SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think Wondertwin gave you great advice.

You know, my WS TTd me for months. He said he had sex with her once, and then ended things. For various reasons, I just knew that wasn't the truth. I knew he was still lying to me, and it was driving us both crazy. I would ask for the truth, and he would say he'd given it to me, and I just KNEW he was still withholding.

The day that he finally broke down and told me everything, I knew in an instant that he had told me everything. I can't explain it well, but it was like for months I had been living with a different version of my WS and the minute he told me the truth it was like he was the same man again.

What I am saying is, you know your WS best olwen. If you really sit with the letter he gives you, and it gives you peace and you believe him, and you know in your heart - then it is okay to have faith in your own judgement.

Olwen, when I asked what he was doing to become safe, I didn't mean the stuff you've listed---most of which is external (even if some do address his safety and yours). Taking your son on business trips is WONDERFUL--don't misunderstand. But it does NOTHING to address his brokenness.

I mean what internal work is he doing? What is he doing, in IC? What is he doing to explore the brokenness you've both accepted as the reason behind his vulnerability to this affair?

It's not enough to find the why. He needs to repair it. If he does not, he will remain vulnerable. Trust me on this---you WILL have another d-day unless he does the hard, hard work.

solus sto - I see what you mean, forgive my misunderstanding.

He is dying to get into IC, he wants to get to the root of it. I am pretty sure we already have a lot of it though. We talk every day and he has posted about it in wayward. He is looking at his past, his relationships with his family and previous women.

He was cheated on in his first relationship and he was deprived of ANY affection from his family. They are manipulative and cruel.

His main focus for now is setting up boundaries. we discussed them but as my list shows he has added his own too.

He has looked at how he fell into the affair, how he avoids conflict etc. He has seen how he doesn't share his emotions with me, he never has cos at home they were ignored.

He can only do so much alone, but when the bike sells he will do IC.

For now he has set his boundaries, is working to give me all the answers I need, is working on being a better husband and father. Learning more about when he feels he can't say no and speaking up more and more. He is telling me his troubles and letting me in on his emotions.

For me the key thing is he is never really away from me. He loves nothing more now than being home with his family and everything else including work is just a way to give us a better life. We are his priority now.

The other big thing is he talks! My God does he talk. I have gone from having Neanderthal man grunts for 18years to real heart to hearts every single day. HE even comes home on his lunch and we talk some more. He holds nothing back now.

I hope this was the kind of stuff you meant? He also read how to help your spouse heal from your affair and will be posting much more when he has done the letter for me.

Sorry for this but I said to him this morning I don't know if I can carry on using SI as they just don't believe you at all and I know at least 90% of what you have told me is true. He surprised me by saying even it they don't believe I won't stop coming on and I don't want you to because it really helps.

That has to be good.

Chico - you're quite right.

His actions, demeanour, and heartbreak are clear to see. He breaks down every day over some part of what he has done.

He looks right into my eyes and I can see the shame and self hatred clearly. HE is repulsed by his actions and wants to move heaven and earth to fix things.

I am realising through all this writing just how much I do believe what he has told me so far. I have sat with that story for 6 months now and although I have had my doubts it's what we both keep coming back to.

I have to remember I have known him for 18years. I know the scraped he gets into like buying a flatscreen tv from two cowboys in a supermarket carpark - guess what happened there lol. £200 gone in a puff of smoke.

He is very trusting and naïve and so desperate to be loved and wanted he will do things he doesn't want to to get that validation.

Olwen,

Namely he cannot say no to anybody. He gets walked all over at work, he will not say no or tackle the boss for overworking him, or even being rude or aggressive to him. He hates to even ask for his annual leave in case the boss grumbles. He HATES anyone being cross with him, cold with him - any form of rejection at all. if a neighbour needs help in the middle of his meal, he will leave it and go help - not say wait 20 mins he will just flat out leave his meal. He has always been this way. He won't stand up to his nightmare of a mother,

How can he stand up to you (i.e. tell you the truth) when you don't want to accept the truth?

