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Rather, it is accepting that with all the key elements in place, the stage was set for the event to happen. It is accepting that it happened. It is removing from your mind a 'coulda, woulda, shoulda' mentality, NOT to give excuse, but to get you to accept that this is your reality.

That I can accept. WRT SI, it's helpful for both WS and BS to stay away from 'coulda, woulda, shoulda' thinking. It's also important to stay away from that sort of thinking in general.

Thanks for the explanations.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:36 AM, March 29th (Saturday)]

I do believe that this can be used in a bastardized way (by both the BS and the WS) in an attempt to relieve a WS of responsibility but the complete idea actually forces the notion that is was solely their responsibility.

A WS who is not being 100% honest about the true reasons behind the As could try to use this as a cop out but that's exactly opposite of what it means.

However, the danger this will be twisted into justification remains for WSs. And I agree it has no place being brought up around WSs who are not very far ahead in their healing. I understand the concern and the fear.

This doesn't say they had no other choice. It says the total of all the choices they made was an A. It doesn't remove responsibility. It assigns it completely to them.

My WH at any time before his As knew he felt he couldn't express his anger. Everyday he choose to NOT address and resolve this issue. That was one of his bad choices that contributed to him having an A. There are a million others and the result of all those unhealthy choices was his As. He himself brought the As to fruition through his choices.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 12:01 PM, March 29th (Saturday)]

My concern with this theory for me, is the sad realisation that comes with acceptance; this could have been me, it could be me - ANYONE could have an affair with the right circumstances.

Unless their morals are so strong that they would NOT be able to lie, to cross the unquestionable line of infidelity (as opposed to the questionable lines of 'friendship' etc.).

So, I think I would have fallen into the category of being unable to betray my convictions before, but I feel so unsure now. If, as Chico said here about his beliefs (which make a lot of sense to me), that we are all living and deciding based on our past experiences etc, then I am doomed by my H's actions.

Being betrayed as I have, having never experienced a betrayal like this before, I am changed. This experience has changed me. I have to fight for happiness now. I have to convince myself of every little life decision, and work so so hard to keep my mind on the present.

How can I radically accept the past, but not also radically accept the future? How can I be a sound, moral person, but believe that this shit 'just happens'. I know it's something that I need to do, but the thought of it has just felt like, well, accepting that there's nothing good in this world. That I cannot expect healthy decisions from myself or others.

It's a constant debate in my head; understanding that disappointment and mistakes are in my future and how to deal with them, while creating a safe life to live in where reasonable agreements and decisions are honoured and worked on.

Thanks for this thread, fascinating stuff to read.

Great exploration, eachdayisavictory. I have thought the same. As I learn more about human behavior I struggled with the realization that we have more in common with people whose behavior disgust us. Lots of research supports this.

What I realized between me and my WS is that I am not capable. It doesn't make me a better person, just a different one. I have my own destructive and damaging tendencies. Due to past experiences we developed different strategies for "being." Mine is a vulnerable take on interactions with others with loose boundaries surrounding personal information, but strict boundaries with perceived romantic advances. I also do not have the capacity to compartmentalize much, so I protect myself by not doing things I can't live with. I just can't keep secrets, even from myself. And fully aware that I couldn't live with having an A, not could I keep myself from feeling the shame and guilt in my everyday life. Her past required compartmentalization to survive childhood FOO issues. Because of that, she was simply capable. At the same time incapable of making herself vulnerable to her own needs that require others to fulfill. Because of how our lives were "set up" she was capable of infidelity and I was not.

In the end it isn't meant to excuse damaging acts. It's a way to understand how they happened to remove the tendency to live in the past by wishing something different happened. For lots of reasons it happened as it did.

