SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am such a schmuck!

My last few posts have been about how wonderful he is and how well R is going. Turns out I missed some possibly vital evidence and now I feel like such a fool!

We are in A season and I was so determined not to think about it anymore than necessary to try and make it easier on us that I gave him all the paper evidence I have on his affair so I couldn't brood over the number of texts.

Before I did I had a niggle and had another look. I can't believe I missed some more clear evidence (well it seems to be) that he is still lying to me.

I KNOW the affair is over, I just do but he is clearly still downplaying what happened when the affair was ongoing.

I posted recently about how the 3 weeks after they had sex he said he kept the ea going to keep her quiet but he was also trying to pull away. I had my doubts then cos of the number of the texts. Then I remembered seeing a strange cash withdrawal from a village post office during the affair and when I looked yesterday I found a phone call to her on an afternoon when I am sure he was out on his bike.

He still swears he hated the sex and that afterward he hated her. So why would he still send up to 62 texts a day during the supposed 'I hate her but I can't dump her in case she tells you' period. If he was just being a lapdog I would expect a few texts but not an average of about 30 a day including weekends when he was with us. Morning til night. there were days he sent none or only a few too though. He says that was when he tried standing up to her

Then I realised the strange cash withdrawal at a village was on the Saturday before they slept together, she lives in a nearby village. Then the next Saturday they slept together, then not the next but the Saturday after he called her in the middle of the day. I am sure he was out on one of his bike runs that day too.

To make matters worse he was decorating the next sunday and we had an almighty row cos I didn't like the colour. He admitted in the early days after dday that he had text and moaned to her about me that day.

None of this sounds like a guy who was only still keeping the ea going to keep her quiet.

The stupid thing is if he just told me the truth I would forgive him. He has changed so much since the affair and is so loving and thoughtful now that I do want to focus on the future but my gut is killing me. It won't let me rest and we all know our guts are usually right.

He is trying to minimise the affair I am sure of it. I just don't understand why he won't admit it. I have even told him I will forgive him anything and he just has to be honest then we can get back on track.

He just says a few times he got drawn back into talking to her by text cos it was easier when she kept texting him. He says usually he was giving blunt answers and being cold with her at work where he could judge her reaction face to face so he didn't piss her off too much in case she retaliated and told me. But he sometimes worried she was getting angry so he would join in the texting more and have a conversation to keep the peace.

He swears the post office withdrawal was when he had ridden out to the countryside on his own to think. He can't remember what the phone call was but it was only 3 secs long and he thinks he was either returning her call or ringing to have a go at her. He didn't try to ring again but then she probably rang him back I guess. He can't remember but went straight into it must have been innocent or him being off with her. I don't think so.

Basically what he has told me is he hated her after sex but couldn't end it in case she turned nasty (a distinct possibility going on her behaviour) so he would be cold at work and try and pull away slowly so she would eventually give up. He claims he used to tell her he was busy at lunch and would go and sit outside our local doctors to eat his lunch so she couldn't nag him into going places with her on their lunch break. He claims after they had sex he asked the next working day if she had given him something cos he was itching, he was trying to get her to back off. She laughed it off and continued to fawn all over him so he gave up. He was too scared to stop the texting or be blunt as he couldn't see her reaction and judge if he was pushing her too far.

So how does he explain calling her to moan about me? The huge number of texts and there timing, the phone call? The fact he brought her here to end it? Why would he bring her here if he was so scared I would find out. He claims it was so she would see me as a real person and it would make her back off.

Why would he do all that if he hated her?

As far as I can see he could not have hated her after they had sex or why not try harder to break away from her? He says he was too scared. I don't know what to believe.

It's all such a mess and there were that many texts and conversations that he only remember vague stuff like talking about films etc. He says it all would have been innocent cos he hated her but it's not ringing true with me.

I think he is trying to brush the reality of the affair under the carpet by denying as much as he can so we can move forward more quickly. I think he is trying to save me more hurt. It's clear he loves me and wants me and can't stand her now. He has done so much to prove that but he want stop digging his heels in and denying things that just don't make sense if his story is true. at least I don't think they do. Sure it's possible but the sheer number of texts makes me doubt what he says.

