more than once as irredeemable sub human trash, and anyone who has "only cheated once" as not actually bad people but not getting what they need - which I call bullshit when a Doctor in the actual field tries to say that crap too.

She remains a hypocritical, remorseless adulterer that rakes in money by giving advice and selling standards she has absolutely no intention or ability to follow herself.

Also, clipping out everything to quote a single line is called cherry picking - you removed the context, you didn't add it.

As I think about this.. You can dictate your man’s sexuality in two ways..

- Manipulation; force him to only focus on you..

- Participate

I am confused. If a person expresses their discomfort/pain over something their partner does (i.e. porn), why and how is that manipulation? Isn't it sharing feelings and being honest and, in fact, trying to build emotional intimacy by being honest?

Some people appear to think the message is much more important than the messenger, but I think it's obvious that actions are more powerful than words.

LS's actions speak very loudly to me, far more loudly than her words, and her actions say the wrong things.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:17 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday)]

Do as I say, not as I do. It just does not work for me. Also the little I have read from her just did not sit well with me.

I am coming at you folks from and pure "Intellectual" standpoint.. so please, do not get offended because I too have my own struggles.. nor do I believe I am perfect. But I seek and want to submit.

manipulation?

8.Unwillingness To Forgive - "I know you said you were sorry, but I don't think you meant it."

By this definition.. if you say you her actions speak for themselves.. "hypocritical".. IMO, this means you have not forgiven this public person for her past sin. That is your choice.. You don’t believe she has done enough to repent.. shown enough remorse.. so you make that choice not to forgive. and the results of the feelings you have about her?

I know Dr. Laura made the most hurtful choice anyone can make. I have read her post and know she is no longer the woman she once was.. I have forgiven her. That means I accept the sin and I do not punish her for it. That is my choice as someone mentioned.

She has made blog post about some things are not forgivable. That is true. It is true because some people NEVER make restitution. I can see she paying her restitution at this very moment. Teaching good morality and ethic. Learned from her own mistakes.

Silver..manipulation

Physical Aggression, Anger, Intimidation, Threats - "If you don't do what I want you'll be sorry."

A woman can say, "If you don't stop porn.. I will.. whatever you decide to do."

As I think about her article.. She is saying rather that manipulate your H, by punishing him with anger, you play along... You somehow get him to feel and think.. and want him to only focus in on you.. you interrupt the his behavior and be attractive, so YOU attract him.

As solo points out. That does not always work. At that point, you were as attractive to the best of your ability and know this man cannot make a healthy choice. He is what my therapist calls.. An irrational person.

In the article it does not state this man is "irrational" yet. But should a man continue to behave like Solo H, Therefore, this offence you cannot forgive and that might be OK.

Another manipulation.. and this I think hard about this thread… and it is about me.

1. Over-Intellectualization - "There were 18 reasons for my behavior. Let me list them for you."

So I look hard at myself while I give reasons for my words on this thread… Last night, a strong man I know gave me a message. He said I was not manipulating when I merely point out the highest of morality. Those are just facts about life.

No human is perfect nor is Dr. Laura. But IMO, her morality today is on the upper part of the scale based on my reading and listening to her. If you can open yourself up to what she really means without emotions behind it.. You might see her in a very different way. Like I said, I could list them all and have each one of you challenge them.. It might be an interesting Exercise.

She is just one person teaching morality so lost in our society today. Good morality will protect you from misery.

Still.. You and I have had some good discussions in the past.

"Basic need to spread his seed" is not a real thing. It's just not.

I believe this is within a man. You do not. I am ok with your belief. It is what you believe.

I believe this is a reason men cheat. A basic human mental part of a man to propagate the earth.. to survive..

You need to explain to me why advertisers show almost naked women and as men we have inner feelings of physical attract.. why when are at pro football game they have cheer leaders dressed so sexy.. Why some men in the betrayed men’s thread have posted sexy women pictures.. We see a hot body and as men we have thoughts that want us to have sex. Why even when a woman with NOT so a hot body, when she behaves in attractive ways with words, her posture, her work… Why men like that so much and want to have sex with those women. All despite our making a vow. Why we feel those feeling. Too me, it is part of Mother Nature.