I disagree that WSs early on should not be introduced to this concept, though careful presentation of it is necessary. I think it can be used to remove judgement from what happened without culpability. It allows both partners to view it from outside the act and constructively focus on what needs to happen to heal and move forward. The WS needs to realize that they did it and it was wrong. To accept that it happened as a result of so many factors in their life at the point they made the decision might help then to open up to exploring ways to help heal themselves, their BS and the relationship. By not recognizing the other factors they are susceptible to beating themselves up to the point of lowering their self esteem and not feeling that they can be effective at doing what needs to be done to address the consequences and the patterns that led to their horrible choice. It is when they are in this state, I think, that they damage the BS more.

And yes, we don't want to believe that so many other factors interfere with our "will." However, we are so susceptible to persuasion and suggestion that often times we find ourselves victim to decisions or behaviors that define us differently than we would like. I tend to see us living our lives and making decisions somewhere between free will and destiny/fate. Everything we do is influenced by our past, our community, our families, our cultures, our education, our financial situation, and more, along with how all these things interact. Could our WSs made a different decision? Maybe. But they didn't. At the time their decision was made it was obviously believed by them to be the best one (easiest, most appealing, most desired, whatever) they could make, or they would have made a different one.

Radical acceptance us simply a strategy for moving forward. As with all strategies it can be used in the spirit in which it was intended, or bastardized for personal gain. It has helped me.

This thread is phenomenal for exploring the concept. I love all the contributions, thoughts, challenges and ideas shared with regard to it. Thanks for the post!

And I love this quote for moving forward...

"If you are depressed, you are living in the past. If you are anxious, you are living in the future. If you are at peace, you are living in the present." Lao Tzu

people pleaser, your wisdom is astounding me. I'm so sad for why you are here, but I am so glad that you are here to share your thoughts and that you post often.

Honestly, I had a nap since I last posted, because it felt so heavy and sad. I awoke feeling a little better, and a little more willing to consider how radical acceptance could work for me. Funny what time does, even a little bit.

I think that people pleaser hit several key points for me when she said

Because of how our lives were "set up" she was capable of infidelity and I was not.

At first I thought, well, I buried sexual abuse for 25 years, so I can compartmentalize and still feel certain that I could NOT have an affair. Then I realized that I was really NOT able to keep that in a compartment. It actually stunted me sexually for my entire adult life until the bomb of the affair blew it out into the open for me. We were raised to express ourselves and support each other and be emotional, my partner was raised with NO emotional expression considered acceptable, with silence, and with a phobic mother who anxiously protected them from as much human interaction outside of her immediate family as possible.

Then there was this;

I disagree that WSs early on should not be introduced to this concept, though careful presentation of it is necessary.

I understand this perspective, but I immediately thought about the first book we bought after dday, which was focused on mindfulness and staying in the present. We soon after bought 'after the affair', and as we read it and discussed it, eventually my H said that he was relieved to be reading it instead of the 'mindfulness' one because he felt like that book was telling him that the only moment that mattered was the present and that meant that he should do whatever he wants to do to feel happy (like go be with the OW - shit, kills me to even write about this again). So, I'm not sure what I think about that.

And this gave me some new perspective;

At the time their decision was made it was obviously believed by them to be the best one (easiest, most appealing, most desired, whatever) they could make, or they would have made a different one.

My partner does not have the gift of words. He described the sensation for about a year (or more) of his affair as, 'successful'. He said that he genuinely believed he had found a way to fix everyone's lives. He took joy in his AP and could leave me alone regarding sexual intimacy, he could keep his family together and he felt like HE was the one who had to buck-up and find the energy to balance it all.

I hated him for those words for a long time. They defeated me, made me lose faith in his character, and question his intelligence (genuinely). I have come to terms with them in a number of different ways, but what you say here reminds me of another way to think about those justifications of his.

So, pretty sure I'm sucking out at this 'radical acceptance' thing. Sounds more like I'm on the 'trickle into maybe kinda with a lot of pushing acceptance' train. Hee hee.

