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Just curious.....I responded to another SI member who was curious if she should contact the other BS.

I advised her to tell the other BS, as most all SI members advised her too.

I told my wifes AP BS before it was a topic at our MC session. My wife was against it from the beginning...for obvious reasons. But when this topic came up in MC session our MC was STRONGLY against it....coming back to it 3 times in one hour....basically ordering me to NOT tell my wifes AP wife of their A. Seemed curious to me because prior to this our MC was all about truths and dispelling lies. Also curious because my wife took her EA to PA while in weekly counseling sessions with this counselor (fooling me and our counselor)....seems like our counselor would want as much light on this as possible.

At the time I suspected our MC had intimate experience with adultery or infidelity....perhaps even being the WS. I mentioned this to my wife, she thought I was being ridiculous. I questioned my contacting his wife for about 10 seconds after our MC session.....then got back to the fact it was the right thing to do.

To date I have seen it as the single smartest, honest, most courageous action I could have taken. It was the RIGHT thing to do. My wife now agrees with me.

What I am looking for in this post is those who have been in professional MC and the advice that was given to them at that time...what was that advice?

Most books I have read (17-20) on adultery and infidelity strongly recommend that all lies be hidden, that all parties involved be notified. To be sure these books also say to be prepared for the ostrich-affect....that the other BS may not want to know and bury their heads in the sand. So no where was it advised to try and HELP the other BS....in fact, some books go as far as to say keep the notification short, fact filled, and as emotion-less as possible.

I am asking because we no longer are in MC but suspect a counselor will be a part of our near future. We have VERY limited counselors to choose from....had a lead on one, but don't really appreciate his style with the couple we know who is seeing them.

Anway.....how many of my fellow SI members had professional advice given to them regarding to tell or not to tell the other BS? What was that advice...and any justification given with that advice?

I am not at all questioning my actions or the motives behind them. Out of the many tough challenges I have faced over the past 14 months, this action of meeting with the OMs wife was one of my strongest moments....no question I did the right thing.

Thank you for your time reading my post.

God be with us all.

My MC and IC both told me to examine my motives in contacting the other BS. I decided based on mOM current actions to send the PI report to his betrayed spouse. What she does with it is up to her.

My MC thinks that is fine. My IC thinks I did it out of some misguided idea or revenge, retaliation, or retribution.

I think they advise against it because they are trying to help the people in their office, not create more drama. Or, as in my case, the 1st H of the OW murdered the OM and then killed himself. Maybe counselors are worried about the liability?

However, as they say at Alanon, few can really understand where we are except those who have really been in the same position.

I still say,,, tell the OBS, but with proof...or they will take it underground. When everyone is living in reality, these affairs are brought into the light of reality.

Our MC said to definitely tell. Her reasoning was that it made the death of the A more likely to be permanent. She even said that it would be an extra pair of eyes "watching".

But that is not why I informed him. I told him bc I would have wanted him to tell me if the situation was reversed. I hadn't even thought it through as far as health issues or all the other reasons you need to know. I just knew that I would have been pretty mad if he had known and hadn't bothered to tell me.

This is kind of a soapbox issue for me bc of the way As flourish in secrecy. And bc there seems to be societal attitudes supporting that. Which just keeps the cycle going.

I would support a BS no matter what they decided on this issue, but honestly I think we pretty much have a responsibility to tell.

I think they advise against it because they want to discourage the revenge idea.

I'm going to be perfectly honest- I stand on my high horse and tell everyone her that telling the other BS is the right thing to do, it is dangerous for them not to know, etc... And all of those reasons are very true.

However none of those were my main motivating factor in telling anytime I have had to tell someone. My main reason? I LOVE it when cheaters have the rug ripped out from under them. I LOVE that they are exposed and get some sort of justice. I LOVE IT! I love that I get to be part of putting an end to cheating. Part of it, at least for me, is about revenge.

I am a firm believer that the right thing done, even for the wrong reasons, is still the right thing.

However, MC probably want to discourage anything that looks slightly like revenge.

Well we had 3 MC's and the first two said to not tell and were fired. They weren't fired for that exclusively (one did not think it was my business what happened in my W's A.)

Most professional fields vary wildly in quality of services rendered. Counseling is a prime example. Buyer beware. That said, a good therapist is worth their weight in gold.

take care...

A number of years ago my WS suggested that we see a MC. She was someone recommended by a client of his. We saw her over a number of months. Unbeknown to me he saw her alone and told her of his on going affair (ten years to that date) and requested that she didn't tell me. He had told the MC that the affair was 'over.' He also told her about two other affairs that he had had during that time. I, of course, had no awareness of any of these affairs.

