SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

HardenMyHeart. Okay, we'll agree to disagree. I agree with my doctor.

This morning, after reading your contributions to my situation, I spoke to my husband and asked him what he wanted my input to be. Did he want me to butt out? Did he want me to be proactive for him?

I asked him if it was because of me - of us together so unhappy. I said that I was to the point that if that was it, I would be able to be apart. That I could do that now without being angry. (I could swear when I said that, I thought I saw him start to tear up - but I'm sure I was imagining it.)

He said that NO - it wasn't me. I said that I felt he was very depressed and that he should get help. That he wasn't doing anything to try to improve his life.

He said, "Well, what about you?" I answered that I was volunteering, I started a distributor business (one of those things like tupperware - but not tupperware.) That I was making every effort to do whatever I could do for the kids.

I suggested that he go to our homeopathic doctor. He said that it hadn't helped before. I pointed out that he had never really followed through with what he was told to do. He said the money wasn't there right now. I said that he could have the money I have saved back for a trip I am taking in a few months. He said he can't leave because of work. (The homeopathic doctor is out of town.)

I asked if he planned to work out - because with his disability, if he doesn't work out, it greatly impairs his ability to do daily living skills. He said, "What about YOU?" I reminded him that I had been trying for a few months for him to go work out with me. He said I should go. I asked him if I was sick and needed a doctor, but there was no money for a doctor, would he spend hundreds of dollars for a membership somewhere to work out. He said no.

At some point he began to get mad. He told me that he didn't mind me saying things to him to help - that it wasn't what I said, but HOW I said it. I forget exactly what I said, but he got ill at me.

That was the end of the conversation. I got up and left. As I was coming back through the room, I said that he was the only human I have ever known that could find a way to be angry when someone asked him what he would like for them to do to help him.

However, when we got home from church, he asked me to make a remedy (homeopathy) for him. I did so immediately, and helped him use it. I helped him throughout the day to use it again and again. So, that felt like maybe he had "heard" me this morning.

THEN...

Tonight I found out that he has told our kids that he is not going to take them to a big sports competition next weekend because of how they were acting - whatever that means. This is a tournament that could be a huge determining factor in them getting a college scholarship. This is a HUGE slap in their face, and I am incensed at him.

He is like a child - any time anyone interrupts him, he pouts...but he interrupts all the time.

If he is watching something on TV that none of us like, and we do something different, I have to hear, "When I go into a room, everyone leaves." Boo Hoo. Poor me.

When he acts like an ass, and the kids respond in kind, they are being disrespectful and he is very resentful.

Its like a competition, and if my WH "loses" in his mind, then he makes them pay by not taking them to their competition.

Well, I asked him tonight if he said that to them (one of them had told me he was worried about how he would get there). My husband said that when they were acting ugly a couple of weeks ago he had told them he wasn't taking them.

I just came out of the bedroom and said to my son that I would take them. I said it where he could hear me.

He is burning bridges. He is acting in ways that are going to forever change his relationship with his kids. He is going too far.

I am so very angry.

And, I am trying to remember that he is very sick and depressed. I don't know what to do.

Sorry to bump this - but I am looking for some more insight.

For my husband to withdraw from our kids' competition (as described in my last post) is UNBELIEVABLE!

I think he is just existing.

When he acts like an ass, and the kids respond in kind, they are being disrespectful and he is very resentful.

WhatsRight, Do *you* respect Mr. WhatsRight?

I agree that you can't force someone to get help but doesn't want it. However, if I knew my husband had depression I would do everything in my power to get him the help if he was willing to let me. I think there is a point where some people need you to make the first step for them. It's such a tough situation to be in. My heart hurts for you.

Sorry, but I'm a Mama Bear. If he was affecting my kids like that, I'd be showing him the door. Let him go feel sorry for himself somewhere else. You have done cartwheels to get him to go for help and he is just laying there, enjoying the show.

You can't fix someone else. They have to want to fix themselves. When they start hurting kids, that's a whole new ballgame. This will make your kids feel they aren't top priority with you if you let their father continue this behaviour.

ladies_first...

WhatsRight, Do *you* respect Mr. WhatsRight?

No.

I cannot tell you how it hurts me to say that.

I do respect that he has overcome his disability (quadriplegia) for most of his life.

I do respect that he is an accomplished athlete (world classed).

I do respect that he has started a business out of our garage that has grown over the years and supports our family.