Thank you. This is very helpful. This is an approach I am using for the healing and reconciliation with my BS. It does not relieve me of my responsibility but allows me the safe space to look at what I have done and realize what led to my decisions and then helps me decide how to put things in balance which is what I understand reconciliation to be. I find that I must make this happen all the time and at every moment or opportunity that is possible. It also helps me develop more empathy for my BS. I am able to take responsibility for what I have done and also what I need to do to be a more decent and happier person so my BS can accept me back as a partner she can respect and be happy with.

The practice of Radical Acceptance is very much in the spirit of the great prayer for serenity that 12 step programs have:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference."

Thank you again.

Im so glad this is helpful to people! And thanks for the kind words.

EAIAV, I think we are in similar positions with regard to our past, our present and how our WSs existed in our relationships. Mine said something very similar about finding a way to get her needs met that required her to live with the burden of what she did rather than hurting me by revealing it. Ultimately, she was practicing what she was taught (in opposition to what I was taught) to keep her emotions to herself and not ask anyone for help or to meet her needs.

I think that grains reply illustrated what I was saying about introducing the concept to a WS early on. I'm in favor of mindfulness as a practice, and it accompanies radical acceptance very well. However, one can't be in the present without resolving issues from the past that negatively affect the present. By using radical acceptance as a tool to explore the factors leading to the past decision, we are in a safer emotional space to explore what needs to happen in the present for a better future. While as a BS we are radically accepting the decision of the WS, we need the WS to radically accept our reactions and responses to the pain. I was definitely emotionally and verbally abusive upon discovery. Even if I wasn't, the consequences of her actions are the pain and mistrust. Again, that just is. It exists. We can't change what is any more than they can change what was. Is we recognize both, then we are both in a better and safer place to explore what needs to happen to heal in the present. I will have visible pain as a BS that will cause a reaction of shame and guilt, even self-directed anger in my WS. If we recognize this instead of wishing it away, we can work as a team instead of fighting what we can't change. It sucks. It's painful for both of us. But I would rather be in pain together with compassion for each other than continuing to argue about what should have happened or what should not be. It just is. And we just have to get through it together. And we will make that choice so many times a day for a while.

Okay, thought about this Radical Acceptance and read some on Tara Brach's website and a couple of articles in Psychology Today.

From what I have read, I have not interpreted (haven't read the book, so I know I am not fully knowledgable on the subject) Radical Acceptance to mean

It is recognizing that it did happen and it happened in the way it was meant to happen because if all the factors influencing it at that time.

but instead,

It's the same type of surrender the Buddhists call "radical acceptance." Radical acceptance is accepting what is on a deep level without judgment - not saying it's right or wrong but just that it is.

To me that simply means "it happened". Not that it was meant to happen in that way, but it did happen that way.

Radical acceptance from my understanding would be for the person who was traumatized, not for the traumatizer. The person doing the traumatizing doesn't get to say "I accept that I caused pain to someone else because of all my past experiences I had no choice but to do this. I accept that." No, it is for the victims of trauma to be able to say "I accept the pain/trauma that was caused to me because that is the reality. I had no choice and it happened and I must accept it, no matter that it is unfair."

Yes, I have radically accepted what my FWH has done. I just called it letting go of trying to get my FWH to unfuck the donkey. Not. Gonna. Happen.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/real-healing/201101/radical-acceptance

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pieces-mind/201207/radical-acceptance

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:46 PM, March 29th (Saturday)]

The person doing the traumatizing doesn't get to say "I accept that I caused pain to someone else because of all my past experiences I had no choice but to do this. I accept that."

For me when I was the traumatizer it was more of a " Holy Shit!!!, this is who I have become. This is not who I was meant to be. How do I get back to who i was supposed to be?"

At the time their decision was made it was obviously believed by them to be the best one (easiest, most appealing, most desired, whatever) they could make, or they would have made a different one.