The MC did what he asked of her and she 'counselled' us while enabling him to lie during its entirety. In effect, SHE 'didn't tell' - only it was ME that she didn't tell.

Looking back on this with the gift of hindsight and with MY input in the full knowledge of ALL of his affairs, he realises that she was completely wrong and should not even be allowed to counsel in any way, shape or form. She completely compromised her position as a counsellor of any ilk.

There are so many marital counsellors and therapists out there who are poorly trained, biased in favour of one or other of their clients or simply stupid.

Your MC is absolutely wrong to give any advice like this. It is imperative that the other BS has full knowledge of the affair. Nothing (generally) drives an affair into the open more than full disclosure to all sides. (This, unfortunately was not the case with me: the BS of OW with whom my WS was 'in love' knew of the affair for the entire TWELVE years and did nothing to end it...)

We were past that point when we went to MC.

But for me as a BS, MOW's BS threatened WH. He said to "tell him (BS) everything or he would tell me". Which from my point of view, MOW's BS was treating me as a pawn for his use. His intentions weren't at all kind towards me. I can understand him being mad, but we had all been friends in the past also.

I guess it depends on your intentions. I would have been PISSED if someone other then WH told me. I HATE the fact that WH told me just because he was threatened.

We were past that point when we went to MC.

But for me as a BS, MOW's BS threatened WH. He said to "tell him (BS) everything or he would tell me". Which from my point of view, MOW's BS was treating me as a pawn for his use. His intentions weren't at all kind towards me. I can understand him being mad, but we had all been friends in the past also.

I guess it depends on your intentions. I would have been PISSED if someone other then WH told me. I HATE the fact that WH told me just because he was threatened.

I think there probably isn't a black and white answer. MCs aren't in the morality business -- they want the best for the couple sitting in front of them. Is it better or worse for the couple in counseling if the other BS knows? It depends. As some people pointed out, given that the other BS ia an unknown quantity, you could have a very serious situation on your hands.

So, I think people here are reacting from a more moral/practical POV (with perhaps a bit of revenge mixed in.) In my case, I wasn't sure if the OBS knew for a few weeks, and would have likely told eventually. However, there were kids involved, and I worried about his reaction and how it would affect them. So, there were exegencies. (OW had led my H to believe that he would likely leave her and the kids. Which, OBS confirmed to me was actually his knee jerk reaction, although he didn't.)

To be sure I did NOT tell the other BS until after they failed to kill their A on their own. I totally get the pain adultery causes and sincerely did not want to add to this.

The kicker to that, of course, is that the BS did not create this pain....the pain is there in both marriages, it is just hidden to the other BS.

I did contact my wife AP immediately via cell phone upon my DD....he did not answer but instead choose to text me the whole "I didn't know it got so serious with your wife. I never intended...blah blah blah" thing. So it was not my first intention to contact his wife nor was revenge a primary motive.

I choose to present the factual information I had to his wife only after their A went underground again. (What a dreadful time.....the intentionallity of the hurts my wife was capable of choosing after DD still make me shutter)

There is precedents for my courses of action.....bring the sin into light and allow the person committing it to stop and repent from it. If that does not happen, you bring the sin into the light for a small group of others to bare witness to. If that doesn't work you separate yourself from the sin and let God deal with it.

If my wife chooses adultery again it will be time to take the third step in that process...and D will be a part of my journey.

My Pastor helped me see that there is a time for righteous anger....and protecting ones family is a time for righteous anger. My wifes A was a threat to my M and to our family. The threat my wifes A was to our family and to his family was a threat my wife was very slow to admit to...but it was very real (I think this is common thinking for many WS....the thought that "sure it was damaging and hurtful to my spouse....but I would NEVER damage or hurt my children!")

I mention this to point out their is a difference between revenge and righteous anger. One is unhealthy and one is healthy.

To be sure the place and time for righteous anger is acute in nature....meaning it is enacted sternly but briefly and then is not to be re-used over the same offense....it is not a manipulation tool, it is a tool used for protection.

Back to MC advice......

I am sorry to hear this from sohowamI

A number of years ago my WS suggested that we see a MC. She was someone recommended by a client of his. We saw her over a number of months. Unbeknown to me he saw her alone and told her of his on going affair (ten years to that date) and requested that she didn't tell me. He had told the MC that the affair was 'over.' He also told her about two other affairs that he had had during that time. I, of course, had no awareness of any of these affairs.