I do respect that he has provided for me and our children (adopted.)

I do NOT respect that he withdrew from me years ago.

I do NOT respect that he was unfaithful to me.

I do NOT respect that he has not done what it takes to contribute to our healing.

I do NOT respect that he is so weak at this time that he has given up on me, on us, on our kids, on our marriage, and worst of all - on himself.

Once at Retrouvaille we were talking about respect and love. The presenter said that women would rather be loved, but that men would rather be respected.

How can I respect him now? He is angry all the time. He looks for things to be mad at us about.

However, these same things - to me - are indications of how much pain he is in emotionally.

I have just this second remembered one thing that he always mentions when we have talked about the breakdown of the marriage (prior to infidelity.) He always brings up that he was sick for over a year with somee disability related issues, but "nobody cared".

This was about the same time I had mono and was bed ridden for 4 months. When he mentions it, I have always resented it - he never tells me how he is feeling, and I was bedridden at the time, AND it was when I found out about the infidelity.

Part of me feels "How dare he bring up that HE didn't feel well!"

But part of me is thinking that maybe this is a second chance for me to demonstrate my caring for him by making his health a priority. Maybe this is an "acts of service" need in him that is not being met.

I know I must help, but I just don't know how to do it.

ladies_first...

Can you tell me why you asked me that question?

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 1:37 PM, October 21st (Monday)]

Can you tell me why you asked me that question?

Sure. What's the title of your post? "WH has given up."

*If your WH feels/knows/believes that you do not respect him as a man -- specifically "He told me that he didn't mind me saying things to him to help - that it wasn't what I said, but HOW I said it."

*If your WH feels that his adopted kids do not respect him -- specifically "When I go into a room, everyone leaves."

**Then why wouldn't he give up? What -- or should I say WHO -- is his motivation to keep trying? If he feels neither respected nor loved, then perceived failure and resulting depression are a 'consequence' for feeling unloved and disrespected.

It's called a negative feedback loop (remember when you googled "Learned Helplessness"?)

ETA:

The presenter said that women would rather be loved, but that men would rather be respected.

And the negative feedback loop in the woman's head says "He doesn't give me love, so why should I give him respect?"

[This message edited by ladies_first at 2:18 PM, October 21st (Monday)]

ladies_first...

I so appreciate the time and thought you put into responding to my posts. Seriously!

But this...

**Then why wouldn't he give up? What -- or should I say WHO -- is his motivation to keep trying? If he feels neither respected nor loved, then perceived failure and resulting depression are a 'consequence' for feeling unloved and disrespected.

I understand this, but wouldn't the answer be the motivation to keep trying should be HIM?

Isn't this the same thing I have appreciated hearing sometimes from people when a BS just has no will to keep trying? Do it for yourself.

Also, wouldn't it be motivating that I work endlessly toward finding resourses for us to use to heal? Doesn't that show a desire to make things better?

I married my husband late in life. We truly had a remarkable connection at the beginning - like everyone else I suppose.

Then, life started happening. Once, I said - after the kids came - that they had to come first. I meant that if we have needs like "things" or "wants", but the kids were in need as well - they would have to come first. Example: I really want to go out of town for the weekend with him, but one of the kids is sick - so we put them first and don't go.

My WH interpreted that as "The kids are more important than you - I love them more".

Then he started withdrawing from me. Then the infidelity. Then the lies and defensiveness.

Not to say I didn't contribute. I overreacted to his withdrawing by begging and chasing for his love and attention. which - of course - made him withdraw more.

And I can't imagine what vile things I must have said to him on dday. I can't even remember, but I'm sure it was awful.

I don't even know what I am trying to say.

He is depressed. So am I. He is weak. But so am I. But, truth be told, he is weaker. So "to whom much is given, much is expected."

I know it is up to me to use whatever strength I have for the good, and that if I can make a difference now, I know he would take up the slack if ever we are in opposite situations.

I asked him if it was because of me - of us together so unhappy. I said that I was to the point that if that was it, I would be able to be apart. That I could do that now without being angry. (I could swear when I said that, I thought I saw him start to tear up - but I'm sure I was imagining it.)

You just told him that you didn't need him.

What was your motivation behind that statement?

Did his tears of pain not make you take pause?

[This message edited by ladies_first at 6:48 PM, October 21st (Monday)]

IMHO-

I don't think being honest with a grown man is a problem/issue.

