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Wronged,

Your dday is so close that I think now is the worst time to be trying to make a decision like this. Reading your post shows how your thoughts and feelings are all over the place.

You.do.not.have.to.decide.anything.right.now.

'I've offered you a chance to say none of that matters, I'll do anything but you've rejected me again', but I know that if I do this, it means I was playing a game all along (if that makes sense).

First of all this tells me that you do want her. I think you're saying you want D because you're convinced it will save you pain if you do it now by taking the initiative. I don't think you were trying to play a game. You're expecting consistency from yourself at the worst possible time in your life.

You're afraid of getting hurt again. I know I personally would be very wary of pursuing A unless I felt deeply that my WW wanted R. Dday is bad enough. It's even worse pain to take that risk, open your heart again and have your SO give up. If that's what you're afraid then give both of you some time.

I think you're putting too many expectations on your WW and yourself.

I think you're trying decisions based on scenarios of what you're sure is going to happen, except you can't be sure what's going to happen.

Okay Brandon, thanks for that, it's good to get another perspective and that's appreciated.

I'm sort of caught between reading on here 'don't limbo too long, decide what you're going to do asap' and 'don't rush into anything' (and, I think, all things considered, I've been keeping a fairly good lid on things!). Also, timescale was partly dictated by her fertility as she will be 38 soon (plus, not to mention, what happened last week, lest we forget!).

Anyway, went to the gym and it felt good to do some cardio with loud music, though when I came out, had a text saying she was going to stick to the original plan and come back tomorrow, we should talk then, call if you want in meantime, love you, etc. I may have been channeling you Brandon (I read your message before I left), but I was all calm and said that I was fine and so was the plan, though I think in the interests of space, she should move into our friend's who lives nearby and I'll meet her at a pub or somewhere else neutral for a drink. She said fine and she'll let me know when she's back to pick up stuff; I said fine though it's my intention not to be hear when she is.

When I got back from the gym, a dog was taking a massive dump right outside our house, which felt vaguely appropriate, though the owner was about to clear it up, which might be stretching the metaphor a little too far.

Survival mode has kicked in and have made plans to meet a friend to watch football and for beers this evening, then possibly comedy club.

Other friend wants to meet tomorrow afternoon for a drink and I've said yes. I'll meet him and then I'll pass where my wife's going to be on way back, so can meet her then. Have known the friend I'm meeting for 20 years and, though we're not quite as close as we were, he was an usher at my wedding so am considering spilling the beans to him.

yearsofpain25 - Unbelievably Joy Division have come on the radio again literally as I'm typing this (must find a new station to listen to!), though as it's 'She's Lost Control' (and I don't have epilepsy), it doesn't feel quite as significant this time.

Cheers!

[This message edited by TheWrongedMan at 5:31 AM, January 18th (Saturday)]

When I read your story I get something a little different then many of the others.

What your wife did was horrible, yet she couldn't keep it from you for even a day. That counts for something, its a solid base to rebuild on.

What I think is, it was a cry for help. Maybe the ejaculation issue(I believe your way of not having children) had left her feeling unwanted maybe abit unloved. Again no excuse. We as men often fail our women when it comes to HEARING what they tell us, then when something happens if it be infidelity or the walk out, it comes as a big shock when it really shouldn't have.

She wanted a baby, not wanted but NEEDED and in her mind you were unwilling to help. Again not an excuse for what she did but something to consider.

Like you, my wife cheated, abit different. She had a two week phuck-a-ton with some random guy she didn't even know his last name. She couldn't hold her guilt and remorse. She didn't come right out and tell me, but she made it obvious that something had happened.

I divorced her spent some time finding myself, remarried and started a family. I no longer want her, yet I truly regret not having the balls to forgive her and make an honest effort to R.

Take the weekend to clear your head, ask her to stay and make an honest effort. Stop playing the emotional games, if you want her make it happen. Infidelity while never something you want, can be the catalyst to a better marriage. Learn and understand where you failed in the marriage and fix it (again her cheating not your fault), positive on your part will bring positive on her part.

If it works great, if not? No regrets, right?