He says it was just easier and safer to do what she wanted.

[This message edited by olwen at 11:06 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]

(((Olwen)))

I'm sorry for this continued pain you are in. Just 2 months ago I learned my wife received poems from her fAP. First one he gave her was just a couple weeks after he said Hi to her....maybe 10-15 hours of face time . She said she thought it odd at the time but didn't raise any real flags....after all they were just friends.

When asked why she didn't tell me about the poetry (which explains the cute pet names they had for each other ) she said she assumed I knew about it.

This assumption was based on me finding and piecing together a word document in her closet . I felt like a secret agent back then....all of the pieces of torn paper spread out all over the bed. I thought it was just an email she printed....not a love poem that was "so special" between them. I never put it all together....I stopped when I found the words. "I love you"....something up until then my wife said they NEVER told each other they loved each other.

Point of all that is this;

WS's lie and do many other immoral acts. To do this the justifications are many.....she's crazy so I have to keep seeing her, we are just friends, it's just kissing, I simply married the wrong person, etc.. Between justifications , lying, denial and chemicals released while in adulterous relationships....the WS them self gets....lost .

Months of TT'ing endured here. Sounds like you a similar journey . TT'ing adds time into this sentence we have as hell on earth. If there is just one thing I pray new WS's do.....is tell the truth .

A possibility for your sitch is that Mr Olwen is trying to tell the truth ....he is just so lost due to his time in affair land and the cost to have unlimited rides while in there is great, that he honestly can't remember some details.

My wife can't give me the dates she gave him head or had unprotected intercourse with him..... Pretty important stuff, but closest she can recall is a given week. But the week she recalls was one I had a midweek conference....and we had sex that same week . So she fucked us both in the same week....that didn't sit well worth her so her answer was "it must not have been that week ".

Sounds like you don't have " recently new" data triggering you now.... Meaning he is not choosing adultery NOW.

Try and feel these painful feelings but stopping just short on acting destructively on them.

Not a fair request....your husband, my wife never held back in acting am destructively on their feelings..... But you know this is the right way to go.

God be with us all .

[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:48 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]

You are not a schmuck.

I think he is trying to brush the reality of the affair under the carpet by denying as much as he can so we can move forward more quickly. I think he is trying to save me more hurt.

Probably is....sounds like you found some evidence to believe that. I believe TT'ing from a WS seems to them to kill two birds with one stone.....it insulates them from feeling the full guilt and shame over what they have done and it makes them feel better because they are "sparing their BS hurt". Sadly, it does neither....it only appears to do them both.

Truth shall make you free. Again, a WS lives so much in a universe filled with lies and deception I don't believe they can discern what the truth really is on SOME details. Certainly when I asked my wife point-blank "Did you ever say to him that you loved him" and she replied "NO" and "No, quit asking me that already!" it was a deliberate lie.

But as far as what movies they talked about and what they were doing on exact dates? I think that is where they might not be able to remember. My wife having sex with her fAP....I believe she knows....that is a memorable experience....at least it would be to me, to most people.

Turns out I missed some possibly vital evidence and now I feel like such a fool!

I have re-read your post a couple of times now....and I am missing the "vital" part of evidence. I get that you have MORE evidence that he liked sex with her, so that counteracts his "shes crazy and I had to do it" defense. But I don't see new evidence that is vital...certainly nothing that makes you out to be a fool.

WS by their nature make their BS LOOK foolish....but that is a far sight difference than BEING foolish.

That "being made a fool of" is part of what keeps adultery in the back-alleys...why, in many ways, healing from the pain of adultery is a solo journey.

As near as I can tell, and I follow your posts closely, you have done nothing to show me you are a "fool".

You are trying to save your M. You are offering the gift of R to your husband. He, at some level, recognizes this as a gift. I suspect he is scared you will take that gift back if you knew the whole truth...failing to recognize by doing so he is slowing progress and reducing the potential your M has within it.

If you are like me.....you re-question your logic in offering R in the first place. That is normal....doesn't make you a fool.

I also suspect you most likely like the thought of your husband being "trapped" in that relationship...that his own free will was taken from him. I sooooooo wanted that to be where my wife was. She was NOT. She sought and got exactly what she wanted....an equal participant.....even an aggressor at times.