Why does what he says have to be a lie? Is it not possible my weak husband was just that weak and not in a mad passion? Why does he have to have loved every second of what he did.

Because when he inches closer to the truth, you have a meltdown and then "text bomb" him at work with your insecurities.

Remember this last week after he confessed the truth?

And yet you wonder why I don't believe a word you say. How could you do this to me? ~ it's not been a good day. Not eaten again and took my temper out on my kitchen door so have a very battered hand right now. Made me feel better though. I was so worried it might upset or trigger someone but I had to get it out somewhere safe with people I know will understand. I kept texting h my angry thoughts

He tells you the truth. You hurt yourself. You stop eating. You text bomb him at work with your angry thoughts.

Have you made yourself safe for him to tell you the truth??

lost in Toronto - you have helped me see I most likely DO have the truth now.

What you describe is how I felt when it was 'just' an EA. I knew there was more even though he swore up hill and down dale there wasn't. I could see it in his eyes.

He was distant, snappy, arrogant, insulting. A monster in fact. I didn't know who this evil man was. The reason - he was hiding the PA.

The day he told me of the PA it all came pouring out. He told me every detail. How did he masturbate her, how long over her knickers, how long inside - I won't go on but incredibly graphic questions were answered equally graphically.

he hated it but gave me what I needed.

I have doubted his story but those parts are coming out now. Eg why did he sit in that car park with an inkling she may make a move if he didn't want sex - because he wanted to know she wanted him, he was too caught up in wanting that to think how he would refuse her though. He really wasn't thinking rationally. I hate to say it but he is not the world's greatest thinker. HE reacts, doesn't plan, goes with the flow - then gets caught on the hop.

The more I think about it the more it all makes sense. If I stop fighting it and telling myself he MUST have wanted it He MUST have fancied her. If I listen to him it does click. It's stupid but believe me he has got into trouble in the past for not thinking - many many times.

It's believable to me because I know him. I need to remember this.

I will see what his letter says, as you suggest, and see if it does make the last things click into place.

Ladies first - thank you for your post.

I came to that conclusion myself in another thread,

One thing I have realised but he never said is that I have not made it easy for him to be honest with me over the years. I am NOT blaming myself. He did not mention it. However I realised today that he seems to want to always tell me what I want to hear. I don't make it easy for him to tell me stuff. I tried to kill myself ffs! How could he feel able to tell me more? My therapist wants me to learn how to manage my extreme emotion and I think I must!

Just an observation I have made about myself. So I am trying to listen to him and not freak out.

He says this is why he changed his story to wanting her, cos it's what everyone on here said it MUST have been so I wouldn't listen when he tried to tell me the truth was that he didn't want her.

I am trying to work on that, it's hard.

He says the truth is what he has told me about not wanting it but that he changed it after I insisted he must be lying cos no one on here believed him. he didn't feel able to stick to the truth when I was adamant he was lying cos of what I read on here.

What makes you think what he told me last week was the truth and not the original story? I was just as devastated by his original story and he never changed that until I threatened to leave him. I think it's more likely the first story is correct and the second was to stop me leaving.

I guess I am just too confusable and easily led myself!

I am going to see what his letter says and make my own mind up.

[This message edited by olwen at 10:11 AM, November 18th (Monday)]

Now to the facts, disgusting as they are. It's what he said a few weeks ago and took back cos he didn't want to believe it. He DID fancy her, not enough that he would have been with her if he was single but for an affair she was perfect. Not interested in commitment just a bit of 'easy fun'. She was attractive enough to want to have sex with though. He DID want to have sex with her. I know a lot of you won't believe all of this but I really do. Basically he wanted whatever she offered. He resented me for my illness and the break down of our relationship

He DID fancy her. He did want her.

I am going to see what his letter says and make my own mind up.

Good! Great! I encourage you to focus on BOTH/AND ... not Either/Or.

But can you clarify what "moving forward" looks like in your own mind?

"He BOTH fancied her AND loved me and our son, so now we can focus on strong boundaries and an equitable marriage."

