SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't get it either Scubachick......this post is proof of that fact.

Maybe I was trying to read too much into what this new MC was trying to do today.....maybe I was trying to pull out of a rut ..... Maybe I thought if I posted my thoughts would develop more.

I don't get it either.

I'm sure I have grown. I'm sure I have and am changing. But $4k and. 17 months into this......I still can't fully grasp WHY.

Maybe I never will. Maybe it is not important. Maybe I already know why and am not willing to accept the simple facts if the matter ..... because those simple facts seem to have cost SO MUCH !

God help us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:17 PM, January 22nd (Wednesday)]

My SAWH - at the height of his waywardness - would probably have boundaries with someone who is unattractive and get away from them ASAP but definitely "cruise" someone who fit his attraction ideal.

I agree with the comments about opportunity. I am sure that had a lot to do with my SAWH's affair. It was a perfect storm of low self esteem, FOO, opportunity, bad coping skills and bad boundaries. And 10 months after DD and 3.5 years after the affair began, the wreckage is still being cleared, so watch where you step.

I read "NOT 'just friends'" a few weeks ago myself. My husband fit 10 of the 11 indicators of having an affair as he doesn't travel frequently for work. But lots of family issues, no worries about social or familial repercussions of having an affair (I suspect that one of his parents had one), opportunity to meet attractive females through work.

I had the opportunity to get together with an old friend recently. She's about 8 years older than I am and has a similar situation in that she rarely had sex with her husband, he did not want to seek therapy. So she had an affair. She hasn't left her BS and the A has ended because it was with someone she worked with and both of their work situations changed and they would not have been able to finance the A otherwise. I guess what this showed me is that if I had the opportunity to cheat (which I don't because I am currently at home with my kids) I might be tempted. I think I had reached that point last year around the time I discovered the affair. I was trying to work up the courage to talk about our issues with him…imagine my surprise to find out about the affair.

I think all of us BS would like to think we are way above all of that…but speaking for myself, I may have been tempted to cheat if I had the opportunity.

I'm not a total believer on the opportunity being a factor thing. Obviously if you are a heterosexual male and only surrounded by men all day, don't own a phone or computer with Internet access, etc etc, you have little to no opportunity. I feel like opportunity is just a justification for the A. Like my WH could say "what do you expect...I worked with her everyday." Right now I'm at the gym. It is just me and one other person. The other person is a man, probably a little younger than me. Could I blame an A with this person because we were both in the same place at the same time and alone?

ETA: My point is that than opportunity is everywhere so how much of a factor is it really?

[This message edited by TattoodChinaDoll at 9:45 PM, January 22nd (Wednesday)]

When one lives life consistent with the high values that they have adopted and strives to live their life with integrity it reduces that need to purposefully set boundaries.

I do not to cheat, not because I set boundaries, but because I know right from wrong and I choose to do right.

It was not that I have a higher moral code, stronger moral fabric, less sinful, more perfect, less viral, less attractive, etc.....its that I was aware of the "strongest contributing predictor" to having an affair......opportunity.

When opportunity presents itself a persons strength of character, integrity, and value system will dictate the decisions and actions that he/she takes.

[This message edited by RidingHealingRd at 10:22 PM, January 22nd (Wednesday)]

I think that people who don't have awareness of any issues with boundaries but end up in a situation where opportunity is "strongly encouraged" can end up being in an affair.

I think some people haven't had to test certain boundaries yet ... maybe just by chance or maybe because of some structure that has limited their exposure to certain opportunities.

In other words, I do agree that opportunity is a big key factor in many affairs but that boundaries are what ultimately keep a person from having an affair.

I also agree that a person can seek to find opportunities because of poor boundaries but this is different than someone being in a situation where opportunity presents itself without their orchestrating it.

I think my FWH is an example of someone who didn't have foresight of his own boundary issues. I don't think he deserves "a break" for this either but the toxic AP he had opportunity with was a big factor in his having an affair. He has since had to shore up his boundaries and rethink how he wants to live his life up to his own moral standards.