Yes, of course, they made the decision to cheat because they wanted to. Simple. That is the "why" of my FWH's affair. He was selfish and he wanted to. Of course he thought it was the best decision FOR HIM. He wasn't thinking about anyone else, although I am sure, many have tried to talk themselves into they were "fucking the AP" to keep our family together. Gee, thanks for taking one for the family. I know it must have been tough.

Thank you sister milkshake. I always feel insecure when I dont agree with the majority of posters on a thread but you put it in a way I understand. You are aloe to my sunburn today!

I accept something very unfair and unjust happened to me. There is no way I can ever accept that a second affair was something that was the only choice he could make.

I accept I had many other options available to me than An affair and I chose poorly. With every lie, email, phone call..,,

I accept we are not making these kinds of choices anymore.

what is DBT?

Dialectical Behavioral Therapy

Radical Acceptance (the handout I got from therapy):

- Freedom from suffering requires acceptance. Let go of fighting reality.

- Deciding to tolerate the moment is acceptance.

- Acceptance is acknowledging what is.

- To accept something is not the same as judging it good.

So like Sister Milkshake said, it's accepting that it happened. It doesn't mean assigning a value to it. It doesn't mean liking or OKing it. It means acknowledging that what happened is reality.

Accepting that at that time, given all the circumstances including what one was feeling, thinking, and perceiving as it interacts with past experiences led to a decision, choice or action that was the only option for them at that time.

The way I move forward is by learning.

The way I learn is by analyzing my mistakes.

I look at a choice I made and think: how could I have done this differently.

If I say to myself: there is no way I could have done this differently, then I will accept that I will repeat this over and over.

I am with accepting that what happened has happened and there's no changing that. That is a great attitude. I just don't see how it's possible to learn from erroneous judgements without acknowledging that it was not, in fact, the only way.

eta:

To me that simply means "it happened". Not that it was meant to happen in that way, but it did happen that way.

Well, I can get behind that. Or in front of it. Or wherever the acceptable position is.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:06 PM, March 29th (Saturday)]

Accepting that at that time, given all the circumstances including what one was feeling, thinking, and perceiving as it interacts with past experiences led to a decision, choice or action that was the only option for them at that time.

I think if I got to this point I would see it as a failure.

Of course there were circumstances that made WH vulnerable to his affairs but there was always a choice not to unzip his trousers 100s of times. This for me seems to be WH thinking on D day - like he was a victim. I get radical acceptance if you were a survivor of abuse and killed your abuser - but in the case of an affair it just seems like an opportunity for a WS to justify their actions, blameshift and deny responsibility - heck it is just what I don't want.

I think as a group, the pieces so many of you offer about acceptance has drastically affected me (in a good way).

I agree with the posters who challenged that there was 'no other choice'. Of course there was. I think I was trying to convince myself of this. It is part of my fruitless constant effort to figure out the classic 'how could he, the last person on earth I would ever imagine to engage in betrayal, how could he actually do this?'

Blake steele said once that he tries to think 'how could I have done certain things to my spouse' about non A related issues, and that's been helpful for me to think about too.

To me, sister milkshake's words sum up what I'm taking from this thread today;

To me that simply means "it happened". Not that it was meant to happen in that way, but it did happen that way.

What else can we do? Live a life burrowing in the 'hows' and 'what ifs' and losing sight of the world around us, or accepting. Simply accepting.

Fuck, what if I can't.

It is what it is...

I believe my fWH and I have both gained some important perspectve and insight about each other by spending some time in "shoulda, coulda, woulda" land. Its important not to get stuck there.

Radical acceptance makes sense but I don't believe it should happen right away. I also understand it more as sistermilkshake explains it.

My fWH is an extremely intelligent mature man who knew exactly what he was doing. It was premeditated and he seeked it on craigslist. There was no perfect storm that made it impossible for him to choose otherwise. He used poor judgment and made the biggest mistake of his life to that point. He is 100% responsible for setting it all in motion. I radically accept this but it still leaves me with a poor taste in my mouth.