Can your bipolar mind make peace with BOTH/AND? Can you accept BOTH/AND? Or will you remain stuck in Either/Or?

Ladies first I find that HIGHLY insulting!

Can your bipolar mind make peace with BOTH/AND? Can you accept BOTH/AND? Or will you remain stuck in Either/Or?

Yes I am bipolar, yes I am open about it - no I don't deserve to be mocked because of it!

I am not handling this well. It is not easy to handle infidelity when you are well. It is not easy to handle it when you have a mental illness and are trying to make sense of a changing story!

Why do you only believe the 'he fancied her' version?

Is it not more likely that the 'he didn't fancy her' story is true as it is the one he gave me off his own back from the beginning. I believed it but when I came here with my doubts I was told he was lying.

I took this to heart and tackled it head on. He panicked and said whatever he thought he should to make me stay even if that meant lying to agree with the majority on here.

I am sorry I have doubts, I am sorry my opinions and thoughts are changeable, I am sorry one day I am confident and wanting to move on and the next in pieces and trying to hang on. Sorry if I am not following how you think I should deal with this!

"Surely if his story only changes when I threaten to leave him then his original story must be the truth? When I say I don't believe it he agrees with almost anything I say so I don't leave."

This stuck out to me. I know it must be tough to admit something like this. I just can't imagine someone changing their story ONLY because you threaten to leave. If someone is not guilty of committing a murder, I'm sorry but I'm not going to change the story because you threaten to leave.

Olwen: "I have always struggled more with the sexual side, maybe I am more like a man there. I have severe body issues, possible body dysmorphia and just the thought of him kissing her, touching her, pushes me to breaking point."

If there is more to the story or if he actually felt different and admitted that he took it because it was offered etc...

And if he truly knows how you feel about your sexual side, if he understands about your body dysmorphia. He may well be terrified. If he is remorseful as you said, he just may not want to push you over the edge. Husbands are theMr Fix It All, sometimes they don't give full disclosure because they don't want to hurt you more. It's a cop out , excuse etc. He may completely feel he's doing this for your own good even though you clearly can't move forward because some things just don't make sense or 100% believable. Please be prepared for more trickle truth or for the same story. Either way you may not be satisfied and there might be more questions. I have body issues myself. Sometimes what I see in the mirror is not reality. I know this and I make a huge effort to see the real me. I often get bigger clothes thinking it will be a little tight only to try it on and it's 2-3 inches loose in the waist! My daughters always tell me their guy friends think I'm a milf, some have flirted with me! I don't know where that issue comes from. My mom is one reason. I have compared myself to MOW physically many times. The truth is this has NOTHING to do with me. It's on him for doing what he did.

I can understand how it can be SOOO difficult to believe that

And accept it. I got to hear more details than I should have. I thought getting as much detail about how he felt, what he thought, what he wanted to do, what he thought when he saw her etc.... Would help me understand, cope and move forward.

I feel that most betrayed spouses will never get 100% of the story. One important thing is what your WS is doing now, his actions. My H has done so much in actions. You are beautiful. Some of the world's beautiful woman don't believe they are.

The gift of R is the most meaningful gift I have ever given my husband. No other gift can compare. The journey is a lot of work, a rollercoaster of emotions. Some days you see sunshine and 2 days later you feel like digging a hole, jumping in and never coming out. Days that you are happy and days that anger consumes you. I thought I had completely lost my mind at one point. Thank God for SI. I was able to read so many stories. I was able to see I'm not alone, I'm not crazy, what I feel and how I feel is normal... In the long run I will be ok. I know this will never leave you.

One day it's not going to ruin my day, week... It's a part of who I am but not who I am soley. I'm not how I was the first month after dday. I'm not where I want to be but I know I am and will get there. I just don't have the date and time of arrival. It's like our house.

It's so much nicer after all the improvements we've done in 10 yrs, but we are never finished improving.

(((Olwen)))

I believe that aside from catching him in a blatant, provable lie about his "story", or someone delivering photos taken after he said it was over, you will likely NEVER know for 100% positive.