[This message edited by 2yrsblind at 7:25 AM, January 19th (Sunday)]

Also, the night before she said to me that it's like we both want to end it, but we're both scared to and we're trying to get the other do it. I become convinced that this what she is doing.

Help me understand what she is saying here. Is she saying that, aside from her infidelity, she might want to end it? Her desire to maybe end it predated her ONS? If so, was her ONS not just a drunken, sexually-charged event, but instead, something more akin to a "what the hell, it's over anyway....I might as well take advantage of this "open goal" to save sex tonight"-encouraged by the alcohol?

In any case, I would be very concerned that she said this.

I agree with Brandon that it does seem like you want her. That offer of R you made, which she may or may not have passed on, indicates that.

No need to worry about being in limbo too long, at this point. It's still only been a week or two.

I might be a little bit confused about where things stand right now. what is it that she is deciding on right now? Is the expectation that she will,return on Sunday with some type of decision about something?

Thanks 2yrsblind, great to hear from somewhere who has been there.

Re getting back together, still down to drunkenness, though she seems to think now that what she did was a symptom of the fact that she was more unhappy than she realised before (might have to 'blame' the counsellor for that one!). Also, whether we can work forward re baby and sex issues. Plus she is now trying to tell me that she was pro reconciliation but is less sure after I lost my sh1t yesterday (which I have told her in no uncertain terms that I think I was entitled to do once and she apologised).

Expectation is, I suppose, that she will come back and we will meet and discuss things. I still want her to move out for a bit though while we work it through.

Final piece of the jigsaw for you guys: we moved to London four years ago because of my work (it's media work so I have to work in the capital - I'm sure you've all recognised my hilarious writing style and near flawless punctuation already). Anyway, she misses her/our friends a lot and blamed me occasionally for about two years, but got over it (largely) when we bought the bigger house. She also got a much better job on a pretty much 50% pay rise (v good money) but it has been tough as it mainly involved sacking people, which she didn't sign up for, and her boss was a bit crazy.

Anyway, she ended up signing off with stress (never happened before) and was off for two months. At the time, the counsellor (who she went back to the other day) said she wasn't sure how much of it was down to work and how much baby (this was in second half of 2013 - I'm not complaining that this was massively tough for me BTW as it wasn't - she wasn't shot away or anything). This also resulted in a change of workplace for two days a week where she started working with the guy she slept with.

Anyway, where that becomes relevant here is that she has told me that she doesn't like the fact that I'm so 'available' now. I've always doted over her (affection, cooking, surprises, etc) but when we lived in our old city, I had a much bigger circle of close friends and I used to play football every Thurs, Sat and Sun. So sometimes I might go out at 1pm on Sat to play football and not come back until 4am, and then get up and go back out at 9am on Sun (I was fitter then!). She has said that she misses having to chase me around and she thinks I am now too dependent on her.

To be honest, we're both 37 now and, as much as I miss our friends, I thought it was natural that we slowed down our social life a bit and I also thought that if I behaved like that now that we're a bit more isolated, she would be seriously p1ssed off! (Now we know what women really want, eh? Not nice guys!)

Anyway, this is all putting me in a bit of a predicament now, as is an extra impediment (on top of the obvious!) to my general deep down instinct which is to 'be nice' to her. Anyway, long story short, that's why I'm going to kicking her out tomorrow.

Thought that was going to be a short point - got there in the end!

[This message edited by TheWrongedMan at 8:07 AM, January 18th (Saturday)]

It almost looks as if your wife was trying to end your marriage with that ONS, considering all the facts she gave you about using no protection and enjoying it. As you said, she wants you to deliver the coup de grace.

Why?

1] I think she believes that your failure to finish inside of her is why she has not conceived. Not necessarily true of course, it could be her age, but we are concerned with what she believes.

2] She desperately want a child.

3] You cannot assure her that you will finish inside of in the future; therefore she is not likely to conceive from her POV.

4] She definitely seems to be goading you to announce a separation.

