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Leafan,

Here's how I handled the situation with my fWW: I have full access to her accounts (at least those not restricted by work-required NDAs and the like). She, in turn, has full access to mine.

Yes, I was the betrayed spouse, but so what? I don't have anything to hide from her. I might not volunteer information (for example, she knows I'm on SI but not my handle here. Still, about two minutes digging on my e-mail would find that for her if she wanted to know, and I'm fine with that). When I have an attack of nerves and need to check her e-mail or chat logs, mainly I'm looking at names and for keywords. I'm not obsessively reading each IM or e-mail.

This involved a bit of work to set up. We're both technically savvy, and have presence on a lot of social media because of the nature of our jobs, so we use two-factor authentication on most sites that allow it. That means that when I need to check her e-mail I need to get a secondary password from an app on her phone (and vice versa if she wants to check mine). Again, I'm fine with that. It's the security of availability I need (similar to what you describe), not information-gathering for proof of an affair or so on.

So maybe that's an approach you could try. Say "Your recent mention that you're still emotionally invested in that guy's been triggering me like crazy this week. I really feel like I need to see your e-mail and chat logs, but I also feel it's only fair that I give you the same transparency I'm asking."

It might not work, but it's worth a shot.

Honestly I feel that full access is overrated. If a WS wants to cheat, they will and who wants to be a 'guard' for the rest of their life?

Having said that though, as I see it, all you've done is ask for your WW to help in re establishing trust. If the act of making the accounts available to you helps to build trust, then that's what she should be doing.

By the same token if you thought having her read from the dictionary 3 times a week would help you to re establish trust, she should be willing to do it.

Even if whatever action you ask of her makes no sense to her, if it doesn't harm her in any way and you say it will help make you feel better why wouldn't she be willing to do it?

By doing what it is that you need she is saying I am willing to help you. I want to make myself safe for you, to make R possible.

Hello Leafan, you heard from me quite a bit yesterday on General where, like today you got some excellent guidance. I was going to refrain from posting bc again, I think you have received great advice but I will mention two things, one mentioned, the other not in the way I wish too.

1) No one is saying your wife should not have friends. She needs friends. But these need to be friends of the marriage. I used to call my bff and bad-mouth my H. By the time he got home, I didn't want to talk to him. He, meanwhile was talking to the AP. Both of us were lost.

2) You noted your wife is on SI. May I ask why? I mean....if she wants to help you as you noted the other day, then she would be taking action, showing remorse, and not objecting to your requests. She would be reading/getting this advice from the WS forum.

What * other * reason would someone have to be on SI other then to seek support, counsel and find the best possible way to repair and rebuild?

LA

I am going to challenge you one last time to look at this and your motivations. I suspect you aren't ready to hear this, but here goes.

Why do keep saying we've told you she cannot have friends? Why are you fixating on that? Nobody said that. What I personally said was it's inappropriate to vent about you and her marriage to her friends. Is that such a foreign concept? And certainly it is not ok to to use the need to do so as a defense of providing you the transparency and accountability you deserve. Why do you resist that? Is it because you know she will not comply?

I know it must be hard to hear 20 or so people telling you that your recovery may be false. It is scary. But we have all been there. You asked for our opinions based on our collective experiences and knowledge. We have seen it a thousand times if not more a wayward's excuses to not provide transparency. And it is never good, my friend.

After an affair things change. The rules change. If both partners don't do some major internal work, the recovery will fail. Why do you continue to allow her to dictate the terms of your recovery? I submit that it isn't healthy.

Reconciling isn't for wimps. We have all had to do some pretty tough things to get here. We understand. Nobody thinks ill of your wife. We are rooting for your success! Don't sell yourself short. Ensure your wife deserves you. Accept nothing less than extreme measures on her part.

There is a difference between not having friends and not having boundaries. Unfortunately people with poor boundaries have a hard time understanding that. That's my experience anyway, as someone who had terrible boundaries and still works on recognizing that and improving them. After dday, developing solid boundaries became a major focus for both of us, when previously, I didn't know what a boundary was nor did I care and it's pretty obvious my husband didn't either.

Good luck on this journey Leafsfan.

[This message edited by DixieD at 5:00 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

Man this is a tough day !!! Wow.

2) You noted your wife is on SI. May I ask why? I mean....if she wants to help you as you noted the other day, then she would be taking action, showing remorse, and not objecting to your requests. She would be reading/getting this advice from the WS forum.

She is here as I am seeking advice, reading others posts. Maybe she is not as active as I have been from time to time. But she is here. Posting questions. Seeking advice. Unfortunately she feels like she gets attacked here. I know a lot of you are a 2x4 type. I respect that. I read every post, try to see where that person is coming from.

The whole "not having friends" came from someone or a few people saying that she should not have friends that are not friends of the M

Maybe I misinterpreted that, took it as she should not have friends of her own.

Anyways. Thanks for all your advice I do appreciated all of it. Even if I get defensive and don't agree.

Leaf, I was just perusing the WS forum. I often read this forum bc it is incredibly enlightening.

You wrote yesterday that your wife thinks that "she and her former AP could just be friends now". Maybe that did not work in the past but hey, after three years she believes it could work now by golly! Really? Really?