Not if you feel it in your gut.

Not if every wise poster on SI agrees.

It sounds like you have (for now - until something makes you think otherwise) decided to believe him.

So, I say get on with the healing. Carefully proceed. Let him know that you are going way out on a limb to trust this story, but that you are willing to proceed if there is IC, and if there is no TT later that disproves his "story".

(Or whatever your conditions are).

It is a hard truth to have to accept that we will never know 100% whether or not we have the real story.

HUGS

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 10:44 AM, November 18th (Monday)]

I insisted that my H wanted the OW more times than I care to remember. That would make sense. How can you have sex with no spark, no desire, no sensuality?

If my H would just admit that he wanted her, I wouldn't get people on SI saying he was lying and I was rugsweeping. SI posters would stop insinuating that I was being deliberately dense and that H was manipulating me.

But H has told me the same story 1,000 times. Now he tells it calmly and patiently and with the insight of 10 months of IC. No flirting, no desire, no romance, no sexual high, no satisfaction. He didn't fancy her--he pitied her, feared her telling his boss or telling me, he thought she was his friend, he felt compelled to rescue her--but he did not desire her.

When I say "you must have wanted it" he says, "I can't tell you that because it's not true." I see how your H could have caved and told you what you wanted/needed to hear.

I recommend:

1. Stop discussing this on SI because most people here have a WS who is messed up in a different way and will not understand.

2. After your H has been in IC for a few weeks, go with him and get his IC's perspective. (Or ask H to give IC permission to meet with you alone.)

What matters is that your H tells you the truth, owns his shit and fixes his damage. People whose WS is an NPD, serial cheater, SA, CL, AM, or just felt entitled to hot sex on the side, may not get where we're coming from.

Be patient. Turn toward your WH.

Edited because my post sounded like my H is somehow "better" than WS's who dig the sex. He's not better, just messed up in a different way.

[This message edited by sailorgirl at 8:17 AM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

Olwen,

Gently here – a person doesn’t lie and make the story worse because someone threatens to leave. And him having the same story all this time? That means nothing. It might be true, it might not, but a liar isn’t going to just change his story for no reason. Once the story is created, it’s created.

As far as him wanting it or not, I don’t know how he would have had sex if he didn’t want it. If a male truly does not want to have sex with a person, and is thinking that when the act is happening, then certain body parts don’t work – which makes sex impossible. He wanted it, on some level, or it wouldn’t have happened, period.

I’m really perplexed why it matters so much. Is him having sex with someone to make them happy any better than him having sex to make himself happy? In the end, he still had sex with someone else, and it wasn’t rape.

I’m sorry – but he finally admitted something to you and you went off the deep end. You told us you were leaving him. You stopped eating. You punched doors. You became very angry and bombarded him with nasty angry texts. I think it’s pretty clear to see why he would go back to the first story.

I’m just not seeing why his thoughts matter so much. If my H had sex with someone because they expected him to, I’d be very angry. I would wonder why her wants beat my wants, and what will he do the next time someone wants him? That’s a weakness that I couldn’t bear.

Just a few thoughts – not saying I’m write ☺

off his pedestal - thank you for your reply.

I have spoken to him again and he is adamant he didn't fancy or want her. he is still working on his letter to me but that much he knows. I asked if he was too scared to tell me the truth and he said he was more scared if he didn't tell me what everyone on here said was true that I would leave him.

You have some very wise words. I know I will never know 100% but this story sits a good 90-95% trued with me. I know he sounds gullible and naïve but he really is.

What's right - you hit the nail on the head. When I get this letter, whatever it says, it's time to move on. Start rebuilding our marriage with this new husband who is already vastly improved, despite what he has done he has since shown me glimpses of the man he can be. Once we have the story written down we can address it and make the focus us again.