[This message edited by FaithStricken at 10:43 PM, January 22nd (Wednesday)]

I work in a primarily woman dominated field, and in an office that has almost all women. There are literally three men in our office, none of whom are attractive.

Most of the women in our office are in relationships of some sort. But even for women not in relationships- people present themselves as available, or as unavailable. It has a lot to do with boundaries, topics of conversations that they bring up, and their whole demeanor.

I don't think that ANY of the women in my office go to work and INTEND to start an affair with the men in our office. But some of the women in our office definitely send "available" vibes, and it very obvious.

That, I believe, is the difference.

I sit by a man in the office. He is very nice. We work in a medical clinic. Stuff comes up that isn't necessarily "appropriate." I have had conversations about vaginas, periods, boobs, babies, penises- you name it with and in front of this man. He and I have been out to lunch together (in a group setting, not privately), we have gone to after work group functions together. One time, he even drove and I rode in the car with him. He knows I have a husband- and he knows when we are irritated with each other. I know he has a girlfriend, and I know when they are fighting. I know he loves his girlfriend, even when he is mad at her. He knows I love my husband even when I am mad at him (and we don't talk about relationship specifics or anything). We are friends. Not best friends, but good friends.

Why is this not an affair? Because:

1) I am not available. He knows this. I have not presented myself as available. There is no confusion about this, no mixed messages sent.

2) boundaries- I don't hang out with him alone, I don't call or text him unless it is work related, I don't go into relationship specifics or vent about my husband to him. Not tons of strict boundaries, but appropriate ones.

3) I would act no differently around this man if my husband was at work and sitting right next to me.

I think that those who don't have specific boundaries unconsciously (or consciously) present themselves to others as available. To me, that is the difference.

Thank you, blakesteel, for initiating this conversation. I appreciate everyone's comments and insights. It's helpful to me, too, to be reminded that opportunity was indeed a huge factor as well as my H's naivete about boundaries. But I could list several other things that were priming him for his A - and most of them were unique to him and the circumstances he was in. And we've gone round and round about all of them. How he got involved with the OW is a story I can tell very well now. In fact, I've often repeated it to him just to make sure I have the facts straight and the details right. I actually think a good bit of those details allude to the why of the A. But I think the only way I would ever be able to understand the how and why of it all is if I crawled inside my H's skin and re-lived every minute of it. And even then, because I am not him and he is not me, I probably still wouldn't get it.

Oh, and blakesteel, go easy on yourself with the self criticism. You are not ignorant or blind, this is a worthwhile post and your threads are thoughtful and very helpful! I believe every journey that's worth taking, and that includes this one that we're all on, demands we open our eyes and learn something new.

Thanks for the continued posts..... Not at all where I thought I was going with this. Fell asleep while talking to my brother on the phone last night at 8:30.....a bit embarrassing but speaks to how tired I was yesterday and explains a bit of my Ricky and confusing start of this post. It's 2 a.m., should be asleep but have some clarity now....and it jives with what some of you have posted .

I tried to discuss this with my wife last night.... After I fell asleep talking to my brother but before I had " decent rest". Didn't go well and I should have passed on this until I had rested.

I think my multiple DD's, the fact that my wife was dumped and never chose to stop her A, months of intentional lies and trickle truths, regret over losing her OM was quick to come to her while remorse for hurting me was slow to come all factor into why I think I ask "why" if her.

Then, when the "healthy natural progression" a WS goes through to become a fWS.....the process by which real light disposes of the fantasy light their world was lit by.....and a healthier perspective is had by them, they see their actions in a "truer light"......it causes me to feel as if the facts have once again changed.

Because many of my "facts" if my wife's affair are tied to the "truths" she told me ......I am dependent on her to tell me the truth.....17 months out and some truths appear to be "dynamic in nature ?????

Am I confusing facts and truths? KWIM?

Maybe this is the "crazy making shit" my old counsellor spoke of as she said what adultery is.....and I should just leave it at that?