And by telling him that you could live without him is just being honest.

You are not a soothsayer ...you cannot read his mind. If by his actions he is miserable and recalcitrant it would seem to any mature person that he doesn't like you and does not want to engage.

I know that you love your husband. He may look and maybe even smell like your husband but if he doesn't act like a loving husband AND he has disrespected you for years by being insulting, passive aggressive and the ultimate insult to betray you...I think your question was right on the money.

Respect has to be earned. Trust once it is broken is very difficult to to restore. Especially from someone who vowed to love, honor and cherish you.

Unfortunately your WH has drug you down with his dysfunctional behavior for quite some time. For the survival and well being of yourself and your kids you may have to ditch the anchor to save the ship...he seems like the type of guy who is willing to sink the ship with you and the kids in it.

Even someone who feels crappy could say thanks for you trying to help.

It's like your trying to give your WH a push on his bicycle and he is dragging feet ...how long can you keep this up?

(((((WhatsRight and kids)))))

You just told him that you didn't need him.

What was your motivation behind that statement?

Oh, no. That ^^^ was not my intention. For so long, he has (from time to time - not continuously) mentioned divorce. He has seemed to "want out" at times. Every time in the past, when he has mentioned it, I have begged and "guilted" him into staying.

A couple of years ago, I calmly (not defiantly) explained that I wouldn't be asking him to stay any more. I told him that if he wanted to leave, I wouldn't beg him to stay.

What I said to him about being able to be apart without anger - I said this to "set him free". To give him the freedom to leave if being with me was the sadness in his life. I meant it to be a gift to him.

He has told me on several occasions that he can't stand to look at me because he sees the pain in my face. I think he has given up on "us" and just wants to be rid of me because I am a 'constant reminder' of the infidelity.

For the survival and well being of yourself and your kids you may have to ditch the anchor to save the ship...

I have to say that while I see the logic in this statement, I have to respectfully disagree. I cannot "ditch" the anchor. That anchor is my husband. He is in need - I need to figure out what to do to help him for as long as I am physically and emotionally able to do so. JMHO.

But this...

Even someone who feels crappy could say thanks for you trying to help.

This really got me. I soooo agree with this. I don't know if his failure to do this is indicitive of being a jerk, or being so deep in his depression he is unable to reach out of it even that much.

For anyone willing to read this much already, I would like to share something else.

Yesterday, by way of text, we had a long discussion. I certainly don't think texting is the ideal venue for a serious discussion, but if he doesn't have to see the pain in my face and is willing to actually converse, I'll take what I can get.

I am posting this to get feedback on how we communicate. (2x4s are OK - I'm not foolish enough to believe this is good communication!)

Here's how it went...

Me: This is really close the the most awful thing you've ever done to your children. _____ has never ever done anything to you but serve you and work for you. I can't even believe you would consider not going to his _______ tournament his senior year. I can't even fathom it.

HIM: We'll discuss later trying to work.

ME: Well I certainly don't want to bother you with something as unimportant as this

HIM: How many times did you not go to their tournaments because you didn't feel wanted?

ME: I gave up going so that you could have that time as a special thing for you and them. And any time I did not feel wanted, it was that I didn't feel wanted by you.

HIM: Always my fault

HIM: That's not a reason to not support your kids and I was planning on going and was talking to ____ last night about it so I don't know what ______ is talking about. I guess he doesn't want us to go.

ME: Well, you told each of them only last night that you would not be going - so I think it is a little rediculous to say that you can't imagine how they would think that you are not going. They both have told me that you also told them weeeks ago you would not be going because of how they were acting bad. So, I guess it was good responsibility on their part to try to get another ride since their dad said he would not take them. I am trying to figure out how this particular incident is not your fault.

HIM: I never said that last night. When do they become accountable for their actions? I actually said that 3-4 weeks ago wshen they hadn't trained in 3 weeks and gained their weight back - not taking a national tournament serious and still haven't in my opinion, so I was angry at that time trying to get them to wake up - but as usual, it all falls back on me.

ME: Yes, I think it is wrong to tell your kids "hope you can find somebody to drive you to the _____ tournament" as a threat because you don't think they're taking their training serious enough. Why do you think that it is necessary to hold them to the same standard that you say you held yourself to? Are you intentionally trying to make them feel bad about themselves? And, by the way, why is your 'not feeling wanted' so much more horrible than when I haven't felt wanted? Why is it that the would is out to get YOU, but the rest of us - our feelings don't matter as much as yours do.