Truthfully, if this had not been the case....it would be rape. I have learned to accept the factss as they are...without some key specific details in place. If my wife had been forced against her will to be with her fAP, to have sex with him....that would not be adultery, it would be rape. If it were rape my wife would be scarred in a different way, and I would most likely be in prison as I sought to right what had been wronged.

I have come to realize that while I wanted my wife to be a victim within her affair....I am grateful that it was what it was. I don't wish harm onto my wife and I don't want to go to jail....removing me from my daughters life.

I totally get your pain....it is still within me.

Don't give up Olwen. You are not a fool. You are as strong or stronger than most of us. Your posts of last week and before are still valid.

You have a hope for your marriage even today. Hope creates a future. Hopelessness leaves you chained to the past. Our pasts are very painful due directly to the actions of our spouses....you don't want to stay there. I don't want to stay there. I don't want you or any other BS to stay there....adultery is one of the most worthless sin's out there. Don't pay any more for it by giving up.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:34 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]

WS here. I don't know if I ever posted here -- the Wayward forum is where I spend most of my time. This caught my eye:

So why would he still send up to 62 texts a day during the supposed 'I hate her but I can't dump her in case she tells you' period. If he was just being a lapdog I would expect a few texts but not an average of about 30 a day including weekends when he was with us. I do mean everyday and all day too. Morning til night.

I don't want to minimize your feelings at all. And I certainly don't want to excuse what I went through. But I had a similar experience in my A. I knew it was wrong, and repeatedly tried to end it. But I thought I had to be a "nice guy" so AP#2 wouldn't blow up. In doing so, I kept this thread of connection between us. Unfortunately for me, when I hit a low point, AP was there, and the A went on.

My point is that I didn't have the tools, the guts, mental ability, whatever, to get myself out of the hole I created. Maybe your WH was in a similar situation. Maybe he sincerely wanted to end things, but because he didn't know how, there was this thread of a connection there. And then he fell into the same sort of pattern of communication with the OW. That doesn't excuse either of us, and it doesn't excuse minimizing the A. But it is possible that your WH is telling you the truth about what he felt at the time.

Good luck.

Thanks Blake,

You know the story. He doesn't call it rape. He doesn't say he was unwilling. He says he didn't want it but he thought he could take the easier option of doing what she wanted so he could avoid pissing her off and avoid her telling me. Not wanting but willing.

He admits he chose to do it cos he was too weak to say no, not cos he wanted to. He has admitted to curiosity but that came AFTER he made his choice apparently and stopped the second he touched her and he was disgusted by what he was doing. It's hard to explain.

His story and he swears blind it's the truth and won't budge an inch no matter what I say or how I beg, is that he panicked. I have found out recently that when he asked her to take him home she told him she just wanted to park up and talk for a bit. He always said before that he thought they were just going to talk but he now remember her specifically saying that. So because she hadn't responded to his kisses he really did think they were 'just friends' again and he didn't want to upset her by saying no to talking and insisting she took him home. He thought that was ok at the time. She is (and I know this) a VERY forceful person and he never could say no to her cos she would turn on him if he did. I saw that when she came here. What she says goes or all hell breaks loose. She actually has tantrums. So he agreed.

But then when she lifted her skirt he wasn't in control of 'the game' anymore, he realised it wasn't a game anymore and he had to face the reality of the mess HE had caused and that she wasn't happy with just playing along being the doting little admirer happy with a bit of flirting and kissing. That she hadn't gone back to being a friend. She had an agenda of her own and he felt trapped when she lifted her skirt with no warning.

He reckons if she had tried to kiss him he could have said no cos she would have been less offended but he couldn't see how to say no to a woman he had been chasing when she had her skirt round her waist and not offend her. he woke up and panicked when he realised what he had started. He saw how HE had led her on by his actions. How he was going to lose me anyway cos things had gone too far now and that the only way he could hope to get away with what he had been doing (he actually said the only way he stood a chance of not losing me yeah that's right genius, sleep with her to keep me!? That makes sense) was to do what she wanted. He felt he had to face what he had started. He says he was willing to do it to keep her quiet but hated every minute of it and ended it quickly. He says the second he touched her he felt sick with the reality of it and shut down mentally but when they actually started having sex he did stop it after a few seconds and insisted she take him home.