If you separate with a view to divorcing, is it possible she will try and pregnant with another guy; maybe the one from a few days ago? [She has already tried once!], hence the suggestion of time apart, particularly the weekends. If she succeeds then she has her baby and maybe a potential father to live with. Maybe you underestimate just how important it is to her to get pregnant and how ruthless she can be to achieve that end..

If she doesn't succeed then maybe she can reconcile with you, since it must be her fertility that is questionable. In that case she will hope you don't find out about copious sex with the other guys.

I just have this feeling that the ONS was a tacit announcement from her ending your marriage; just think of the way she immediately told you with all the hurtful details. The next step I believe is to get pregnant with OM[s] and you are playing into her hands by throwing her out of the house. Now to find a suitable father; I don't believe she is fazed by the possibility of being a single mother. Not till later anyway. If you think she is going to be sitting at her friends house doing the crossword and watching television, you are in for a shock.

If you want to reconcile you will have to prove you can finish inside her or I believe the marriage is over; at least as far as she is concerned. She is seeing her dream of a mother slowly dying and the blame is placed right on you.

I also think that having a baby is a big deal. I don't think you can overstate this. For many people, not just women, having a child and wanting to have a family is a fundamental part of who they are.

I don't think you not being able to come in her is the issue. You can get pregnant other ways. I think the issue is that you don't really want a child. Whether she knows it or not, this may be a dealbreaker for her.

I know in my case, that if I met a woman and she didn't want to have children ever, it would be a dealbreaker for me. I always wanted a family. It wouldn't matter how much I loved the woman. I wanted children. Now... if she wanted to have children but couldn't, I wouldn't divorce her or dump her. That would be beyond her control.

But.... if a woman simply refused to have children because she didn't want them, I would assume that ultimately we wanted different things in life.

Your wife is 37. She may think she only has a few more years left to have a child.

Believe it or not, I think this is the elephant in the room, not the one night stand.

she said to me that it's like we both want to end it, but we're both scared to and we're trying to get the other do it.

Be very wary of a WS who *assumes* what you are thinking and speaks *for* you......

Justs a quick comment.

I think a wife would be very troubled by a husband who couldn't come in her. It basically says that she is not exciting enough to get her man to ejaculate. He can get off himself but she isn't desirable enough to make him orgasm. Kind of insulting.

She doesn't want to conceive her child with a turkey baster, disposable syringe, or in a doctors office. Wronged, you have completely underestimated the problem you have and the effect on your marriage. Wake up before its too late. Your wife is really leaving you and I think you are about to be hit with a ton of bricks. You are not really in control of this situation.

Wronged, you have completely underestimated the problem you have and the effect on your marriage. Wake up before its too late. Your wife is really leaving you and I think you are about to be hit with a ton of bricks. You are not really in control of this situation.

i think there is some truth to that. I'm not sure I agree with the ejaculation part, but you may be right. I'm obviously not a woman. but I think if that was really the case, why would she stay with him so long? It's certainly not new. However, that, as well as the wanting a child, is the issue. She may well be on her way out unless something happens to change the equation. Normally, after a ONS and a confession, a WW will try hard to save the marriage. She seems to be finding a way for him to agree that it's time to split. At least based on how I read what he wrote.

Even if she is leaving you, and her desire for a child was greater than you understood, and the sex you and she had was a bigger problem than you understood, she still chose to act out by sleeping with another man. Reminder -- you share none of the responsibility for her ONS. (....just so this doesn't get lost in the fray)

With that said, the non-infidelity related marital issues do exist and would probably be hard for her not to verbalize to you at a time when she is searching for why she acted out in this way. They don't justify what she did, but they do need to be addressed for her to be happy. She does need to get to the real "why", but it might take more than a week for her to do that.

TWM, I was connecting through Heathrow earlier this morning and put on Unknown Pleasures thinking about you. I had it cranked. Of course She's Lost Control was on there. We must have been on the same brain wavelength or something.

And she turned around and took me by the hand

And said I've lost control again.

And how I'll never know just why or understand

She said I've lost control again.

Heavy! We need to lighten up your play selection a bit. How about Bauhaus or Cure from the early 80's. Sheesh!!

I love London. My 2nd favorite city next to Edinburgh. I just wish London wasn't so damn expensive.

