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I think that's called "mentionitis," the inability to stop talking about someone because you have a crush on them. At the very least, it seems your XW had a crush on the man slut.

I guess this is really an opportunity to evaluate your relationship with your XW and decide what you want moving forward. If you want to be more explicit about your commitment to each other, and your love for her has truly been rekindled, then this is a chance to lay all the cards on the table. She needs to be honest with you about MS in order for that to happen.

she promised, on our own daughters and grandchild, that she has never had sex with Mr. MS

Like BtrydWife I find this troubling, but for a different reason - I think this could be an attempt to avoid telling you the whole truth. As in - I didn't have sex with Mr. MS, but sex in this statement = intercourse, and I did "fill in the blank" - have oral sex, make out in the alley behind the bar, kiss, etc. In other words, she could be obfuscating what happened by focusing on the one thing that DIDN'T happen.

I guess the fact that someone else could take her from me, makes me want to hold on to her even more. Oddly enough, sex has been even hotter now. The pictures in my mind of her with someone else fuels things up...kinda weird, no?

Around here, we call this hysterical bonding, or HB. It's seems to be a common response to infidelity, a period of intense emotional and sexual bonding often inspired by the desire to hold onto your WS or erase the other person for the body of your WS somehow. You also said:

our relationship after the divorce was purely sexual, no emotional needs met, she may have needed the emotional attention from me, which I admit was not there

but then indicate that:

We have told each other we love each other

When did this change? If you have only recently realized that this relationship is more than a purely sexual connection, then...well, I guess what I am trying to say is that only you can decide, based on what your relationship was with your XW at the time, whether this was an affair. I only say that because it seems from some of your posts that you are not sure if the boundaries of your relationship were clearly laid out, although the expectation of monogamy was clearly there for you. It was certainly dishonest, and therefore a betrayal. If you were in a committed relationship at the time, it was an affair.

Regardless, moving forward she needs to be honest with you and you both be clear about the nature of your relationship.

[This message edited by lost_in_toronto at 9:24 AM, February 28th (Friday)]

I have a question about this. But nothing accusatory, I just don't think I understand.

I asked her to keep that as such because if it were common knowledge that she and I were previously married, the gossip would have caught fire very quickly at my work, even if nothing had ever happened

So asking her to keep quiet, this happened before you thought she was involved with Mr MS?

What gossip would you have been worried about? From my view I would see two people who were married previously, and happen to still be in love. I guess I don't understand what is so juicy and scandalous about that. But maybe I've misunderstood.

Karma:

Many thanks for your explanation. I can understand where you are coming from. Just like back in high school you feel that since you gave her your varsity jacket, that she is yours.

However I would venture to guess that your ex-W believes that she owes you nothing since the D. She is probably feeling like she can play the field with whoever she wants.

If you want something more exclusive with her then simply tell her. Don't beat around the bush about this OM, JUST TELL HER.

.................Kali

Lost in toronto, your response is very thorough, thanks for obviously reading it with care. You are very insightful with your observations, and hit on a note I myself have been wondering about for the last few days. Just as the Hysterical Bonding seems to probably be happening here, the love we have been talking about also happened after the evidence started to accumulate. I was the first to bring this "L word" into the conversation with her. My emotional state at this time is still not 100% trustworthy, with ups and downs, etc., so I now realize that I really don't know, if the love we are talking about is real, or just another manifestation of the Hysterical Bonding.

Hopefully, with time, sorting this out will become a bit easier. Thanks.

BtraydWife, I can explain the issue with our previous marriage being kept quiet. I could fully justify this with more detail, but the specifics would give my identity away, if anyone I know were to read these postings. It has to do with the work relationship that exist between me and Mr. MS, and with the very extensive Slutworld track record he owns, that everyone at work knows about. Even the industry we work in, would narrow our identities down immensely. Nothing unusual or secretive about what we do for a living, except that it happens to be one of those traditioally well-paying careers most people would love to be in.

But the gossip regarding this subject matter, given my position, would inflict a very disruptive blow. I apologize for not being any more clear, but the reason for the secrecy is valid, in my view.