[This message edited by whattheh at 12:03 PM, March 30th (Sunday)]

I think some people are missing that radical acceptance is not about that there was no other choice. That is was meant to be. It is not about the CHOICE. Of course WS have the choice.

What radical acceptance is saying is that by YOU spending time in the "Why didn't you choose me?" "Why was she/he so special?" "Why wasn't I enough?" stage, you are actually hurting YOURSELF.

^^This has been said so many different ways on here. You often hear people say that NO EXPLANATION will make sense to a BS. And it is true. Nothing does.

It is, what it is. Period.

Radical Acceptance is saying to accept that as your reality. Your reality is that your WS did this with all of the events as they were.

Accept it.

You can spend time being miserable thinking why me or you can get out of the pity party and start living life with this new reality.

Yes it sucks. But it sucks for someone who loses a child, someone who is diagnosed with cancer, someone who loses a limb, someone whose house burns down, someone who has a loved one murdered. All of these things suck. All of them have could, woulda, shoulda attached to it.

All Radical Acceptance is saying is that you can wallow in the 'what ifs' all day long. And you would be justified to do so. But doing so hurts YOU.

Radical acceptance is saying to accept your reality. Not excuse your WS's behavior.

And you know what… I don't think this can happen the day after dday. It takes time to get to acceptance. And all of us spend time in the anger, coulda, woulda, shoulda stage. To me, radical acceptance is a tool for those who ARE STUCK THERE. You can tell who they are. And I can say that I was stuck there myself for a long while.

I didn't use this technique. Did not know it existed. But I wish I had. I do know that while I was stuck there in the 'poor me' syndrome, I was a negative person. Angry, bitter and probably not much fun to be around.

I received a few much needed 2x4's on here. I didn't like how I felt. I worked hard to make changes for me. And while I know I would not have made the choices my WH made, it IS my reality. Can't wish it away, can't change it. What choice do I have then? I can only accept it and be a better, happier person with or without him. or live angry and bitter. I'm choosing happiness. I will not give his actions that much control over my happiness.

Broken smile- I think it takes a while to get to the radical acceptance. Or just plain acceptance.

I accept that what happened was unfair and unjust and didn't need to happen but it did.

However, I cannot yet accept staying with someone who did this...

I mean, you have to accept it whether staying or leaving.

It may be easier to say to oneself- it happened and it was unacceptable to treat me like that so I'm outta here...

Those who stay I think have a harder time with it...

I agree, Rachel.

It does take awhile to get to acceptance. That is why it is often listed as the last step in the Grieving Cycle. Acceptance is not easy.

I did say this in my post above.

I don't think this can happen the day after dday. It takes time to get to acceptance. And all of us spend time in the anger, coulda, woulda, shoulda stage. To me, radical acceptance is a tool for those who ARE STUCK THERE. You can tell who they are. And I can say that I was stuck there myself for a long while.

Gently,

RachelC… I remember your posts. If I remember correctly, you were strongly believing that this could have been a deal breaker for you. And you still seem to be in the angry stage. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think anyone in the anger stage CAN accept.

I also think one has to feel the anger, process it, get it out over and over and over again before they CAN accept.

Radical acceptance though for me, is for those stuck in anger. I was there. I was stuck. To me, it is not for those still processing the anger, it's for those stuck in it. It is a fine line of delineation.

I have no idea if you are stuck or if you are still processing. I don't even know if it really is a deal breaker for you. I am speaking generally.

All I know is that when a few SI'ers called me out on being stuck, I was pissed off for awhile. I am only trying to say, if anyone is reading this, and you are stuck, this might be something to consider and to try.

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 1:33 PM, March 30th (Sunday)]

I don't think I'm stuck in anger and I do realize you made the time point in your post. I think Im just seeing if things will get better as time passes and they have.

I think it's ok to be in a relationship for whatever reasons we deem important. He'll never have 100% of me because of his second affair. But 90% might be good enough for both of us.