There MIGHT be moral ground for this in IC (client, doctor privelages thing....though if our spouses tested positive for AIDS I would expect the doctor to make sure the other spouse knew about the very real threat)....but fail to see any moral ground for this in MC.

Having lived through this I fail to see any WS really killing their A until something drastic happens.....where is the motivation? Where would the pain of "same" ever trump the pain of "change" in that scenario? (where the A was kept secret). The "good" feeling of being in an A is obviously so strong, so intoxicating that left to ones on accord...few see the value in ending it. right?

God help us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:24 AM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

Anway.....how many of my fellow SI members had professional advice given to them regarding to tell or not to tell the other BS? What was that advice...and any justification given with that advice?

We had several counselors. The original counselors told me not to tell. Told my wife not to expose my affair. They were all about me keeping my secrets and it fueled my entitlement.

The last counselor we used was by phone. They are a group out of Minneapolis that specializes in recovering from infidelity. Very high success rate. I was skeptical, but it worked beautifully.

We have since discovered the original counselors were all having or have had affairs. No big surprise given the advice - that we paid for.

((Climbing up on my soap box))

I have very little use for the counseling profession as a whole. Given that they have, as a whole, below an 18% success rate, it's obvious to me that most have no idea what they are doing.... If surgeons had that low of a success rate, wow, lets just be glad they don't... Which is why we chose the specialists we chose based on their success rates.

The counseling profession works with our mental health! That's a big deal! They should be challenged on their success rates as well as their personal character. They need to be above reproach and have moral character that far exceeds the average. They should not be herded into insurance pools that are formed to help those most desperate in need of new clients, and we should not be so gullible as to use someone on an insurance list of cheapest providers. ((stepping down from my soap box))

Hi bionicgal...good to hear from you.

I think there probably isn't a black and white answer. MCs aren't in the morality business -- they want the best for the couple sitting in front of them.

I am torn on this. Adultery is morally wrong....this is not blakesteele arbitrarily assigning moral value to this, it is a fact....right?

There are also health risks involved...and, in my case (and many others) no condoms were used, my wife was not on birth control, and she was having sex with both of us during her affair.

I also agree a good MC wants the best for the couple in front of them....and that could be D or R. But isnt honesty and exposing the acute affliction that adultery is to all "adults" involved what is best for the couple sitting in MC?

If the other BS is a "boil your bunny" type of person...is that our burden of risk to bear? Is this risk not there anyway? Just by NOT communicating the facts we know to the other BS does not eliminate the risk of this scenario playing out.

Could my wifes AP not have turned out to be a "player" and instead could have been so attached to my wife that he harrassed me or our girls?

Adultery is filled with "unknown quantities". I think we all agree that until truths are "known"...real healing, real growth, real maturing is impossible (or at least severly hindered).

To be sure I am grateful in my specific case that STD's, pregnancies, sociopathic personalities are NOT part of my mix. The fact is, all of these were a risk my wife brought into our M....it was not by any of my doing.

I am bias, I still have moments thinking the cross that I must bare is "not fair". So I conceed my strong feelings to alert the other BS are coming from this perspective.

Truthfully, in my situation....my wifes AP is onto another woman....and his wife is allowing this. I have no desire to reach out to his wife. I have no desire to fill her in on the fact that my wife had sex with her husband....at the time of my contacting her my facts only corroberated "their" story that it had been "just and EA". I did mention to his wife that I have no proof that our spouses had sex with each other, but that the emails were so erotic in nature I suspected physical activity was a part of their affair.

I have since learned multiple unprotected sex acts were engaged in. Since my wifes STD tests were all negative I did not see the need to contact his wife again.

Had my wife tested positive I would have conveyed that information to his wife. I am so thankful for this aspect of my journey....what are the odds of two mid-life aged people who committ adultery to be STD free? I have since learned my wife was not his first and he has another woman now....increasing the odds of STD's being present.

I am in a bit of a tough spot right now....shared a lot more on this post then my original question put out there.

Thanks to all who chimed in.

I think at the end of the day MC are people too. And just like medical doctors, you can get one that resonates and helps you or you get one that is just mediocre. We, unfortunately, got a mediocre MC.

Truthfully....not really all her fault. We transitioned to her and never formally engaged her on her skills with infidelity. She is not a specialist in this type of counseling...she is more of a family counselor.

From what I see here on SI, those couples who are really benefiting from MC are with an infidelity specialist....not a general grief, family counselor. Our counselor was outstanding with regards to her working with me on anxiety issues...had 3 sessions with her BEFORE my DD. After DD my anxiety seemed like childs play.....aaahhhhh the good old days!

God be with us all.