Oh ok. You have a position of status and need everything to stay on the up and up. Of course you don't want to give yourself away. I didn't realize, I'm sorry.

Just checking in, things settling down as far as the roller coaster goes.

I do have a question maybe someone out there can advise me on. There has yet to be any confession, no DDay as of yet. I am being patient, have not gone "psycho" on her at all, only respectful and watchfully waiting. I have tried printing out and giving her a few articles regarding affairs, and how disclosure is the first step towards reconciliation and such. She says the reading is eye-opening, but not applicable to her, since "nothing happened".

I wonder now if she will ever admit to this, if I keep trying, or what other options others have tried.

Thanks all.

Joseph's Letter in the Healing Library worked got the truth for me. Have you considered (if your gut is right and she is lying) if you still want a relationship with her...? If the answer is yes I'd tell her that if she wants a relationship with you - you need to start clean.

It took my WS months to come clean and then, only because the OW sent him an email that I read and it was obvious from the content I only had a fraction of the truth.

I asked him to think about truth and honesty, and if he thought that I deserved those from him. I made it clear that I didn't believe the version of the affair he had given me. I gave him a few days to consider and made it clear that whatever he told me I would treat as fact and if I ever found out he had lied we would be over because I would not tolerate dishonesty moving forward.

He told me everything a few days later and I've never had reason to doubt what he told me. I knew it was the truth because I knew him, and he doesn't lie easily or well. In my gut, I felt he wasn't lying anymore.

Trust your instincts and make sure she understands that you can't move forward with her when every instinct is telling you there is more to the story.

Good luck. It is hard to get the truth, but I think you'll know when you have it.

I agree that it depends on what you want out of this relationship with her. If you want anything serious or lasting she is going to have to come clean. Now if that's possible depends on what she wants from you and this is how you find out.

Have you read the 180? Just start pulling back from her and detaching. Don't contact her, don't reach out. No more little things you might have been doing for her. If she contacts you and wants to know what's up you say that you can't have a relationship with her because you feel she is keeping something from you.

What she says/does next will give you the answer of what she wants.

If however, you are cool with a casual companion on occasion, f buddy, then she has no reason to come clean for that. If that's the case I think you are going to have to just deal with knowing she won't be honest with you.

So you decide what you want, then you find out what she wants by removing yourself from her life.

Take2, LostinToronto, and Betraydwife, thanks all for the comments and suggestions, sure soothes all this confusion and eases the turmoil for me. Will follow up and post.

OK...about three weeks ago we had the first face to face confrontation regarding the mountain of circumstantial evidence I had, regarding her secrecy, going out with the girls and the "guy", etc etc. Of course, that brought about nothing but denial.

She acknowledged and apologized for the lies, saying she was just trying to avoid upsetting me, but that NOTHING was going on, she didn't "sleep" with this guy. She was actually indignant and emotional because I was eluding to the fact that she was unfaithful.

We haven't discussed this further, I was waiting for her to bring up more, but of course that did not happen.

I just recently gave her a printout of one of the article from the Healing Library, regarding complete disclosure. She read it within the last few days, and today I asked her what she thought of the article. She said some things were very interesting, but we couldn't talk at the time, I was dropping her off at work. I did tell her I would call her tonight to talk about this, and she said ok.

I am an hour or so from calling her, and my mind is all over the place. I have typed up questions for her, assuming she will again deny and deny. I don't know if I am approaching this the right way, my mind is not at its best right now.

Any last minute ideas from anyone? Need direction.

Getting answers from some WS is about the hardest thing there is to do.

Mostly, you have to make them feel safe to be totally honest. That means dont blow up, just be calm. No threats of any kind like telling everyone or divorce or whatever.

Make them feel like they can talk openly and many times they will.

Thanks Craig, appreciate your response.

I still believe if you think she's not being honest you have to pull back from her and do the 180.

Right now she has no reason to come clean so she won't. It might help some WSs if they feel less threatened or confronted but even if you make it the most understanding and comforting place for her to be honest with you, that does not mean she'll open up. That's called nice-ing her back and it doesn't work. If anything that gets you trickle truth.