I can actually imagine him in this situation. He is weak and won't stand up for himself. He would see it as his fault. Which it was. HE started it. HE let her know he wanted her, even though he only wanted her to want him if he is telling the truth on that one HE chased her, HE told her he was miserable with me to get sympathy and attention. Thing is I believe he wanted it to stop at the kissing. He tried to end the physical side after that but she brushed it off as nothing, so he thought she agreed with him and he was safely back in EA territory which in his eyes at the time was just a bit of fun. It was all about getting an ego boost and being wanted. Well he got his wish but it was way further than he wanted it to go.

Don't know why I am rehashing this for the hundredth time. I must stop repeating myself.

Anyway, the point is he said that afterwards he was so disgusted he hated her for putting him in that position and only continued with the ea to keep her quiet. That he didn't want anything to do with her but was too scared to end it. Ok, that could be true if it was only a few texts a day but the amount they were texting and the call to her tells me he didn't hate her.

that's the key thing. If he really hated her after why would he send so many texts and even call her? He says he just gave in for an easy life and hoped she would get bored. That he got into conversations so she wouldn't get pissed and tell me.

It just doesn't add up. Would he really keep texting her like that if it was just to keep her quiet like he says. That he was too scared of her to put his foot down so he just did what she wanted?

His story is that HE wanted everything up to and including the kisses but nothing physical after that cos he woke up and realised he didn't fancy her or want her. That HE was the aggressor right up til after that and that he tried to call the physical stuff off. That he thought she agreed so he was safe to keep the ea going for the attention. Then she called his bluff and from that point until he brought her here trying to get her to end the affair it was all about him panicking and trying to keep her quiet.

It fits with his personality. He is conflict avoidant, hungry for attention from other women to validate him, he's always been a terrible flirt but this is the first time anyone took him up on it and it went to his head. He thought he was a big man and could 'play the game' and stop it when he wanted to but she has other ideas and he didn't know how to handle it.

So why all the texts and the call. Could it just have been more cowardice? But how do you spend that much time taking to someone you hate?

My question is. Does it mean he didn't hate her after sex? Cos if it does then I am guessing he didn't hate the sex. If he did and hated her for seducing him then surely he wouldn't be able to talk to her that much. I know I couldn't have conversations with someone I hated just to hide a secret. I would confess rather than have to deal with them. But then he always took the easy route. Is this another example of that?

Ugh, my head is a shed today. Sorry for all the rambling. I just need to write to process stuff.

Somethingremorse -

Thank you very much for that. You used the exact words he did. That he had dug a hole so deep he couldn't see how to climb out of it so he stayed there. That's how he describes it. He wanted out but didn't have the guts to tell me or risk her telling me so he went along with the ea but wasn't into it and didn't enjoy the attention anymore.

I wonder if maybe the reason he did text her to moan about me was just cos she was there? You have got me thinking. It would all actually fit I guess. I guess he couldnt' let himself full on hate her til after I found out cos they had to work together and he thought he had to keep talking to her by text.

Still doesn't explain the random phone call, they never called each other apart from the odd call during working hours. or money withdrawal but that could have been innocent as he was out on his bike thinking a lot.

I find it so hard to believe him after al the tt.

Wish I could afford a polygraph. He said he would take one but we don't have the money.

I just don't know. It's all possible but confusing.

[This message edited by olwen at 8:41 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]

I think the problem is that I know if I hated someone cos they had pushed me to do something I didn't want to I could not have anything to do with them I would rather confess than have to deal with someone I hate.

Maybe I need to stop thinking what I would have done and look at what I think he would done judging by his personality. He probably would have kept it going like that out of fear.

I just can't get my head round the extent of it. So many texts. Only a hundred or so less than before the sex. Something like 400 texts first 3 weeks and 250 the next 3. It's less but still way too much if he hated her.

My darling just "came clean" he swears after I discovered a new bit of info. Many more sorrid details. I'm disgusted, appalled and ashamed he is my kids dad.

If he came clean about the affair without being caught, different outcome.