Anyway, just wanted to check in with you real quick. You are a much stronger man and calmer man than I would be. Keep giving us updates. We want to make sure you are ok.

1] I think she believes that your failure to finish inside of her is why she has not conceived. Not necessarily true of course, it could be her age, but we are concerned with what she believes.

Is the reason not because he doesn't want to, but physically cant - not wont. I don't like the word 'failure' I am quite sure that if he could, he would want to ...

There are other means of getting the sperm to the egg! Plenty of couples go thru the same things. It doesn't even have to involve medical procedures ... turkey baster springs to mind, legs up and lay there for 15 mins!!!! Failure does not come into it!

If you separate with a view to divorcing, is it possible she will try and pregnant with another guy; maybe the one from a few days ago? [She has already tried once!]

Do u honestly believe she slept with this guy, to get pregnant!!!!! If that's the case why didn't she shut her mouth and pretend that it was the H baby (assuming what u believe she set out to do, happened!) then why tell him the following morning!! And, even if this is the case, if they do get divorced, it will have nothing to do with him who she sleeps with, she can then do as she pleases, what's the point of that quote??!!!

In that case she will hope you don't find out about copious sex with the other guys.

Other guys??? There were other guys????? Did I miss something?????

If you want to reconcile you will have to prove you can finish inside her or I believe the marriage is over;

That is ridiculous!!!!!!!! Im sorry, but IF (and I state IF in capital letters) she is that type of person to do that, I for one wouldn't dream of going through 'R' with her. I would want her to 'R' with me because SHE LOVES ME .... not because she wants a baby and is willing to sleep with any tom dick or harry!!!

She KNEW what she was getting into when she married him. She knew he would NEVER be able to climax inside her! She accepted him .... and now your saying if he cant do what he hasn't been physically able to do EVER... she is off! Then in my eyes, im sorry but she isn't worth it!

I don't know why Wronged cant climax inside his wife, or any other woman. its pretty obvious to any man reading this, if he could - HE WOULD!!! Im so annoyed with some of the replies in here saying she wants to leave because of his failure to climax inside her. My H cant climax inside me, ive known that since the day I met him, he cant climax inside me and he cant penetrate me ... he gets off by himself and I help to get him off ... its not because he doesn't fancy me, or doesn't desire me or prefers to get off himself .... he would LOVE to be able to penetrate me and climax inside me, and im pretty dam sure Wronged would love to aswell!!

IMHO that has no bearing on his wife having a ONS, and as for the earlier quote from her IC, 'a woman needs to have her cup filled' I nearly spat my good ole English tea at the screen upon hearing that! What is this world coming to!!!!

he would LOVE to be able to penetrate me and climax inside me, and im pretty dam sure Wronged would love to aswell!!

Ok, that came out all wrong .... lol! I meant wronged would love to be able to with his wife, not me! Just clearing that up!

Im so annoyed with some of the replies in here saying she wants to leave because of his failure to climax inside her. My H cant climax inside me, ive known that since the day I met him,

I agree. Absolutes are annoying. But your reasoning is slightly flawed based on what Wronged has stated regarding his 'climaxing' issues.

She KNEW what she was getting into when she married him. She knew he would NEVER be able to climax inside her!

This^^^ is incorrect.

He said that~

yes 100%. She has a massive issue with the fact that I can't climax inside her (I never have through penetration with anyone bar once with my wife...

So he was able to climax through penetration with his wife, albeit once. I hate to be a stickler but your situation is different from his.

IMHO, I will stand by the general statement that most women get a BIG THRILL from having their men cum with them, inside them. There are many physiological things that occur when a man cums in a woman that benefit the relationship. Bonding, a sense of well being, satisfaction, limerence...we all know the drill. No pun intended...

Does anyone think that she feels if he did it before what is keeping him from doing it again? Or she wonders why Wronged does not make an effort to work on the issue?

I guess the real question would be why would his WW stay in a relationship where she had a "massive issue"?

I do agree that having sex with someone other than your husband is a horrible way to deal with issues in your marriage. She could have expressed her unhappiness or just divorced. She has a broken moral compass.

