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Why take back a cheater?

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dindy ( member #38424) posted at 7:52 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

I have also seen people try for that without having the single most critical piece - a truly remorseful, committed, and driven WS. Without that? It will never work.

This, what knowiknow23 said, is what I believe is the key to successful R.

After DDay I so wanted to R with my ex but he TT'd as well as not wanting to do the the hard work necessray for R.

He claimed he knew the A would be a deal breaker but it wasn't. He clearly wanted out.

Though, I do believe R can happen and couples can have the most amazing relationships, but, only with a remorseful WS and a long journey of hard work by both parties.

posts: 459   ·   registered: Feb. 11th, 2013   ·   location: uk
id 6639436
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Blobette ( member #36519) posted at 7:59 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

PRNDL, I'm curious where you're getting your data from? Where are these case studies from?

I think Reunite's got it absolutely right, and I'm sorry you're in such despair. What's your story?

BS (me): 51
WS: 52
Married: 27 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

posts: 1064   ·   registered: Aug. 17th, 2012
id 6639452
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bionicgal ( member #39803) posted at 8:08 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

Most of us, me included, wholeheartedly believe in the very logical "Once a cheater, always a cheater" life rule.

Hmmm. I have never thought or believed this, and I don't now. I think it is a generalization and I am not even sure it is borne out by statistics.

It is true that I thought an affair would be a dealbreaker, and if I were with someone else, it might be. But, a lot of things can happen after dday - including finding yourself and your partner, with a lot of work, sweat, tears, pain, education, counseling, and communication, in a better marriage. So, I'd check your assumptions before you make such broad allegations.

me - BS (45) - DDay - June 2013
A was 2+ months, EA/PA
In MC & Reconciling
"Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point to move forward." -- C.S. Lewis.

posts: 3521   ·   registered: Jul. 11th, 2013   ·   location: USA
id 6639467
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 PRNDL (original poster member #41927) posted at 8:17 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

Thank you everyone. I appreciate every post. Thank you for responding so fast.

I welcome any opinion, constructive critisism, kick in the ass, encouragement, and so on.

Im so tired of this. I hate myself for not having the balls to make a desicion. For missing and still loving the person that treated my so horribly during her 1.5 year A. For her looking down at me when I was on the floor crying and begging for her not to leave to go see him. She would tell my "thats unattractive. If I were to leave him, he wouldnt react like that".

Im tired of feeling guilty of not taking her back anf fixing my son's family, but something inside tells me to run.

LIMBO is wearing me down bad. At least im out of the house and I do not have to deal with the toxicity abd fighting.

Shes blaming me for not fixing this and is not helping me with the removal of my name from the mortgage, quit claim deed, divorce, and so on. Shes making me feel like im leaving her. Like im the bad guy.

Why doesnt she remember what she did?

I know my veiw is tainted regarding cheaters. This a very gray area. My therapist says im looking for concrete thinking, but with affairs, it does not exist.

I dont know what to do.

BH: 36 (me)
WS: 31 / OM: 31
Son: 12
Affair: 1.5 year long 2012
ONS with stranger Feb 2013
D-day #1 March 2013
D-day #2 April 2013
D-day #3 Sept 2013
Affair continued.
Limbo 7 months
Moved out - 180D - NC
Divorced
A over. Defogged. Trying R

posts: 212   ·   registered: Jan. 5th, 2014   ·   location: Tampa Florida
id 6639488
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 PRNDL (original poster member #41927) posted at 8:21 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

For my story please look up "Lost hurt angry scared" in the Just Found Out forum.