If he told me this from Dd, different outcome.

Sadly, I'm now directing my future at a different outcome.

I need to be free and clear of this sickness and show my kids their mom is much better person than their dad. Their mom will do what their dad never could. Think of them first

Hi Olwen, sorry you're still finding new hurts. That's just an awful feeling.

If I had to guess about your H, I would say he didn't hate her, he hated himself for what he'd done, and she represented that. That's probably why he was able to have the conversation when he was upset with you. Being upset with you made him being such an asshole to you not so bad, in a sick way. It's cheater thinking, clearly. He doesn't 'like' you very much, so doing something disgusting that harms you and your relationship doesn't matter so much, so he can talk to her. Again, the hate was probably really with himself, so being mad at you made that hate lessen.

Not sure if I'm being clear - but usually the 'hate' for the AP is really hatred towards the WS themselves. After all, the AP didn't make them do anything - they are just a living reminder of how low the WS can actually sink.

(((((olwen)))))

Thanks painfulpast - that does make sense. He says he hated her after. The smell of her perfume made him sick, her voice grated on him, he couldn't stand to be around her. He made excuses to avoid her on breaks.

But it seems to have been different when they were texting. There were days with loads of texts then days with only 1 or 2. He claims a lot of it was arguing but some was still the normal mundane chat they had before. For example the day there were 62 texts, it had been slowly increasing for a few days then stopped almost dead for two days, only to start building up again. He wonders if it was an argument but won't say cos he can't remember for sure. He can't remember the call at all.

I guess maybe she was a convenient person to turn to when he was mad at me. Someone he knew would sympathise with him and tell him how good he was to 'put up' with me etc.

It's so much to get my head around.

Then he goes and posts a song on facebook. Meatloaf - when rock and roll dreams come through. Beautiful lyrics. Had me crying all day. He does all these lovely things and I do appreciate them I am just so scared he is still l

lying to me about stuff. I fell for it so many times before.

My fear is simple to explain but hard to deal with. if he tells me a minimised version of the affair and I believe it then I am being a fool letting him rugsweep it and our R is based on lies. If he is telling the truth and I keep on at him for telling lies he is eventually going to have had enough and will give up.

He wants to focus on the future and is doing so much to make me feel loved but I am scared to move on in case he is minimising.

I keep trying and we will do fantastic for a few days, then my doubts creep in and I start questioning everything.

[This message edited by olwen at 9:22 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]

Olwen: You are NOT a schmuck. You are trying everything you can to save your M. You are courageous.

I know exactly what you are going through. My H has been TT'ing for months. He now swears everything is out, but who knows? Will we ever really know? At some point, and I'm not there yet, we may just have to come to terms with the fact that there will be things that we won't know.

I guess the issue that stands out most for me in your case is that your H is still minimizing his role. That doesn't mean the A is still going on, but it indicates that he is not taking complete responsibility for what he did and the depth of his betrayal. And that means he can't really look at WHY he strayed. He needs to get to the point where he's not doing that, to really understand his role, to admit it to himself and to you.

The TT is just as bad as the A in my book. It deepens the wound and makes it that much harder to believe what WS's say going forward. That's my struggle now. How can I believe you when you said X, Y, and Z just like you are now and you were lying?

Hang in there and try not to let him get away with minimizing. He needs to look at this for what it really is--a deficiency within himself that allowed him to treat you and your M as if it didn't matter. You do matter! And if he truly believes that, and it sounds like he's starting to see the light, he will face reality as it was, not as he thinks it should have gone.

TT sucks!!!

Thanks Veronique

He started out denying everything then it came out over a couple of months. At first he did blame her for everything but now admits to much more.

He said when she put his lighter down her top and he got it out it was just bravado, friends mucking about. Now he admits he was trying to impress her, look at me being the big man aren't I great.

The kissing. At first he claimed he only kissed her cos she looked like she wanted to be kissed. Then the truth came out. He was trying to impress her. He was confused about his feeling for her so kissed her to see if there was anything between them - there wasn't. His main reason though was to find out if she really did fancy him. He wanted the validation. To feel wanted.