(((Card)))

Yeah, that was a hug....and I know you are a man. I do that to SI members who share so honestly with me...and I sincerely appreciate your openness to me via your post.

A couple of things about your post.....

The last counselor we used was by phone. They are a group out of Minneapolis that specializes in recovering from infidelity. Very high success rate. I was skeptical, but it worked beautifully.

Phone in counseling? Never heard of such a thing. It works? Any concerns about the therapist NOT being able to observe things like body language? Was it similar cost to in-person counseling? This is very exciting for me because counselors of ANY type are slim in my neck of the woods.

We have since discovered the original counselors were all having or have had affairs. No big surprise given the advice - that we paid for.

Due to the STRONG response from our previous MC I suspected this could be a possibility for our counselor as well. I say this because she is typically so soft spoken, so "gray" in her guidance...that to see her so "animated" on this one point was shocking. May I ask how you came to make the above statement? Did a counselor actually admit to this?

As I listen to a prominent psycologist talk show on XM radio it does appear to me that many LCSW's actually enter the field to work on their own issues....a number of callers are counselors who have been personally affected by adultery.

Just looking at some of the data I have seen (30-80% of marriages are affected by infidelity), the simple odds of a MC being biased via personal experience seem to be at least 1 in 3. Not sure if that logic is correct...and my sample size is a 3 hour radio show...but your statement could explain the sub-par help we recieved in our MC sessions.

Given that they have, as a whole, below an 18% success rate, it's obvious to me that most have no idea what they are doing.... If surgeons had that low of a success rate, wow, lets just be glad they don't... Which is why we chose the specialists we chose based on their success rates.

Boy...if this is even 50% correct that gives us a 1 in 3 shot (36% on the high end) of finding a good MC!

At first I put so much emphasis on MC....absolutely had to have it to make this work. I have since backed off on that. To be sure IC was incredibly helpful to me...helped me meet parts of MYSELF I never knew existed. 'Course, that is because the people involved (ME) were really committed to changing and growing. Much of our MC session took place during my wifes A and flowed into the trickle truthing stage as well as an extended fog stage. So I say we were in MC for 12 months...really, it was about 5 months of anything closely related to real, substantial MC.

Again, I wonder why our MC was content to watch us do what we did for the first 6 months? I get that this is a process....but, dang, really? A trained professional can't nudge or instruct or lead better than ours did? Where was the "Okay, enough bull shit....if you guys want to make this work you need to do x, y, z. If that doesnt work, I have a, b, c,." mode of assistance?

Thanks again Card.....very good to read your post to me.

God be with us all.

We didn't tell the MOW's BS because my husband's AP was a complete psychopath and her husband completely under her control.

And, his AP would have reveled in any extra attention and games, bedded more lies and loved any contact whether good or bad even if it was because of telling her husband. As an aside, her kids already knew because she included and used them in the affair with mail and phone calls- YES, his AP is a real psychopath!

On the flip side of this....with regards to success rates.....

Adultery is such a "mystical" event. My own wife hid it from me and her sister during the first few months. Then she was able to hide it from our counselor as she took her EA to the PA level.

I am paying attention to my gut now that adultery is an option for my wife...but even with that, she could be conducting an A as I type this. I don't think she is, but she very well could be...and that is the fact.

My point is....how could real "success rates" be checked and verified?

I could be an ostrich BS and my wife could be a hardcore adulterer.....after a month or two of counseling we could decide we are "fixed", present the facade to our MC that she did a GREAT job! and go back to our pathetic ways.....meanwhile that MC would count us in the "success" column.

Honestly, this "mystical" component to adultery is one reason I believe the percentages of marriages affected by it has such a large variance....30-80% (gleaned from reading 17-20 books on infidelity, many with case studies and research conducted presented within them).

Can you imagine keeping your job if you reported such a large "margin of error" to your Board of Directors? No way would I keep my job if I told them a project will cost between $1.1 million and $2 million dollars!!! I would be fired for my lack of knowledge of the project they hired me to manage!!!!

This is plus or minus $900k on a $1.1 million dollar base line project! The only certainty in number projections like this is that.....certainty is uncertain.

I am analytical to a fault....this is why numbers and percentages capture my attention.

Peace to us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:19 AM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

Sorry, I don't know how to quote. . but this is from Blakesteele;

*** "I also agree a good MC wants the best for the couple in front of them....and that could be D or R. But isnt honesty and exposing the acute affliction that adultery is to all "adults" involved what is best for the couple sitting in MC?"***

I guess I'd challenge how a MC could know this. What if BS in the couple being treated has a history of being a victim of violence (and even if not, they have had a terrible trauma just inflicted on them) and the spouse of the AP is a loose cannon? Or has poor boundaries? Or shows up on the doorstep? Or harrasses the kids? The MC can't say categorically what is best.