I don't think its impossible that he's telling you the truth. I think its hard to give advice without your own experiences shining through and since a lot of us were lied to so much, its prob going to.be why your getting a lot of disbelief in.his story. No one knows your ws like you do so if you think his story is consistent with his personality, then hopefully you are getting the truth. I doubt if any ws really tell the entire story without some things left out but if you feel comfortable with what youve been told, then that's what really matters. Good luck to you .both

The only thing I want to say to you is I truly hope that the rest of your days are exactly what you want and if it is with your WS then let them be the very best.

I see however in all of your writings, or maybe I have missed it, but what if you find out now or down the road that he has not been truthful? What are your consequences? And can you actually follow thru?

Many times a BS is swirling around their WS and desparately trying to get answers and trying to fix things but they have no plan for if you find out your WS has been still lying.

Your strength will come when you can find a balance between wanting your marriage but not settling for being made a fool of...not letting it define who you are if you find out down the road that it has all been a lie, I hope you can find that balance.

Sailor girl - I can't thank you enough. You have made me see not every ws follows the same cookie cutter pattern. I really appreciate you standing up against the crowd.

I think being on here has done my marriage more harm than good.

I knew deep down he was telling the truth but wanted someone to tell me it was possible, I should not have needed that, I know my H. I listened to the nay sayers and as a result nearly walked out on my marriage cos H wouldn't admit to what they said was true. Then when he did so as not to lose me suddenly everyone believed him but I just got more confused cos I could tell when I questioned him it was not the truth

I have decided to leave SI.

Thanks to all who have been open minded and supported me.

[This message edited by olwen at 8:37 AM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

I hope you find the answers you need.

Are you trying to justify his story to yourself or to us?

The things you said that describe his personality, they describe the personality of numerous waywards. He is no different to any other wayward partner and their issues that help them along the way in their affairs.

A lot of waywards find themselves drawn into affairs that were not planned, a lot didn't think anything would happen but wanted to see if it could and when it does they go along with it. Everyone that goes a long with it is a cheater regardless of WHY they went along with it.

If he didn't want or fancy her he would never have been drawn into an EA with her in the first place imo. I also find it hard to believe he could physically perform if he didn't actually want her.

I think that maybe you are trying to justify things to yourself because what you want to believe (that he didn't really want too but was 'forced' too) somehow makes it not as bad. The bottom line is it actually makes very little difference, he did it, he is a cheater like any other.

Oh olwen. Honey,I see you desperately trying to believe him. You have talked yourself into it. I get it. Most of us here do.

You do what you feel you need to do. If you feel you need to believe him,that's ok.

I DO think it's positive that he told you he wanted you to continue to read and post here. It DOES bother me that he is PMing people instead of posting..unless,of course,you have transparency from him and you have access to his PM's here? You said you were upset that he didn't come back and answer any of the questions on his thread..and you wanted him to answer them because they were important questions..but he didn't. And now he is PMing people here and getting advice..which is all well and good..but I think part of you was hoping,like many BS's, that you would have some insight into his thoughts..and you were hoping to try to understand him a little more,based on his posts here on SI..right? The FWS's here on SI cut through the crap..through the excuses..and push new WS's to dig deep. And we, their BS's, want to see how they(our WS) responds to those hard questions. So I understand why you're unhappy that he is PMing instead of posting. Maybe you could make posting a requirement of R?

I agree with the above..if he didn't fancy her..he wouldn't have been drawn into an EA..or the resulting PA.

Olwen...if the truth is that he liked her..or thought at the time he liked her..that he wanted to kiss her because he liked her..that he wanted to touch her *there* because he wanted to touch her there..that he had sex with her because he wanted to have sex with her....then what? If he tells you that he did it all because he liked her and he wanted to..then what?

I think you need to take a break from worrying about him so much. Let him take care of his issues. Let him do his own digging. You need to take care of you. You need to start healing. What have you done for yourself today? Are you taking care of yourself? Are you doing things that make you happy? When was the last time you met a friend for lunch?

You are very focused on him. Stop. Turn that focus on YOU. YOU need to heal. It's a long,painful journey,from dday to a place of peace. Isn't it time you started loving yourself again?

(((((olwen)))))

[This message edited by confused615 at 2:30 PM, November 18th (Monday)]