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Gently, gently, it sounds to me that she is still in the A - if not physically, then certainly emotionally. She does not want to stop seeing him - which she would want, if she were truly 'done' and remorseful. She is still in the fog, not remorseful, not grasping what her being in contact with OM is doing to you. She is more concerned with herself and her own feelings than in re-establishing trust with you.

'Affair Brain' makes people say stupid, stupid, stupid things. My H and I have been married 18 years. I know that he loves me, has always loved me. He went completely off the rails in the A - it colored his feelings and thoughts about our whole marriage. After he confessed the A to me, and we began telling each other the truth about everything going back to before we were even married - honest feelings - I asked him if he had felt trapped into marrying me. He knew how much I loved him, he wasn't really ready, but he was afraid to break my heart. That's basically what he said. I was devastated. And I knew that it was completely untrue. He waited for me for two years, while I finished university on the other side of the country. There was no trap - he worked hard to keep me during that time. A few weeks later, once he was fully out of the fog, he said to me, "I married you because I loved you - that's the truth".

Your WW may say and feel things now that she would never have meant before the A - and would feel dreadful for saying or ashamed of thinking when she was out of the fog.

That's just my opinion. I'm so sorry for your pain. You do not deserve it at all.

Feeling I am right there with you. I really can't give too much advise because I am asking the exact same questions you are. What I can offer are my coping skills. It is hurtful what they say when they are deflecting and make no mistake it is manipulation. Part of what I always did was feed into it. I would cry, beg, show how hurt I was. Or I would sulk and retreat. I am learning that my WH wins in his manipulation when I do either of these he gets to deflect. His intention weather unconscious or not are to take the spotlight off of his behaviors. I am learning to control my reactions and my fear. Don't get me wrong, this is hard because hurt is hurt. When someone you love shows they can act so heartless it can make you crazy and sad. What I do is remember he is manipulating and this won't work any longer.

I get smart instead of emotional. One of my tricks, to calm my emotions are that I look for the color red. Red is a color that I use that to me means vibrant, bold, not afraid, strong. When I look at it I am shocked back to what the color represents and I am reminded who I am and what I'm worth. Just taking a few seconds to stare, calm myself and breath makes me less reactive. It shows him that this doesn't work any longer and my self worth is not defined by his opinion of me. I define me and I define what I want and who I am.

I had used 180 and that helped me separate and detach. Now I feel strong enough to be assertive (not demanding- not needy- not hurting ). Assertive for me looks like the color red, bold and strong. I remind him calmly that I don't need him, I want him as a loving respectful partner and will love and respect him. If he can't act kind and respectful then I am fully prepared for D. I also show him I can hear him and respect him. I now say the same things but with less emotion and less neediness. He tends to hear me instead of reacting to me. It's hard for both of us to change. I am changing, the question remains can he.

I'm so sorry, Feeling. I think she's still in the A.

When she says, "Your feelings aren't the only ones that matter." I think she means, "Stop making me feel guilty! Stop being so needy! I just want you to be a dependable H while I explore my relationship with OM. And don't you know that it's really hard to continue the A with you bothering me and making me feel all blamed?"

When she says, "You don't listen to me." She means, "How can I blame my cheating on you?"

Not remorseful.

She does not deserve you.

I would 180, and tell her she has to make an appointment for IC for her adultery and FOO issues by Friday or you will file for divorce. I would also set a deadline for her to quit her job and go NC with OM. If money is not a big issue, I'd make that deadline ASAP (give notice this week). She doesn't give notice, you file.

I am going to jump past the part about her potentially continuing in the affair.

If anybody told me "I'm with you because you were there" whether it was part of affair talk or simply a relationship issue, they would be out, out, OUT! I will be loved not "Oh, you will do for now."

She does not deserve you.

She hugged me and said that she's also with me because she thinks I'm intelligent, ambitious, good looking and because I love her.

That says it all right there. No I love YOU, just what you represent as her elbow candy. She doesn't want to talk about how her words hurt you. She doesn't care how you feel and she says exactly what is on her mind. Believe her. Also she thinks sex and her magic vagina will blot out her hurtful words. Unfortunately words can't be taken back and the damage is already done. Sex won't fix her attitude, sense of entitlement, nor her lack of empathy.

I am sorry for you pain, but given what you have written, as long as you are with her more is on the way.