It only becomes an excuse when a weak man who gave his promise to a woman, God, his family and friend cannot control himself from these inner feelings uses that to justify his hurtful actions. The reason is what it is. The reason can become an excuse for the bad behaviors. Excuses have zero value because you are pretending there was no mistake and no REASON for a failure whether tiny or huge. It is not the fact we as men have these inner feelings.. it is about the mistake made by lying, breaking a vow..

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:17 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday)]

I believe this is within a man. You do not. I am ok with your belief. It is what you believe.

I believe this is a reason men cheat. A basic human mental part of a man to propagate the earth.. to survive..

Beliefs are fine, but this is a belief that trespasses on the rational world without any solid foundation. It has no place in a discussion outside of belief structures, and this particular issue is not merely about personal beliefs or values but an actual component of the physical world and by that measure subject to more than personal opinion.

You need to explain to me why advertisers show almost naked women and as men we have inner feelings of physical attract.. why when are at pro football game they have cheer leaders dressed so sexy.. Why some men in the betrayed men’s thread have posted sexy women pictures.. We see a hot body and as men we have thoughts that want us to have sex. Why even when a woman with NOT so a hot body, when she behaves in attractive ways with words, her posture, her work… Why men like that so much and want to have sex with those women. All despite our making a vow. Why we feel those feeling. Too me, it is part of Mother Nature.

So what? Biological agents and chemical interactions are parts of a whole sum, like a desire for salt and fats integrating into particular appetites. Testosterone is produced from cholesterol but it's not just over simplification to say "I want fried eggs because I am a man and have higher testosterone" but blatantly false when removed from the whole and set as a sole focal point and reason.

I think the vast majority of women models are unattractive. Yes, sex sells, so does food. Our baser desires are no more a reason for cheating than they are for obesity. These are social issues governed by social constructs. In other social constructs where the idea of monogamous couples was alien or non-existent, this entire thing would be a non-issue.

If you want a more in depth explanation of human sexuality and biological functions you'll need to look into some research on the subject form people who have actually studied the field, of which Laura S is not a member.

It only becomes an excuse when a weak man who gave his promise to a woman, God, his family and friend cannot control himself from these inner feelings uses that to justify his hurtful actions. The reason is what it is. The reason can become an excuse for the bad behaviors. Excuses have zero value because you are pretending there was no mistake and no REASON for a failure whether tiny or huge. It is not the fact we as men have these inner feelings.. it is about the mistake made by lying, breaking a vow..

It's an excuse because the reason of wanting to fuck something else can exist independently of *actually fucking it.*

It is not a reason for *actually fucking something else* until it becomes an excuse for doing so. Saying "The reason men cheat is because they like to fuck" is like trying to say "The reason someone fell to their death is because [mechanics of gravity]"; it's not a WHY, it's a HOW. If you get drunk and take a leak off the edge or some asshole pushes you over, gravitational effects are a mechanism.

eta:

As for her blog and her "sins" - she has never done anything in her life to "repent" anything. All she ever does is run away, even when she uses racial slurs.

I may not agree with Dr. Harley (spelling?)the man has conviction and is not out to take advantage of people as far as I can tell. Laura S is just contemptible in that she lacks that conviction and stands on her hypocrisy to profiteer off the pain and confusion of others.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 11:18 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday)]

It is not a reason for *actually fucking something else* until it becomes an excuse for doing so.

Wow. Well said.

I apologize for my last post. Here's what I wish I had said.

trynhard,

Please, find someone who espouses the same values as LS but who leads a life that's actually in tune with those values.

You'll have a lot more success defending those values than defending LS herself.

A couple of other points:

1) Even if one spouse pushes the other away, cheating is still out of line. Being pushed away can be a reason for D, but it's absolutely not an excuse or reason for cheating.

2) Most of us are wired to respond sexually to other human beings. But we are also wired to be able to live without instant gratification. A picture of Salma Hayek does make me think of having sex, but I have no trouble waiting for an appropriate time and place to do so. (BTW, the sex she makes me think of is with my W.) Also, I can see and even talk with a beautiful woman IRL without needing sexual release, even though my hormones are raging. The world is filled with very attractive potential sex partners, but it's never been difficult for me to stay faithful to my W.

3) I never had a desire to spread my seed. In fact, the possibility of unwanted pregnancy was the main reason I passed up more opportunities than I accepted.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:36 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday)]

sisoon..

You'll have a lot more success defending those values than defending LS herself.

I cannot disagree with you on that...

Peace.