The texting before sex - he claimed he was only replying to her texts, the ha kept trying to stop it. Later he admitted he started conversations too and kept hers going cos it made him feel special having someone so interested in him. He did keep trying to stop it, the records show that, but he wanted it too so it always started up again.

The rest he says was the price he paid for his stupidity. He got himself in a situation by doing all this stuff and chasing her so when she came on to him back he panicked and from that moment on it was all about keeping her quiet.

He knows he started it. He knows he went for it. He knows he took it but he refuses to admit to wanting it to go that far. That after he kissed her he didn't fancy her. That it woke him up.

I really do think I believe him. he has always flirted but never been called on it. I don't think he was prepared for what happened. HE says he was playing a stupid teenagers game, messing around to see if she wanted him but that he never wanted it to end up in sex.

he takes full blame for the affair. That he wanted it all til the kissing. That he was too weak to stop it and too weak to stop the affair. Too weak to tell me, too weak to be truthful with me.

The only thing he won't admit to was wanting or enjoying the sex. He says it was the worst sex of his life, like he was being dared to do it, he felt pressured.

Even though he refuses to admit to wanting the sex and is vehement he hated it and stopped almost right away he DOES admit it was his fault, his choice, his responsibility. That he DID have other choices he just couldn't think clearly at the time - he had been drinking but he refuses to blame the alcohol. He said he knew exactly what he was doing and chose to do it. Just not because he wanted to, because he could see no other way out back then.

As far as I can see he is owning his part of it. He admits he was weak and cowardly but that he made each and every choice and no one made him do it. She may have lifted her skirt and he felt pressured but she didn't hold a gun to his head. He just took the easiest choice so he does accept the blame.

He just can't tell me why he talked to her so much after the sex if he hated her. I have had better answers on here then I have got from him. HE just can't explain why he talked to her so much, other than to keep her quiet.

(((Olwen)))

One thing that I had to come to terms with was that reality, WS perception of reality, and BS perception of reality are three completely different things.

So much justification and rationalization goes into a WS's ability to have an A. Those self lies become truths and therefore the only "reality" the WS has to give.

There is a saying that there are three sides to every story. Shit, you add the AP and you probably have four sides.

There are some things that will just never jive. Can I live with that? Or will it haunt me for the rest of my life?

Thanks chico - you always give great advice. You said to me once that the truth lays between, I forgot that. I guess I will never know for sure. Maybe I should try harder to stay focussed on the future and leave the past be. Easier said than done though after so much tt. I am always scared the other shoe will drop and it will hurt more if i have let myself believe and love him Thanks again

Don't know why I am rehashing this for the hundredth time.

It's called cognitive dissonance. WH's explanations don't make sense, have never made sense, because he's blameshifting instead of placing the blame 100% squarely where it belongs. With him. And him alone.

I think he is trying to brush the reality of the affair under the carpet by denying as much as he can so we can move forward more quickly.

Yep.

He is conflict avoidant, hungry for attention from other women to validate him, he's always been a terrible flirt but this is the first time anyone took him up on it and it went to his head. He thought he was a big man and could 'play the game' and stop it when he wanted to but she has other ideas and he didn't know how to handle it.

He didn't stop it because he didn't want to stop it. Period. All this nonsense about he hated OW, he was afraid of her, is a smokescreen so he doesn't have to own up to his deliberate choice to cheat on you.

Thanks for this thread. I learn about myself every time I read or write.

The rest he says was the price he paid for his stupidity. He got himself in a situation by doing all this stuff and chasing her so when she came on to him back he panicked and from that moment on it was all about keeping her quiet.

We should admit that putting ourselves in the position for the affair, having the affair, and then talking to the AP to keep it from blowing up all come from the same place. Actually, they are all probably "the affair." I told myself that I had to appease AP. But you know what? I haven't talked to her since DDay. The ability to do that was there all of the time. I was just too whatever to do it, regardless of the good intentions. It is the same weakness. I don't want to give the impression that I or your WH were close to correct. It sounds like he understands that.

Hi, WS here.

I'm so sorry you found more evidence, you must be feeling very hurt right now.