[This message edited by momentintime at 2:35 PM, December 2nd (Monday)]

What she said easily falls on the side of emotional abuse. These "outburst," are cruel and intend to express anger in way that hurts you. She intends to hurt you. Read that aloud again. Abuse tends to follow a pattern. Abuse, half hearted apology that blames the victim, repeat. Genders are irrelevant when it comes to abuse. There is the abuser and the victim. It does not make you weak and you most certainly do not deserve it. This is about your W and her issues. If she does not stop you need to protect yourself. That means up to and including leaving her for good. The last part is especially if she does not seek help for her abusive behaviors.

If you think there is a chance things can get better for you. You need to force a yes or no decision to see where she really stands. Based on what you have said, it does not sound like she really cares all that much about you or your feelings. If she does, IC and MC are important.

180. Keep it about finances/kids (if you have any). That is it. You need to keep the focus on yourself. No dinner dates, visiting friends, etc. Why would you continue to do those things with her if that is the outcome ? To help her hide her dark secret ? That is not half the woman in private that she pretends to be while other people are around ?

The worse outcome here is not leaving your M. The worst outcome here is looking back on your life and regretting not taking control back when you had the chance. Realizing that you spent your life with someone who did not deserve you. There is a great guy in there that someone will appreciate, take care of and protect.

I know this sounds a lot like D your W. I am not saying that. That is up to you. Just take a look at what this continued cycle is doing to you.

If you take anything from this, my point is you have options. It is about time to look at all your options and decide what would make you the happiest ? Then chase that happiness like a dog does a squirrel.

PS- I am an abuse survivor so sometimes I get a little "extra" fired up when I read things like this, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

I actually think the A is over because OM's girlfriend is now pregnant. Apparently he told my WW that he didn't want to see her anymore -- that was the second time she broke NC.

She seems to want to stay at her job because it's a good job that she worked hard to get, but it's a job that brings me anxiety every day. I used to be her biggest fan...

She did have her IC appointment today and called me afterwards to say that she recognizes she said some really hurtful things to me over the weekend. I thanked her for recognizing that.

That's the cycle we're in. I'm not seeing any action on her part when it comes to the big thing -- working with the OM. I'm told by our MC that her angry outbursts come out of a place of shame for her actions. The problem is, after nine months of angry outbursts following a nine-month A, it's wearing me down. The MC says ultimatums don't help. I would love to set an ultimatum as far as continuing working with the OM.

in a way your MC is right. ultimatums will not work to change her behavior. that has to come from within her.

the question is, where are your lines in the sand, how much are you willing to tolerate? state them with conviction and then follow through.

strength

Gently, gently, it sounds to me that she is still in the A - if not physically, then certainly emotionally.

^^^^THIS! I know you wrote you think the A is over but in your WW's mind it's not over. This is NOT a 2X4. What your WW si doing is almost textbook WS behavior. She is giving you the slow push to make you file for D because she doesn't have the courage to do so. She probable isn't even aware she's doing it but that's what she is doing. Unremorseful WS's that won't leave but won't change only leave you with one option and they ratchet up the alienation and emotional barrages until you have no choice but to file.

The A may or may not be physically over but she is still VERY FOGGY and still mentally in the A. My STBXWW had a 3yr LTA with a coworker. She also refused to quit and gave plenty of reasons why she couldn't leave. The things you described in you post are things an unremorseful person does. Your WW still doesn't get it. You can't R by yourself and right now you are the only one driving that bus and your WW is letting air out of the tires, putting bananas in the tail pipe and everything else she can think of to further sabotage the M so she doesn't have to face what she did or own up to the fact that she is either still in the A or doesn't have the courage to actually file for D herself. If you haven't heard the "I need space speech" from her yet, it's coming. That's usually prefaced or followed by the "I feel smothered speech". This is all unremorseful WW code for "I want to leave but I don't know how and I get to see OM everyday at work and can't truly let go emotionally even though I know I should so I will blame my BH for my sad feelings and punish him more because it's easier to blame him than own up to the poor decisions I have made."

My advice go hard 180 asap and go see a L to understand your rights. You aren't in R and having been in the situation you are describing she is bascially slowly trying to force you to file. Other things you may have heard or may hear soon are she isn't attracted to you, doesn't think she will have sex with you, you already got the rewriting of her feelings for you, your a great provider or homemaker or whatever but she needs more, the spark or that special something is missing. You may hear all of these or soem variation and they arent' true but she is slowly trying to erase you from existence as she starts to feel like things would be better if you weren't around. It's her way of not having to deal with the guilt. She likely has no coping skills other than blaming you because she can't face herself and eventually she's likely going to hand you another Dday because she hasn't changed a thing about herself.