Then in my eyes, im sorry but she isn't worth it!

Amen to that^^^

Hi everyone,

It's 11.20pm and I am shattered so don't have the time to go through all of this right now but thought I'd check in to say thanks and I am okay.

Basically had a rather fun day yesterday which involved drinking until 5am and so when my wife came back I'd hardly even gotten out of bed, so there went the plan to not be there and for her to get her things. I realised a lot when I was drunk too, espec the point someone made about how they regretted never having tried to reconcile with their wife - that really resonated with me, so thanks a million, and also some lovely people have sent me some lovely PMs saying the same thing and SHE WAS DRUNK AND TOLD YOU, etc, which helped me swallow my pride. Thanks again!

Although trying to end our marriage on Fri prob wasn't ideal, maybe I needed to do that for my pride (who knows?) and I prob needed to get that anger out at some point.

Anyway, I'm waffling on. Point is, she got back, we chatted calmly for about four hours and, as we both still love each other, we're going to give it a go. Couples counseling for us and will try with the baby and climaxing things later down the line.

She's looking after me and we're talking to each other in a much nicer fashion than we have for years (less bickering), so hopefully that will last.

I need some sleep but will be back on tomorrow night to go over the above, but (fingers crossed!) the daily updates won't be required any more, though I obviously know that this is only the beginning.

All in all, it looks like I'll never have to do the washing up again and I've still got the offer to sleep with an inexpensive prostitute in the back pocket, so there is a bright side too (don't worry, I'm not going to do the latter!).

The climaxing thing was not an excuse (drink is the big one - though she still says that's not good enough but she's sorry, etc) but we're going to try and address that along with everything else (it seems like a good time to try and clear everything up) later down the line. It wasn't complained about in the past but has been realised is an issue now (I honestly didn't realise that women love this so much - but then again... I'm a man I suppose!). She joked earlier that she will prob end up taking me back in and saying, 'Can you stick some back on please, the stupid b@stard keeps prematurely ejaculating now'. Which was quite funny.

Anyway, hopefully Friday was the worst of it and I thank you all once again. See you tomorrow!

[This message edited by TheWrongedMan at 5:38 PM, January 19th (Sunday)]

Point is, she got back, we chatted calmly for about four hours and, as we both still love each other, we're going to give it a go.

That is beautiful.

The road through infidelity is a long one. With with love and respect you will make it. Please be kind to one another. Best of luck to the two of you!

(((((Wronged and WW)))))

Hey Wronged,

I haven‘t had the time to be here on SI lately but every time I‘ve dropped in I‘ve monitored your situation. Wish I had chipped in days ago... For what it‘s worth then here is my take on some aspects of your situation. I’m a former cop and in my later career after leaving law enforcement have spent a lot of time in project management, human resources and crisis management. I believe my past gives me a rather cynical but accurate ability to assess human behavior and interaction.

Let me start by telling you that I think this is a none-planned, one off event for your wife. I reach this conclusion from reading about her actions and reactions for the day this happened. They are not in line with a planned, long-term affair; an exit affair or repeated behavior. And as some have pointed out; her coming directly home and confessing is an EXTREMELY positive thing.

Second: I think the worst advice ever offered here on SI is the “don’t need to decide anything right now” line. If ANYTHING then infidelity requires ACTION. Rephrase the sentence this way and it makes sense “don’t do anything that’s irreversible or burns bridges behind you and THINK all actions through”. IMHO you really need to commit to R or D right away after d-day but you need to do so from a logical, sensible point.

When dealing with a crisis it’s imperative to know the possible paths out, their costs, benefits and requirements. So after d-day then EVEN IF you decide to R then knowing what D entails only makes sense. If you want to R then it makes sense to realize what it requires. Basically IMHO R only requires a couple of things to start; commitment, no active infidelity and communications. To complete R you need a lot more, including the utter remorse often mentioned, but to START the journey you basically only need to hold hands and start walking along the path.