Like you, BS, I felt lucky that none of these things came to pass. But, my guess is that MCs who focus solely on the couple in front of them are trying to limit mitigating factors. They are dealing with a trauma in a relationship, and the other BS is not an important part of that equation. (And, as many of us come to see, the actual AP is largely tangential as well.)

So, if one wants to live life with a spirit of honesty and openness, and one feels an ethical obligation to do so, then one would likely want to share with the spouse of the AP what happened, if it is safe to do so. But, there is always a danger of involving another variable in the situation that may have more negative effects on the couple than positive.

I'll admit, I was partly hesitant to let the spouse of the AP know what happened because I feared he would leave her and my H would feel an obligation to her and her 'plight.' I don't doubt he would have, for a while. None of that came to pass, but it was a real worry. Now he is de-fogged, but at the time is was a terrifying proposition.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 10:21 AM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

(((nowgood)))

Sorry for your situation. I totally get what is at play in your home and support your decisions.

If I may be so bold to ask a question. It sounds as if your husbands AP is mentally off. How are you working through the fact that your husband choose this type of person to commit adultery with?

It is something I am processing through. Initially, my limited knowledge (combined with my FOO issues) led me to believe my wifes AP was generally a "decent man". I have since learned my wife was not his first and he is onto another woman...but does that even make a difference?????

That is his journey to travel....but I must process the fact that this is the type of man my wife choose over me. This is the type of man my wife jeopardized our family over, endangered our girls future over. He is a father of 5...he was as willing to seek his fullfillment over fulfilling his role as husband and father. I think it would be easier to stomach this choice they both made if one of them was single.....but that is me still lightly lingering for a "better past"....I have really processed most of the way through that stage.

I have chased this rabbit before....am almost to the conclusion the quality of the character of any man that committs adultery is the same....or maybe more accurately stated, the after affects on the BS's and the danger and risk to the afflicted families is the same.

So it matters not that my wifes AP likes his lifestyle of cheating and not protecting his family, or if he was a Pastor and my wife was his first.

If a man serves soup at a homeless shelter and adopts orphans but commits murder....is he still not a murderer? Is the sin affecting the family who lost a loved one afflected at the same level with grief and sense of loss?

Just curious how you are processing through this aspect of adultery. 14 months out and I still wrestle with this.

Perhaps this will be a post of its own....but thought this was a good time to chase that rabbit a bit more.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:33 AM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

(((bionicgal)))

Points well stated in your last post to me. THANK YOU!!!! I am a black and white thinker and is good to have some gray explained to me in a firm yet kind way....and you did that.

I get your point about telling the other BS, causing a D, and your H feeling some obligation for taking care of her...maybe even leaving you for her.

At the point I reached when I decided to tell his wife about the affair I thought about this too. But at that point I was very willing to have my wife leave our M to follow her bliss. I had done almost 2 months of hurtful things to myself in a vane attempt to save a M that was killed by my wifes choices...

Through IC sessions, with the very counselor I am complaining about with regards to MC, I was finally able to tap into my RAGE and find the self worth that I beat down inside me (due to FOO issues).

My continued concern is not if my wife will file for D or not....it is how this is affecting our girls. Her AP has 5 kids and his wife is prone to drinking. It is conceivable that our girls will have a traumatic experience administered to them via his kids directly....or via the small-town gossip network, which has already had a taste of what my wife and her AP did. The fact that he continues to dog other women outside of his marriage heightens the risk to our girls.

Sadly, I have no control over that variable. My wife and I are as alert as we ever have been regarding our surroundings and our girls.

I pray every day that God keeps them safe from this trauma....trauma that is dang tough to stomach for the adults involved to handle...I fear it impossible for a 6 and 9 year old to handle.

......all of this concern was categorically absent in both my wife and her AP during their affair.....

I also pray for continued courage to do that which is not fair but is right....and to recognize what is right....and to recognize that which I have no control over.

Energy continues to be in limited supply. I have chased fruitless rabbits before.....learning to sit and really look at each rabbit now and determine which is worthy of a chase.

Bionicgal....I think you just made it clear in my head this rabbit is not worth chasing anymore. thanks.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:46 AM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

BS -

My H laughingly (and sheepishly) has to apologize often for not picking a "better" AP. It certainly is ironic.

Remember, it was not a comptetition between you and him. It was him, or not him. . . like a drug. Use, or not use.

(((blakesteele)))