I could be wrong but if any of what I said or the other posters go ahead 180 and file because your WW isn't remorseful at all. I didnt' say any fo this to be mean or get you down. I was in yrou very situation and it's what I needed to hear then even if I couldn't face it at the time. I could be wrong about how things will go down but your WW is unremorseful so be careful and take care of yourself. I wish you the best.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 3:37 PM, December 2nd (Monday)]

I heard the "you're smothering me" and "I need space" speeches right after D-Day when our MC suggested that she give me her passwords (she eventually did).

Here's where I'm stuck. There's so much potential here, but so far it's potential unrealized. My IC says unrealized potential is just that. I need to go on more than just potential.

My WW and I pretty much watched each other grow up and enjoyed a lot of success together. It seems stupid to end it like this. On the other hand, her actions are not kind and they seem abusive. I keep asking myself how she doesn't realize it.

WW called me at work to say she's sorry for the weekend. I thanked her and immediately she asked me if I could drive her to pick up her bike. She got a flat tire on the way to IC.

We got home and I received a lot more criticism. Things like wanting to fix the bedsheets because she was already comfortable. Well, my side of the bed was a mess, I volunteered to do it and it took seconds.

This is really hard. I find that when I first started posting here I made all sorts of excuses for WW -- maybe an attempt to understand her? Maybe an attempt to avoid seeing the truth? Now I feel that I don't have anything positive to post about her and she can't be that bad because I used to be happy. Grrrrrr.

I am very, very sorry.

It is hard to accept that someone we love with all of our being does not love us.

It is probably more than just this affair. If she changes jobs, leaves OM, etc. it is probably going to happen again as she is still "looking for Mr. Right". And she's already found him in you.

Quick update: I booked an emergency MC session today. It was unsatisfying but helpful. The downward spiral has stopped.

I'm being told WW is tormented by shame and taking it out on me. I'm being asked to make a greater effort to take in her efforts. I said once more that it's very difficult to do that and be vulnerable again when she continues to work with OM and won't give me a timeline for moving on. We are at an impasse and it feels like s#it.

I scored tickets to the hockey game tonight and invited WW in an attempt to distract ourselves. It helped until she asked me -- innocently - if I had heard about the woman who won the lottery after losing her ticket. She opened her door and two strangers from the lotto company were there to tell her she won. WW said she joked at work - all day - that if strangers knock on your door you should always let them in. That triggered the hell out of me because she was bringing OM home and he was/is pretty much a stranger. She caught on to my reaction and apologized.

I hate feeling so sensitive. I really need her to work somewhere else...

Your MC is full of shit.

Your WW telling you that she "needs kindness too" is definitely not her *shame* talking. And btw...if your WW were so ashamed, she would have quit her job by now......OR she can stay there, feel *ashamed* while talking and joking with her co-workers about letting strangers into the house -- and come home and be an insensitive dolt to you? How is THAT fair to you?

That's insanity. I'm not getting one single whiff of *shame* from your WW's behavior.

Wow, what does she want you to do with that information she so callously said to you? Neithan said it best, now you see it for what it and she is, what the marriage means to her. You have to examine her words and what they mean for you and your future.

I am in the same predicament, my WW still works with/for OM. Not direct supervision, and sometimes won't see or hear from him for over a week, sometimes more. My WW reports any and all contact, including emails. Does your wife do that? Do you have access to the correspondence?

After I discovered the A, my WW got another phone and continued for another month before I found out about the phone. She acted just like your WW during that month. Still distant but would occasionally try. I knew she was still talking to OM. Might be your WW is still emotionally involved. If they both want to, they will find a way!

You need to keep both eyes open my friend, something is not quite right there. I hope it's not that your wife doesn't love you and is only a matter of convenience for her.

My WW is also ashamed. Tells me she is and treats me great. Shame is realized when they realize they did wrong and are remorseful, not lash out in anger to further hurt their BS!

Your MC sucks and is enabling her bad behavior.

As far as I know I have full access to WW's passwords, phone records, etc. I haven't checked in months because with the two of them working together they can just talk face-to-face, which WW assures me isn't happening.

We woke up today and WW acted all morning like all is well. It's bizarre. She then asked if I wanted to make plans for a February vacation.

Yes, no, I don't know? I said that I needed time to recover from the last few days. I didn't tell her that I'm feeling distant. I am.

I'm also anxious because she has a major, yearly public work event on Friday morning. I have never missed it and I intend to attend this year, too.

I saw the OM at a different event at her work earlier this year and when he saw me he ran -- literally ran -- to a door that you need a passcard to open. What a coward. I have no interest in him, only in moving my family away from him.

I'm rambling. Today is a better day and I'm more focused at work.