HIM: Please! It doesn't matter what I say - you have some comeback that has no concern for my feelings.

(Sarcasm alert)

ME: Okay, you're right. You have no accountability here - none of this was brought on by you. It was all in our imagination. We are so sorry that you are hurt by this. We are so sorry that your are hurt that you told your kids you were not taking them to a national tournament.

HIM: Forget it. Y'all decide if you want me to go or not since you and _____ can talk to each other. As he said, I don't listen to him but you do and at the tournament he hardly talks to me unless he wants money for food. I feel and you make me feel like I am a bad father so I'm used to people putting me down and not agreeing with me. I know this won't make sense to you, but I don't know how to argue or discuss anything with you. You always take the opposite side.

(I thought that is what an arguement was)

ME: If only you thought it was important enough to see somebody to get some help with our communicating - if only.

HIM: My feelings are not important because I have been way down the list for 20 years. Noone has ever helped.

(This is where I became enraged)

ME: It is so amazing that you can even begin to say that to me. You withdrew from me, and after that you started going to other women. I have always been here - always - searching for ways to make things better. I cannot do it alone. It feels to me like you would rather hold on to the pain thatn to try to get the help that is needed to be happy. It feels like we are just not worth the effort to you.

HIM: Thanks for the forgiveness - that you always have to bring that up and throw it in my face.

ME: Forgiveness for something and being assisted in healing from it are two separate things. If you are going to accuse me of being the one to put you last all these years, after what you have put me through, do not expect me not to remind you of your part in this. I don't have any reason to put your hurts up against my hurts and see who hurts the worst. But I will tell you this, the next time you want to put me down because nobody wants you, you think how you would feel if I had done what you have. Think how you would feel then.

HIM: I do everyday.

ME: Really? You really "get it"? If that is true, how can you continue to put your hurts above mine?

HIM: I don't!!!!!!

ME: Well then, what has this whole text exchange been about?

HIM: I guess I'm not suppose to hurt and I guess it has been about what a slime I am!

ME: Always, always, always about how YOU are mistreated and misunderstood and hurt. Always. What about the hurt that ______ and ______ feel that you told them you were not going to their tournament? What about their hurt? Does that matter at all to you? Or are we just going to focus on how this hurts you? And if you are hurting so badly, why is it that you are not willing to do what it takes to try to overcome the hurt and mend fences with you family? I have screwed up, and I am more than wiling to get help. But I can't do it alone.

HIM: They have not shown any or expressed any hurt or seem to care.

ME: They don't always show their feelings. You of all people should understand this. And - the $64million question would be, what about my pain? Is there no evidence of that?

HIM: Fine. What do you want. (I think we texted on top of each other here) Everyday, every time I look at you!!!!!!!!!

ME: Wow - such a gracious invitation. What I want is for the leaders of this family - that would be you and I - to step up - even if it is out of our comfort zone, and do what it takes to give this family some relief from the hurt and the chaos. I guess you are in a mess. Because if you see pain in my face every time you look at me - and this is the reason you don't look at me - what you need to know is that a big part of my pain is because you don't look at me and you don't see me. So I really don't know what will come of this, because I hurt when you don't look at me and you say you don't look at me because of my pain. Seems like there is no way out, doesn't it? And I feel this is your excuse to just say, there's nothing that can get better, so just forget it. That's what I feel like you're doing to me. That's the importance I believe I hold for you - that you feel if its going to be a lot of trouble - just forget it.

HIM: I'm not doing that, that's the meaning you are placing on it.

ME: Yes it is. You are right. And the fact that it is the meaning it has for me should be more important than whether or not my perception is accurate. It is how I feel. And you have spoken about how your hurts are not valued, and yet you have no value for my feelings - just because its simply my perception. My perception is all I have because you don't offer me any other way to look at it.

WHEW

I know how dysfunctional this is. When I make a comment to him in person, via email, or via text - such as the one I made at this first of this exchange, his usual response is not to respond. So when he does respond, all of the things I have wanted to talk about for months just comes pouring out of me. And it is almost always exaggerated to some extent.

I truly believe that we have what it takes to mend. I guess that is why I am holding on. But I know we are past being able to do it ourselves.

If you are still reading - bless your heart!

And thank you!