BH: 36 (me)
WS: 31 / OM: 31
Son: 12
Affair: 1.5 year long 2012
ONS with stranger Feb 2013
D-day #1 March 2013
D-day #2 April 2013
D-day #3 Sept 2013
Affair continued.
Limbo 7 months
Moved out - 180D - NC
Divorced
A over. Defogged. Trying R

posts: 212   ·   registered: Jan. 5th, 2014   ·   location: Tampa Florida
id 6639496
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Merlin ( member #30221) posted at 8:21 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

Take some time PRNDL. This is a big deal and you're at the front end of it.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/57 Me: BS/63 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11

posts: 1164   ·   registered: Nov. 26th, 2010   ·   location: East Coast
id 6639497
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Unagie ( member #37091) posted at 8:34 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

She would tell my "thats unattractive. If I were to leave him, he wouldnt react like that".

I am so sorry. That is vile and disgusting. I can understand why you're original post was what it was. You are dealing with an unremorseful WS, I am so truly sorry for your pain.

Why doesnt she remember what she did?

She does...she hasn't faced it. Oh she knows what she did at face value but she has yet to acknowledge what those actions have done to her as a person. She is broken and is not fixing herself. You will be able to eventually start healing and living happily. If she never changes she will always be this horrible person. That will catch up to her one day and it will be ugly.


posts: 3615   ·   registered: Oct. 10th, 2012
id 6639524
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 8:51 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

There's nothing you did or didn't do that caused your W to cheat, except to M her, that is. She cheated because of her issues, not yours.

And she doesn't sound remorseful. That's the obstacle to R. It doesn't matter what you do or don't do - you can't R unless she's remorseful and willing to do the work. (Conversely, if she finds her remorse and decides to do the work, you can R, if you want to, and hold your head high.)

It would be best for your son to have an intact, loving family, but he can't right now. You recognize that, and it's a sign of strength to recognize that.

I hear you beating yourself up. You deserve better from yourself. You've made a number of important decisions for yourself. Tell yourself you'll keep doing that. Of course you're having a hard time with the D vs. wait decision - it's a murderously difficult one to make under these conditions.

Forget generalizing - stay focused on what you want, what you need, and what's possible.

Frankly, I'm for cutting loose unremorseful WSes sooner rather than later, but you know your specific sitch better than anyone else does, so you get to make your own choice - and if you choose to wait, that's OK. No need to beat yourself up over it.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 31134   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 6639555
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ascian ( member #40304) posted at 9:16 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

I'm going to give a longer, and a bit more challenging, answer than I tend to on SI. If I remember correctly, you're an engineer (or something similar) so I'm going to go into some greater detail in my response, and directly address some of your statements. Please don't take this as a personal challenge to you, because it's not. We are, if nothing else, brothers in pain here.

This question is very interesting to me because of the following:

We dont practice what we preach. If I was giving advice to someone in my same exact situation, I would tell them to leave her ass and NEVER look back.

Well, that's the easy answer, at least, but easy isn't necessarily the best particularly when it comes to interpersonal relationships. I've dealt with friends' infidelities as well as my wife's, and I've never jumped straight to "kick the bum out."

Most of us, me included, wholeheartedly believe in the very logical "Once a cheater, always a cheater" life rule. Its a common sence rule, such as: Dont do drugs, Dont touch the oven because its hot, and so on...., yet here we are in LIMBO, in house separations, and on SI looking for advice on saving our marriages even though our marriages died long before D-day.

But we also need to acknowledge that such truisms are oversimplifications. "Don't do drugs" fails the first time you need to take antibiotics, or pain releivers, or take a No-Doze in the morning to wake up because the coffee-maker's broken. "Don't touch the oven because it's hot" isn't always true, it's quite possible for most adults to make quick adjustments to already-hot pans in the oven without needing protection (you might get a slight burn, true, but in my experience at least the pain's short lived and minor.) "Once a cheater, always a cheater" assumes a binary state of human experience and, further, allows us to delude ourselves that there's something fundamentally different between our essential nature and our wayward spouse's. Such an oversimplification implies that there exist two Platonic Ideals for humans: one Ideal that is 100% dedicated to a relationship, and one Ideal that is incapable of such dedication.