Your WS story strikes a cord with me, I had a similar experience. The OM was very unstable, I ended our PA but the EA carried on for months because every time I tried to pull away he would try to commit suicide or he threatened to expose the A. He even threatened my children at one point. I didn't have the coping mechanisms necessary to push NC with him. I had dug myself a hole I couldn't climb out of and I was scared. The OM would text me constantly, all day every day. If I didn't text back quickly enough he would fly off the handle. I loathed him during those weeks but I was too messed up to deal with it properly.

None of this excuses anything, I was wrong and very weak. I am ashamed of how spineless I was. But I don't think it's uncommon for WS to feel like that, so your WH could well have sustained that amount of contact with the OW while genuinely feeling nothing but hatred for her. I certainly did.

We should admit that putting ourselves in the position for the affair, having the affair, and then talking to the AP to keep it from blowing up all come from the same place. Actually, they are all probably "the affair." I told myself that I had to appease AP. But you know what? I haven't talked to her since DDay. The ability to do that was there all of the time. I was just too whatever to do it, regardless of the good intentions. It is the same weakness. I don't want to give the impression that I or your WH were close to correct. It sounds like he understands that.

Completely agree with this.

Thanks everyone, I don't know what to think.

20 wrongs can I ask a question. Why are you so sure he wanted the sex? Every time I post someone says he must have wanted the sex, he must have enjoyed it, he must have finished etc.

I don't understand why. I can see how someone might find themselves in too deep and be too scared to say no for fear of consequences. Same as I can see awkward first time sex as being bad.

Why is it so impossible/unlikely. It comes up every time I post. I know there is practically a cheater's handbook but there are differences because people and situations are different.

Do I find it hard to believe. Sometimes yes, but it's 'usually', but not always, because people on here insist it's lies then my doubts crop up. Other than that I can see him panicking when faced with the reality of what he had done. He is a coward and will take the easy road every time if he is left to his own devices. He is very easily led. I have seen this many times, he can't say no without a massive effort and throw worry over me finding out and losing me into the mix and it seems likely to me. If he gets in a mess, he take the easiest way out.

Do I have doubts, of course I do.

Yes, he made the choice to say yes but haven't we all gone ahead and had sex and not really wanted it. Haven't we all had bad sex?

The guy I was with before H, I never fancied him. He rescued me from an abusive relationship at 17 and I felt I owed him. He wanted me and it made me feel worth something after years of being told no one else would ever want me. I was with him for 3 weeks. We had sex cos he wanted it and I was grateful to him. But every time my stomach would clench and I would want it over asap. I broke up with him very quickly cos I was not being fair with him. That night I met H.

So I would like to know why he had to have wanted the sex? Why couldn't he have just gone along with what she wanted. He did all the way through the affair.

He has admitted enjoying everything up to the sex, he says that was too much, too real.

I am not being funny 20wrongs, you're not the first person by a long shot that has been adamant he wanted it. I am just curious why every case has to be the same, he had sex, that's bad enough. Why did he have to want it?

I guess I am being really stupid cos I keep getting told this. He refuses to admit he wanted it though. He is very detailed on what happened and it sounds plausible.

[This message edited by olwen at 3:14 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)]

Acceptance sucks. It is particularly bad when your partner has TT and you don't know if you have the real picture. My H has been almost 100% consistent with his account of things since dday, but I still struggle. His actions and behavior and thinking don't make sense -- to me. It seems like the actions of a crazy person -- someone I don't know. Certainly not the man trying so hard to make things right.

And yet it was him, and that is what makes acceptance so damn hard. We have to reconcile, somehow, the unreconcilable.

One time when I was trying to make sense of my 3-year olds weird behavior to my therapist (he was randomly peeing in weird parts of the house), she said, you know "Sometimes kids just do crazy stuff." I think that is the same with people in affairs. I'd go so far as to say: It is the nature of people in affairs to do crazy, hurtful stuff. Stuff that doesn't make sense.

If I were married to your husband, I'd insist that he be in IC and is looking accurately and honestly at himself. While it could be that he is being as truthful as he is capable, that may not be enough for you. It sounds like he is trying to capture his sense of ambivalence about the situation, but in just biological terms, if he had intercourse with her, he "wanted" to. However, as our MC said, "the body has no morals." i.e. I do think you can be aroused/excited even if you have negative feelings about what you are doing.

Hope that helps.