As long as the life the two of you share doesn't change-she won't feel a need to be honest, because she doesn't have to be. There is no cost to her continuing to lie and there is a cost to being honest. I don't believe that cost has anything to do with you setting a comfortable mood for a discussion.

Stop calling her, stop seeing her, stop printing things for her to read, find something else to do. You don't live together so you don't even have to do a bunch of the things in the 180 because not calling her or seeing her removes those things from happening.

You are making a classic mistake and it's not going to work. If anything you will steel her resolve to not disclose.

Read the 180 and put it into action.

instantkarma, how did the talk go last night?

Have you thought about a polygraph? If she has nothing to hide then she would have no reason to object.

Phewww! No confession, which was expected. We talked for about 90 minutes, and again she expressed regret for the lies. I was honest about how I have been handling this, the emotional gut-wrench, the efforts to continue with the day-to-day stuff, the effort to put on the "normal" face when things like work and other interactions have to take place, while inside I feel like I just drank a gallon of acid. I was trying to push her into admitting, no consequences, just an act of working things out. She says she understands and feels bad herself, seems remorseful about making me feel like this, but has not budged from the "nothing is going on" stance.

Details I ask her, about specific dates, calls, etc. still evoke nothing, other than "that's nothing but circumstantial, unfortunate, false evidence, coincidences that paint the wrong picture". She claims to be an innocent suspect that is wrongfully accused of something awful that never took place. It got to the point where she started to claim she was feeling like a victim herself, since she is an "innocent person herself". I did get drawn into that argument (possibly to my detriment), and told her the victim in all this was me, victim of deception, lies, and basically being a trustful fool for a year or more. She did accept that. She says she is sorry her "non-malicious lies" has caused so much pain.

Basically she says she had no affair, but admits fault for being a lying, deceptive partner. She says she will try to analyse what made her lie about going out and include this guy, although there was no "intentional goal of getting together with him, he is not even a friend, just an acquaintance".

She admits that perhaps there was a newfound excitement in starting to go out again, in finding new friends, and would like to really look within herself, to see what caused her to do this.

Hearing all this, I just don't know if I'm dealing with a woman who is trying to innocently have the last few good times in her life, to go out to the clubs, listen to a live band, or having a nice dinner, OR if this is an Olympic-class bullshitter.

Today she texted me that she has gotten an appointment for counseling for herself, regarding her also-agonizing feelings of hurting me so thoughtlessly. I have to wonder, is she trying to actually explore that, or is she trying to get guidance on how to finally come clean?

The advice and questions I got from the above posts are very welcome, ESPECIALLY BetrayedWife, hopefully I can hear from others.

All of this just left me in the same status I was in: a bunch doubt, of undeniable circumstantial evidence, of facing never-ending "I can't remember" answers, and the still pervasive inclination to think something is going on, that I have yet to learn much more about.

We have scheduled (and I have paid for) a mini vacation to get out of town for a couple of days on the weekend of the 15th of March. A casino concert and overnight hotel stay. I am planning to take her there still, and then start the 180 right after. She may offer something before that date, I just don't know.

During our phone conversation last night, I suggested that maybe she would feel more comfortable writing out her thoughts, as opposed to talking, on all that has happened. She told me just a few minutes ago that writing all this has helped her out, and she will give me a four-page letter within a day or two.

Still in limbo, confused, don't know what is going on.......

I'm sorry you didn't get what you were searching for in the discussions. I'm interested in hearing the gist of her letter after you process it. It's great that she agreed to start therapy. Maybe that will lead to something, maybe not. Have a good trip and keep us updated!

At least that is out in the open. I don't really liked she turned into the poor me victim stuff. And I have found that coincidences are usually lies.

My wife had a ton of odd coincidences and to this day she maintains that is what they were. I dont believe.

Did you ask her point blank questions like what was she doing with this guy after working hours in his place.

Direct factual questions should get direct factual answers. But more times than not, they end up blameshifting and the poor me and the changing of the topic.

Writing is always great. Writing helps a person think, and it can clarify things in the mind. Writing also helps the memory recall things.