Things like that are, to use Terry Pratchett's term, "Lies-to-children." To quote Wikipedia, "Because life and its aspects can be extremely difficult to understand without experience, to present a full level of complexity to a student or child all at once can be overwhelming. Hence elementary explanations tend to be simple, concise, or simply "wrong" — but in a way that attempts to make the lesson more understandable. Sometimes the lesson can be qualified, for example by claiming "this isn't technically true, but it's easier to understand". In retrospect the first explanation may be easy to understand despite its inaccuracies, but it will later be replaced with a more sophisticated explanation which is closer to "the truth". This "tender introduction" concept is a common aspect of education.

Such statements are not usually intended as deceptions, and may, in fact, be true to a first approximation or within certain contexts. For example Newtonian mechanics is less accurate than the theory of relativity at high speeds and quantum mechanics on small scales, but it is still a valuable and valid approximation to those theories in many situations"

From what I learned, the BS never truly gets over the A.

I can't speak to the WS's experience, but only to my own. Your statement here is true, in one sense, but I think misstates the longer-term effects of an affair on the BS.

The affair and it's effects are, to me, much like a severe wound. One that's life-changing, but not necessarily life-destroying. Were I to lose an arm in a motorcycle accident, for example, my life would be forever altered. In that sense, I would "never truly get over the [accident]." But to take that as a suggestion that I would never regain a satisfactory quality of life would be a gross misstatement. I have been severely injured before: broken bones, severe and life-threatening cuts, I've even been stabbed in one eye. All of these injuries have left traces in scars, in impaired vision, in joints and bones that ache when the weather changes. They do not prey on my day-to-day life, they are simply bookmarks in the story of my life. Some of them are good bookmarks (the eye, if you'd believe it) and some of them are bad, and all of them were life-changing. But none of them have taken one bit of enjoyment of life away from me.

So, for me the choice to take back my wife wasn't one made from fear or weakness. It was made because:

1) It was what I wanted. Not needed, but wanted.

2) I knew that if my wife was less than honest, or if our reconcilliation didn't work out, that I and my kids would still be alright. That it would hurt, as the broken bones, cuts, and other wounds did, but that that hurt would heal in time and I would grow beyond it.

I'll have to come back to this, I've got some work to do.

Me - BH 41
Her - FWW 38
D-Day: 8/13
Reconciled

posts: 363   ·   registered: Aug. 13th, 2013   ·   location: Midwest
id 6639607
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neverwillhapn2me ( member #41912) posted at 9:23 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

I would like to chime in here if I may. Now im at the beginning ( 1 month post DD) and to me D seems almost certain. My WW says she is remorseful and wants to R, but I see no actions. Im practicing the 180 so NC unless its children related, although we are in the same house.

I do believe she would do whatever I ask of her but I do not want to give her direction. Is this wrong? From what I have read if she was truly remorseful she would be seeking advice on how to fix the M and herself not the other way around. Am I wrong?

If you are to R I believe at least for my self I would have to work on it EVERYDAY for the rest of our M.

I have seen some people on this sight ( VERY VERY FEW) who have R. Most people 2,5,10 years down the road are still in IC,MC working on it and are still not full R

Is there ever true %100 R, I don't know.

I will always be tied to my WW through my children but her willing to endanger my health, my marriage and our children's life is unacceptable to me. Who gambles with all of this?

Not someone I want to call my partner in life.

I do not believe once a cheater always a cheater but the scars my WW have left on me and my DSx2 run so deep that even when they heal and they will, the work it would require for me to do EVERYDAY would drain me.

I need to heal first and D is probably the way im going to go. If 2,3-5 years down the road we find each other again great but it will be after we both have healed on our own.

Im rambling I know and as I said 1 month post DD for me so feelings are still very strong. but these are the thoughts that run through my mind when I think of R.

I might add that I have a 7 month old that im not sure if I am the biological father of because of ww A.

I would like to say a BIG thank you to everyone R,D or in limbo all of you have made this SOOO much easier for me.