OK – Shortly after joining the police a veteran pointed out to me that seldom – if EVER – a culprit will fully acknowledge the guilt and blame of his actions. So a rapist would admit to the intercourse but adamantly maintain the victim wanted it, asked for it or “liked it rough”. The burglar would maintain this was his only option for feeding his family and that the damage was covered by the victims insurance. The assailant would maintain the other man needed a beating or asked for it. The drunk driver had a very important meeting and “wasn’t THAT drunk” or didn’t realize how tired he was… Whatever… No matter the crime there was an excuse.

Only two types of people seemed capable of fully acknowledging that what they did was morally wrong and totally their fault: 1) extremely wholesome and thoughtful people that were honest enough to themselves to realize their culpability and 2) sociopaths. For sociopaths admitting guilt wasn’t really an issue.

So when your wife comes home she’s wondering what the h@ll happened. This isn’t her normal behavior and even she realizes that what she did is wrong. So she does exactly what all those burglars, rapists, drunk drivers… do: She tries to find something or anything to explain or even slightly justify her actions.

Go read your posts; all this about feeling unfulfilled, being a cliché, the child issue… – these are all explanations to “understand” her behavior. Just like the burglar thinks his crime is victimless because insurance probably covers the damage. Just like the rapist is convinced that the woman wanted it rough and really wasn’t putting up a fight.

OK – So let’s step aside a bit and look at what happened: What your wife did might have been unplanned and a single, one off event. BUT… she did it. It is something that at some point she DECIDED to carry through. At some point – no matter how drunk – she decided to take that one step further. One step more than her warning system told her was OK.

(Regarding the alcohol… It’s no excuse. Chances are she was drunk, but she was obviously still capable of reaching a decision to carry on. If not… well… then this is rape rather than infidelity and so far she hasn’t jumped on that wagon).

Get it? At the elevator, at the end of the corridor, at the door of the room, at the first kiss… There are so many steps where she could have said “no”. But she didn’t. To me this is a major point that we (and the WS) have to accept: YOUR WIFE MADE A CLEAR AND CONCIOUS DECISSION TO HAVE AN AFFAIR.

Why is this so important? Well… what if she didn’t decide to have the affair? If we accept that an affair can take place without the WS acceptance… well… there is no way to avoid another affair.

It’s sort of like why we expect members of a marching band not to shit on the road during a parade but don’t complain if a horse does so. Why? Well… the horse can’t help it. If your wife doesn’t accept the whole and total blame of the affair WITH NO EXCUSE such as lack of fulfilment, wanting a child, sexual issues or whatever… then you can’t expect her not to drop one next parade.

All the issues she brings home… they are relevant to how your marriage progresses. But they aren’t really relevant to the infidelity. No matter what state your marriage was in… the solution was never to have an affair.

You too need to be careful not to seek excuses for her. That’s something I also saw a lot of; people making excuses for why they were the victims.

So IMHO if you want to reconcile then you sort of have to accept her for what she is and what she has done.

Without accepting that it’s acceptable behavior.

She has to acknowledge that no matter what her issues are then her actions are totally unacceptable and unforgivable. And that despite them being so you will find some way of forgiving, hopefully way before she forgives herself.

Look – You two won’t “fix” anything per se right now. Over time you will heal. Along that path you will hopefully deal with issues such as communications, joint goals and what you want out of life. (The child issue is a big red flag that there is something missing in that area with you two…). Let her go to IC and DO NOT expect her to bring home the patent solution to all the worlds issues every time. In fact – make it clear to her that HER IC is HER IC and you aren’t really interested in what goes on in there. That she is your wife of her own free will and that if that’s not enough for her… well… she’s free to go. That role has its benefits but it requires concessions. Such as your concession not to go buy a prostitute, not to lay hands on your wife and so on.

Go to MC to get help on the relationship but use IC to become better capable of contributing to MC.

Finally… A question: Socially is it you with your mates and she with her mates? Is your social life centered around having a pint? Do you two do anything “wholesome” together that’s not centered around daily mundane household activities? I’m thinking walks, theatre, opera… Things in that vein.

Hey TWM, was in London today and was thinking of you. How are you doing?

Hey Wronged, haven't heard from you in a while. How are you doing?