. I don't think he deserves "a break" for this either but the toxic AP he had opportunity with was a big factor in his having an affair.

Faith stricken....as my wife's perspective has changed I have learned a few new details about her A. A big one was that he presented poems to her when they met to run together . So the simple act of being alone on a remote trail together was NOT all that was "in play" here. The first poem was accepted with a "why are you giving a poem to me?" response from my wife. She sees NOW why "just a friend" might do that. He was also the one to repeatedly suggest they meet at a house they own in the country...."so they don't have to worry about people thinking the wrong thing if they were seen on the trail together".

Like your husband.....it is easy to see what the fAP was up to now. But at the time these actions "seemed innocent enough". Like you pointed out, my wife STILL had a choice...and, while the AP actions made it easier for my wife to make those dreadful choices, she still made them . Not raped or was slipped a "Mickey"....

I think all of us BS would like to think we are way above all of that…but speaking for myself, I may have been tempted to cheat if I had the opportunity.

This is me womaninflux......and is most likely why I had my boundaries and safety's in place.....I simply didn't trust myself to be able to resist all temptation. My wife disagrees with me.....says she could never see me cheating. But would NOT be comfortable with me spending the day wade fishing my favorite creek with a girl. A factor of how cunning a woman can be and how simple I am, worried might not chose to commit adultery but would find myself in an A anyway?

I would have been totally supportive if my wife running with a man pre-A. At that time my wife would not be okay with me going fishing with a woman.

Which is why I thought my wife knew exactly what am she was up to from the beginning..... I had ZERO jealous feelings....never felt threatened by other men interacting with my wife. Have my wife zero reason not to tell me about this OM.....and, yet, she chose to keep it a secret.

As it has come out over the past 17 months......this "secret keeping" or "omitting full truths" from me is a mode of operation my wife has had since childhood. Her sister has encouraged this at key points in our M where the truth would have been hugely beneficial to us. (I know, when is the truth destructive....right? Truths can be painful but I think are almost always constructive....or are at least needed to START construction.... The foundation if you will).

BeyondBreaking.....totally agree with all you posted.

A person can put out the "available" or "not available" vibe out. My wife was putting the available vibe out....vibe to him as she accepted poetry, vibe to herself as she reached out to her sister but revealed the situation as she wanted to do that her sister would say what she wanted to hear.....that what she was

doing was "not that bad and she could just stop on her own".

Boundarys are a part of this as well.

The whole "would I do this if my spouse were here?" question? This is a trick I have used for a long time to check my actions. I observe a man at work who is engaged in at least an EA with a co-worker. I thought that for years.....my wife even noticed something was not right between them. How? Because if his change in body language as well as their conversation switch when I "walk in in them". Wife saw this one day when he came into the restaurant where wife and I were having lunch. I offered to have him join us......to which he nervously replied "thanks.......but I am meeting.......someone ." 5 minutes later I walks this woman coworker. Why wouldn't he just say I am meeting "coworker" for lunch if they were truly "just friends".

Think my wife would have felt comfortable accepting a poem from the OM if I had been standing next to her?

That "question tool" works! Thanks for the reminder.

God help us all.

Thanks kyrie!

This post HAS been helpful.

First, humbled me as I was proud of it...thinking I had a well thought out opening statement . Wasn't the case and a reminder that my passion does not equal wisdom.

Second, the many varied responses actually DID give me a chance to pick up some new thoughts, if not full on wisdom.

Note: I was humbled by the fact that I fell asleep talking to my brother on the phone last night. My wife nudged me, my first response was confusion, followed by defensiveness ( no way did I do that!), followed by embarrassment, acceptance then a call to apologize.

It appears I needed to check my pride last night....and had a couple of opportunities to do just that!

I do appreciate the kind words.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 2:41 AM, January 23rd (Thursday)]

I think that opportunity becomes much more important to consciously avoid if you yourself recognize that you are someone who has problems maintaining said boundaries.