I wonder if she got their (WS forum) opinion on that little gem. Maybe she is getting whacked over there bc they sense she is not being totally honest with you and with them.

You don't have to like or agree with any of this. We will still be here tomorrow and take on another question. I am going out on a limb and - gently - say that you are still in the denial stage of this process (Co-Dependant No More by Melody Beattie). Read as much as you can. Empower yourself with knowledge on this subject.

I wish you well, Leafan. I really do.

[This message edited by LA44 at 5:48 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

As far as I have always understood, "friends of the M" means that they're people that will support your marriage. As opposed to "friends of the A" who are people who knew about one partner's affair and either implicitly or explicitly supported it.

As far as I have always understood, "friends of the M" means that they're people that will support your marriage. As opposed to "friends of the A" who are people who knew about one partner's affair and either implicitly or explicitly supported it.

Thank you for pointing that out. I was taking it totally the wrong way. I was thinking friends of the M would mean our mutual friends

JMO....

The reason for access to her accounts is for verification of NC with AP....she needs to be transparent....her unwillingness for that "openness" is a HUGE RED flag, bro...transparency in my case was a NON NEGOCIABLE requirement for R to happen.

I verified everything....dude...I mean EVERYTHING...

Everytime I looked at cell phone, cell phone bills, emails, GPS, call logs..etc..and FOUND NOTHING.....it allowed the trust level go up a bit. The wall of trust gets rebuilt one brick at a time - over time...your wife's lack of "agreeing to transparency" is not good....im sorry.

I told my FWW that transparency would happen - or R was off the table....it cannot happen with secrets...especially after her A..

Good luck...

Bufffalo

For me, full transparency was a boundary issue. One I was willing to enforce.

Bigger queston is not what WE all think about full transparency, but rather, what is the consequence that YOU have decided will result when she doesn't comply?

Don't negotiate with terrorists

That's a good question right there. ^^^^

This has been one of the harder days so far. I'm completely spinning out right now. Hopefully the wife and I can sit down tonight after the kids are in bed and talk this through. But I really don't know how she will be able to convince me that she hasn't deleted or cleaned shit up.

We (as husbands) want to believe so badly. We want her to convince us. It just sucks whe the truth of the matter is parked right in front of our faces.

Just be aware, when you have your conversation, she has read everything that has been said to you. She will use it against you, she will talk about how bad this site is and how we all want you to fail. Don't buy that crap. I have been here for 2 years. Fighting and being supported by the members on here. Everyone wants your marriage to succeed. IMO, The only person on these boards who isn't supporting your marriage right now....is your wife.

[This message edited by SuperDuperWonderboy at 6:52 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

My biggest problem is handling my anger. I often loose my shit and say stupid things. I honestly understand her hesitation to open up. But the reason we are here is because she willingly came clean. I never caught her. Even this latest thing she came to me and opened up.

But it is what it is. I can't change it. Just hope we can have a civil chat. Without my shit being lost. Lol

I'm pressed for time, alas, so I haven't read the whole thread, but ...

Oops, I really need to read this whole thread before commenting.

Just remember that healing is one thing. Only you can heal you, and you can heal even if she's still in her A, or not transparent, or dishonest.... Only your W can heal herself.

R is quite another matter. That takes both of you, and the WS must be remorseful - transparent, honest, NC, and a whole lot more, but the BS has responsibilities, too.

[This message edited by sisoon at 8:32 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

Leafsfan-I just read through all 4 pages and don't have much to add.

I did want to say something about your last comment. I have never been a person who loses their temper but my rage at the injustice of this all simmers beneath the surface at all times. It comes out when I least expect it and takes a lot of control not to "lose it" on my WH. I think both of you need to learn how to communicate better (my WH and I do too). The posts about emotional intimacy really hit home to me. Anything I say to my friends, I should be able to say to my WH.

I wish you all the best.

It's a huge betrayal and injustice. If you're not seriously pissed off, something is wrong. Allow yourself to be pissed, and to express your anger. There are consequences to really bad behavior, and this is one of them.

There is no privacy in my marriage. What would be the purpose?

I question other's need to have it. Why?

Well, I'm a BS and I appreciate having some privacy. We've been married for 18 years and are closer than ever. But if I really lost all my privacy, I would be extremely unhappy. By this, I mean that not only would he have access to everything I read or write or say to anyone, but he would also act on that and actually read what I write to others, on a regular basis. It would mean he would be reading what I'm writing right now. He doesn't even know I post on SI and I consider it none of his business. People can say what they want but I don't cheat on my H and I appreciate some privacy, and did nothing that should mean I should give it up.

I will never agree that I owe him the same transparency that he owes me.

But not to get too far off the point, I think that a WS who is unwilling to do whatever it takes, including give up privacy, is usually not all that remorseful. And remorse is the one thing above all else IMO, or at least for me, that is the key ingredient for R.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 7:11 AM, November 28th (Thursday)]

as a WS it just makes me feel better that my life is an open book.

No privacy issues at all... I know people are different but after an affair, all bets are off - there will be lots of things that are uncomfortable for the WS AND the BS.

I guess recovery is different for each of us. I think it's time I accept my failures as a husband. Time I realize that since the A.... Fuck even during and before the A... The majority if problems start with my lack of communication.