The saddest thing about betrayal is it never comes from your enemies


If your searching for that one person that will change your life, look in the mirror.

posts: 142   ·   registered: Jan. 4th, 2014   ·   location: Ontario
id 6639616
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steadfast1973 ( member #24719) posted at 9:59 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

I think the A happened because we weren't working on it everyday. I know he wasn't, because he was expending those efforts elsewhere... And at a certain point i just quit, too. I hope we continue to work on it for the rest of our M.

Me- 42- BS Him- 38- WH D-day#1 5/25/09 multi EAs, likely PA, trickle truth, d-day#2 11/06/13 Prostitute Separated 1/2017
"I've seen your flag on the marble arch, our love is not a victory march, it's a cold and broken hallelujah"

posts: 2303   ·   registered: Jul. 7th, 2009   ·   location: Kentucky
id 6639656
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ReunitePangea ( member #37529) posted at 10:28 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

neverwillhapn2me -

I do believe she would do whatever I ask of her but I do not want to give her direction. Is this wrong? From what I have read if she was truly remorseful she would be seeking advice on how to fix the M and herself not the other way around. Am I wrong?

There is not a right way or wrong way to deal with this stuff. You just need to find what works for you.

I have seen some people on this sight ( VERY VERY FEW) who have R. Most people 2,5,10 years down the road are still in IC,MC working on it and are still not full R

There are several people on this site in R - I do not have an idea of what percentage end up in R versus D but both sides are high. I am over a year out now and very happy with my direction of R.

Within 9 months after Dday I was mostly through the things I needed to get through to heal from my WWs LTA. I still deal with some things now but it isn't much. I did not do IC or MC to get to R. I know I am probably an exception as far as no IC/MC and as fast as I was able to get through it - I am just presenting that for some it is possible to go faster (or slower) than others. You need to evaluate your own situation.

BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

posts: 489   ·   registered: Nov. 16th, 2012
id 6639696
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nowiknow23 ( member #33226) posted at 10:48 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

Most people 2,5,10 years down the road are still in IC,MC working on it and are still not full R

There are many people who are in successful R, 2-5-10 years down the road, who no longer post here. Some folks stay around to help out, but if you are going by the people who are active on SI, you are looking at a skewed sampling.

You can call me NIK

And never grow a wishbone, daughter, where your backbone ought to be.
― Sarah McMane

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id 6639740
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neverwillhapn2me ( member #41912) posted at 11:09 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

I do not want to t/j

However I know I do not have the answers and I know I am not far enough away from DD to have a clue on what needs to be done in my M.I can only be true to myself and state how I am currently feeling.

I do this for the exact responses you all have given on this thread and others I have posted on or created, to get honest feed back. Its extremely helpful to hear similar responses on feelings and actions one took.

Also even better to see others completely blow you away with their progress through reading long term threads.

I know none of us have the percentages of how many R or D or are miserable after years of attempting R. Does it really matter? I think not.

This site is here to help support all of us with whatever direction we take. I mean there are over 40,000 to join its staggering how many people join a day.

Im thank full for all the advice and support I have gotten here.

At the end of the day it takes both spouses to work on the M. If the BS is done then there is no point to attempt R.

My current struggle is making sure I am actually done before I file for D, simply for the sake of my children.

The saddest thing about betrayal is it never comes from your enemies


If your searching for that one person that will change your life, look in the mirror.

posts: 142   ·   registered: Jan. 4th, 2014   ·   location: Ontario
id 6639775
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Razor ( member #16345) posted at 11:21 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

To answer your question. Why take back a cheater?

Why? Because you still love them. Because you have children. Because you have a long shared history together. Because your lives are so interwoven that they can not be separated cleanly. Because separating your lives will do great damage to each. Because the damage caused by D would be worse than staying together.

Why? Because your WS is genuinely remorseful. That they have changed their behaviors and habits. That they have developed very strict boundaries and work their butt off to maintain them.

Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche

posts: 3483   ·   registered: Sep. 25th, 2007
id 6639799
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GotMyLifeBck2013 ( member #40531) posted at 11:23 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

Ive said it before, i think once a cheater always a cheater is 100% true. Not because some waywards cant stop and never cheat again. Rather the saying means the world looks at you differently. You abandoned trust, ran from love and commitment, sometimes you just ran from a bad situation but the choice to do it in a harmful way is all on you. No matter what anyone says they have a slight twinge and a cross thought when dealing with a cheater. It becomes the defining moment of their life. In one way or another the cheater will live with the cheating forever.

I define me! I don't just survive, I thrive!!

Me: fBH 46
Her: exWW 42
DDay: Nov 1, 2012
Divorced: September 17, 2013

posts: 289   ·   registered: Sep. 3rd, 2013   ·   location: Ohio
id 6639801
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neverwillhapn2me ( member #41912) posted at 12:02 AM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2014

IMHO the sad truth is no matter how much IC or MC the WS does or how remorsefull they seem to be or how well your M is currently going. You have no idea if the WS will no longer be capable of an A until times get tough again, or until an oprtunity shows itself and your WS passes the test.

The saddest thing about betrayal is it never comes from your enemies


If your searching for that one person that will change your life, look in the mirror.

posts: 142   ·   registered: Jan. 4th, 2014   ·   location: Ontario
id 6639851
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unfound ( member #12802) posted at 12:14 AM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2014

Some folks stay around to help out, but if you are going by the people who are active on SI, you are looking at a skewed sampling.

I've been called a lot of things, but I think a skewed sampling is the best yet .

Why take back a cheater?

There are as many reasons are there are BS's. Some are realistic and based in healthy thinking/decision making, others, not so much.

No matter what anyone says they have a slight twinge and a cross thought when dealing with a cheater.

this "anyone's" last dealing with a WS (not counting my own H), was quite pleasant, and not one single twinge or cross thought was given.

I, for one, and glad that my past actions don't define me. The 80's weren't my finest hour.

ka-mai
*************
Kids on the playground can be so cruel. “Get off the swings you’re like 50, and stop talking about Soundgarden, we don't even know what that is."

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Blobette ( member #36519) posted at 12:17 AM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2014

Never will: but the logical fallacy there is that a new person might cheat as well. A BS is damaged goods, in the trust department. We will never trust anyone fully again. At least with our remorseful WS, we know what we've got. I know how pathetic that sounds, but there's no going back for us. So, given who we are, Given the damage we've experienced, what's the best move? In my case, I believe that my WH is not likely to do this again and that my best chance for happiness lies in trying to take in my WH's efforts to show how much he loves me. The challenge I have is getting to happy. That's all about me - and I'm stuck with me, whether I go or stay.

It's quite a different situation when you don't have a remorseful partner. Kick 'em out! It's painful, soul-destroying, all of that... But it's the right thing to do. Kicking out a remorseful WS can also be the right thing, if the BS really can't live with it. But that' same tough decision.

Rambling now...

BS (me): 51
WS: 52
Married: 27 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

posts: 1064   ·   registered: Aug. 17th, 2012
id 6639886
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Blobette ( member #36519) posted at 12:17 AM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2014

Never will: but the logical fallacy there is that a new person might cheat as well. A BS is damaged goods, in the trust department. We will never trust anyone fully again. At least with our remorseful WS, we know what we've got. I know how pathetic that sounds, but there's no going back for us. So, given who we are, Given the damage we've experienced, what's the best move? In my case, I believe that my WH is not likely to do this again and that my best chance for happiness lies in trying to take in my WH's efforts to show how much he loves me. The challenge I have is getting to happy. That's all about me - and I'm stuck with me, whether I go or stay.

It's quite a different situation when you don't have a remorseful partner. Kick 'em out! It's painful, soul-destroying, all of that... But it's the right thing to do. Kicking out a remorseful WS can also be the right thing, if the BS really can't live with it. But that' same tough decision.

Rambling now...

BS (me): 51
WS: 52
Married: 27 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

posts: 1064   ·   registered: Aug. 17th, 2012
id 6639887
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