Liked your whole post FacePunched.... But that part is probably me.

I worry about NOT being able to maintain my boundary if temptations are too great....so I avoid those situations when I am aware of them, then use that " question technique" to shore that boundary up when I find myself in "unavoidable" or "unforeseen" circumstances.

This is what I meant when I said I don't have a particularly strong moral code...I question the porosity of my boundaries.....so it's more like I don't go to places where they will be regularly and rigorously tested.....kwim?

I perceive a weakness in me.....am glad I have not proven this weakness to be an actual part if me...... But something perceived can be achieved . Said another way.....I don't want to be a drunk , think I could be , so I don't drink regularly.....consciously limit myself to 1 beer when I cook dinner on the grill and stop after that.

Actually, that is a real world example. My family has alcoholism as a common trait. My brothers and I are aware of this.....none of us are alcoholics but we all very much operate with firm boundaries surrounding alcohol because we perceive this to be an area in our lives needing to be cautious of.

Cool.......that analogy helps me out.....thanks for your post FacePunched ! Kind of an ah-ha moment.

My dad had an A........perhaps this is why I thought I was prone to A as well?

Peace .

I wanted to respond yesterday but I didn't have time.

I agree with Tooanalytical's comment, that several factors are needed, which I say are AKA ingredients, AKA first layers of whys, AKA predictors:

- Opportunity, - Poor Boundaries, - Lack of Self Esteem, - Lack of Strong Morals. These are all needed.

I also agree with Facepunched's statement that opportunities and boundaries are connected somewhat, and Scubachick's comment, on how a man having strict boundaries can sometimes seem rigid and borderline rude.

I would like to add that people sometimes create their own opportunity because of who they are and who they hang around with, like how a drug user hangs around with drug users, and low moral selfish spouses hang around with like spouses or with a "fun" single or divorced crowd. Birds of a feather flock together and this creates more opportunity.

I would also like to add that more women are working in today's society and this is being used to explain why more women are having affairs, aka, increased opportunity. I don't disagree there is more opportunity and it contributes , but I would also like to say we seem to be working harder and longer and I believe the "connection" between spouses is more strained and our society has not compensated for it. I am hopeful that our next generations will come to understand the trauma caused by workforce affairs and the senselessness of it. Teach say no to drugs AND say no to affairs.

I think we are all vulnerable to some extent. People may become more vulnerable due to an increase in opportunity (workforce), temporary lack of self esteem (fight with spouse, boss, job problem), drop in boundaries (e.g., working longer and closer with a coworker where conversations become deeper), loss of connection with their spouse (busy, time away, kids sports), or drop in morals (hanging with the the wrong crowd, group think), .....or a combination of all five. Either we are lucky enough or smart enough to identify the increased vulnerability and compensate for it, or enough straw is piled on the camel's back and we become infatuated and sucked into an affair.

Thank you for this discussion Blakesteele.

When one lives life consistent with the high values that they have adopted and strives to live their life with integrity it reduces that need to purposefully set boundaries.

I do not to cheat, not because I set boundaries, but because I know right from wrong and I choose to do right.

this. this this this is what I was trying to say.

and she most likely had no intention of keeping him a secret from me

I really have difficulty with this.

I agree with opportunity = an increase in affairs. The root of it all though is one's morals and integrity. It all starts there. And then if those are not strong, you will not have the boundaries that you need. When you don't have strong boundaries you increase opportunity.

In other words, I think every remorseful WS had eroded their integrity and morality in their own mind (curiousity, seeing peers having affairs, thinking their behaviors are innocent, thinking that they have it under control and it wont go further, telling themselves what their spouse doesnt know wont hurt them, etc). That led to boundaries being loosened.....the WS doing things that they shouldn't have been doing. That led to more opportunities and possibly putting out the vibe that they were "receptive". After that it was only a matter of time.

Obviously many things factor into your morals and integrity. F00 issues, self-esteem, your sense of right and wrong, the "perceived" harm of a particular situation, and life stress can all factor into your decision at the time. It is my belief that the real work a WS needs to do is to raise their own integrity and morality. This is where each WS has to look at their own issues and what caused their morality and integrity to not be up where it should be. For some it's F00 issues for others it's self-esteem. And for some, it's just wayward mindset (Independent thinking, selfishness, lack of empathy, etc.).

For my H, it was the wayward mindset with a little bit of the infidelity-friendly work environment (My grandmother always said if you lie down with dogs you come up with fleas.) Which alone would never have led him to do what he did. But when combined with acute stress and temptation by someone he was attracted to coming on to him....he seized the opportunity to "feel better". He regretted it immediately and he sees clearly that moral erosion. He has changed his views on infidelity, selfishness, empathy, communication, and most importantly his own integrity. These changes in thought are what produces changes in action. one of those actions is making sure he has firm BOUNDARIES.

Great topic Blakesteele!

[This message edited by RipsInMyChest at 8:49 AM, January 23rd (Thursday)]

I feel like "boundaries" is shorthand for a lot of stuff that might be worth unpacking. Why does or doesn't a person have boundaries? -- that's the question! In some cases (like my WH) it's a simple case of emotional immaturity.

But personally, I think that the main thing that allowed my WH to cheat was his ability to compartmentalize. As far as I can tell, he really was able to convince himself that A had nothing to do with B. I (and many other people on here) find that really hard to understand. But then, we're healthy, integrated people. Or at least somewhat healthy... The point here is that he has had a huge amount of practice with compartmentalizing -- that was his response to his family issues. That's just how some people respond to messed-up families, and in some cases it's a viable coping mechanism. It's not clear why some people do that rather than other ways of dealing, but that's beyond my area of expertise. Whatever. That was WH's method and, unfortunately, it really enabled him to do something that -- perhaps -- he might not otherwise have done. Who knows?

Opportunity was a big factor for him, of course. His A started in Edinburgh on a work trip, and was consummated in DC, on a work trip. Very easy to think it was a totally separate thing. But, like many other people here, I have also had opportunity. Motive, opportunity, and weapon, in fact -- a ready and willing partner that I was extremely attracted to. But I didn't go there, in part because I KNEW not just how it would make WH feel -- which was horrible to contemplate -- but also how it would make ME feel -- like a dirty liar.

So, sure he didn't have boundaries. But boundaries are only part of the picture. The big question, for me, is how do you live with yourself while you're in an A? You need to be able to shut off empathy for your spouse. Those of us who don't, don't because we feel connected enough to know, in our heart, how our actions would affect our partners. My WH dealt with this by convincing himself that I would never know, would never be hurt by it. He shut it down and by doing so, shut himself down. It's nice to see that changing.

Thanks for posting this blakesteele. It's something that's been on my mind. I think both myself and WH showed most of those signs...before becoming a SAHM I had opportunity, poor boundaries and low self esteem. WH has opportunity, poor boundaries and low morals. Ironic that I'm the one who would get too friendly with employees/coworkers telling them tmi all the time. My WH would call me out on it. I never really "got it" until a few years ago. Because of my low self esteem I wanted to be everyone's friend. I way over shared. I see that now. There was even one coworker who's marriage was going through a rough patch at the same time as mine several years ago. He ended up getting divorced. The opportunity to cheat could've been there but I have high morals so maybe that's what stopped me from sending signals. I really don't know. We definitely talked about our marriage woes at length. I would complain constantly about my WH all the while saying I love him. Kwim? Then after we move here (500+ miles away from almost everyone we know) 15 months ago he sets poor boundaries with new coworkers and his EA (PA?) starts 5 months later. His "journey" was definitely a slippery slope affair. It started out with her mentoring him through a store opening and became more as problems with the location persisted and they chatted more and more through calls and texts, finally leading to weekly meet ups for lunch. Of course I knew nothing about her at all. He kept their relationship hidden. And of course I heard the line we're "just friends" when I discovered it. What I've learned about myself from all this is that I needed to shore up my boundaries especially since I'm planning to go back into the workforce soon. Also, I'm working on making WH more away if his issues...besides the obvious poor boundaries he has a bad habit of using little white lies constantly. I continue to point them out to make him aware because it's now become a bad habit he's not aware of.

Another thing I agree wholeheartedly about is asking yourself the question. ..Is this something I would do or say if my spouse is here? It's a great way to make sure your boundaries are firmly in place. It's another thing I'm hoping WH will start doing. And I'm firm believer to never put yourself in a place where you are alone with the opposite sex. That's when many opportunities arise IMO.

Great topic Blakesteele!

Funny......I almost deleted this post completely after my stumbling start. Never felt like doing that before....and am glad I didn't!

The many posts strengthened what was an incredibly weak original post to start with.

Thanks everyone for salvaging this into a productive post!

God be with us all.

In my experience, boundaries are imperative.

I bristle a little at the "values and morals" argument, because I just don't think it is accurate to act as if they are something you have, or you don't. Or, that if you "have" them, then you are immune from cheating. Most cheaters never thought they would -- so to me it is empty to say "I'd never do that because of my morals." Very few people imagine themselves to be doing an evil thing -- most waywards rationalized what they were doing -- they fooled themselves. So, while it would be a stretch to say that many of them thought they were acting morally during the affair, my bet is that most of them probably saw themselves as people with values and morals before. . .

their boundaries slipped when there was opportunity.

I also don't see the boundaries thing as a black and white issue. Some people have poor boundaries all the time, some are walled in like Fort Knox (can be its own problem - that was me.) But, it is the relaxing of the boundaries either in the face of opportunity, or due to opportunity, that causes the slippy slide down into affair land.

My H had good boundaries in most areas. He didn't get personal with co-workers, he traveled extensively and didn't socialize with women or go out drinking, he (mostly) knew to not talk too personally with women at the gym. Where his boundaries fell down was with a relatively close family friend, someone he had a level of comfort, familiarity, and trust in, via email after a discussion in the grocery store.

Seems kind of innocent, right? But after she shared a struggle an injury that she was having, he shared. And then she shared. .. and then he shared more. . . and then, Boom. Opportunity. (She had been kind of stalking him for a while, but it was all kind of under the radar.)

So, I think it is way more complicated than he had bad values or morals. He certainly expressed poor judgement and morals at the time of the affair, but they aren't what led him to it. We will pretty much all have opportunity if we are open to it, but it is having solid boundaries in place that keep us from engaging.

I have pondered this as well with my H. He is the classic candidate for infidelity; attractive, powerful, etc, in an environment with almost all young, single women who treat him like God. Both parents cheated, early sexual experience, blah, blah. His work involved late nights and "rounds" at the local bar. No real boundaries there. Dismissive attachment, which allowed him to not have empathy for my feelings. Great ability to compartmentalize. I wasn't even aware of the CSA, low self-esteem, etc.

He was bound to cheat. Really, I'm surprised he didn't more, knowing what I know now. So why wait as long as he did? The M was as stable as ever. Why then?

Well, a few things, IMO. Extreme stress at work. Mid-life. And opportunity.

He actually didn't go looking for it in his life, and in fact had boundaries with clients and lay-employees. But when an associate started having marital troubles and work worries (and had always looked up to him) started leaning on him and "needing" him, and they went out drinking and worked all hours together. Well, what could be easier for someone with no real attachment? Wife would never know. No strings attached.

My H has said that the OW in question was not someone he had been attracted to previously. She was "easy", and fed his ego.

I truly think that it is possible if this particular situation had not arisen he may never have cheated. But he would have continued on as a "dry adulterer". His issues would have remained like a undiagnosed disease that makes you feel tired and fatigued but until it makes you acutely ill can't be discovered and treated.

So in some ways I'm glad that all of it is out in the open. And we can build something authentic together.

Thanks, blakesteele for your post today!

Catlover, I could have written your post....our husbands are very similar!