SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Disclaimer: I'm very new to the process of talking about the A at all. And while I've been ending things on my own for months already, I reached out here because what I'm doing isn't working & I need help through the process. Feel free to be harsh with me. Call me on my bullshit. But please understand that I just learned most of this A terminology within the past 24 hours. I figure things out by talking through. That may come off as trying to justify my way out, but that is not the intent; it is done to better understand.

The question:

There's tremendous advocacy for NC at SI. I do agree with most aspects of NC--I cut trips from my routine that would have otherwise facilitated contact, I don't start conversations with AP, I've purged him from life in any significant way. But it's not totally NC. When AP is working through something or starting a new experience or whatever, I'll engage in chat, be a sounding board. And since we're still connected on FB, he sees my status updates & activity in groups, and I see his.

I read HUFI's thread re: indifference: http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=519532

When I relapsed re: my version of NC with AP last weekend, I was initiating "real" conversation; breaking my own boundaries. During that conversation, something was said that had the effect of poking my long-buried feelings with a stick, and when it all came rushing back to the surface, I realized I'd simply compartmentalized, not created a true state of indifference.

Demonizing AP is easy. He has many faults. I've never romanticized AP, so I, in effect, demonized him even while continuing the EA/PA.

The indifference is the tricky part.

I know that some readers might question the importance of creating indifference. Why can’t I moon over the AP? What’s wrong with thinking of them again and again?

The danger exists that you never let go. The danger is that you sublimate the feelings, you compartmentalize them. You hide them into your subconscious. You take those feelings into your dreams and you create your fantasy relationship there. You get good at creating surface indifference. Hell, you can get so good at hiding the magnitude of your feelings that you can deny them to yourself. But you know what? Buried and unresolved feelings have a tendency to pop up to the surface sooner than later and create even bigger problems. Hell, it’s why I’m here.

Here's my fear with NC: When I maintain minimal contact, such as keeping him as a FB friend, I get the "slap in the face" daily reminder that AP doesn't care about me. When something is going on in my life, AP doesn't ask about it. AP never checks in on me. AP is never there for me. If I go complete NC, I think I may romanticize that aspect of things, convince myself that AP would care if given the option and/or if variables change in his world. In fact, I'm almost certain that I will.

That's the last step of NC for me--cutting the FB/txt ties. Severing access. I feel like I need to be reminded that he's a selfish ass. How can I do that without maintaining those ties?

Splitintwo: Here's my fear with NC: When I maintain minimal contact, such as keeping him as a FB friend, I get the "slap in the face" daily reminder that AP doesn't care about me. When something is going on in my life, AP doesn't ask about it. AP never checks in on me. AP is never there for me. If I go complete NC, I think I may romanticize that aspect of things, convince myself that AP would care if given the option and/or if variables change in his world. In fact, I'm almost certain that I will.

Are you saying you like getting reminded about how little he cares about you? That seems messed up! What is the draw in that dynamic? Is it a game to you to get him to care again? To see what type of facebook post will draw him back to you? Cuz you seem to be saying that if you keep yourself in his face, you know he won't care for you, but if you remove yourself from his life, you fear he will miss something you post that would ultimately bring him back to you.

It's like you are putting everything on the AP's shoulders to make certain you don't break NC. If he continues to ignore you, good cuz it wasn't meant to be. but, if something you post brings him back to you, then surely that must mean it was meant to be. Head games.

Take back your power. Reread what you've written. You say you know he does not care about you. Why would you want to continue to devalue yourself for this person?

You are a strong, caring, vibrant woman that deserves love. What you are describing in your A is not love. Learn to love yourself. The rest will fall into place.

I feel like I need to be reminded that he's a selfish ass.

Tape the words, "He's a selfish ass!" to your computer screen.

Also tape the words, "I will love myself today!"

Hi Splitintwo,

First I just want to say you are very brave to post your story. The advice given on SI has helped me so much (I have lurked, but rarely posted) and I'm sure it will do the same for you. I ended a 1+year EA/PA in Feb and our situations sound similar, no confessing, still love your H/kids/married life, frequent 'break ups' with AP only to return again etc.

I also have the FB tie and my therapist said we can use it like a barameter to see where I am at with letting go. You're getting hits of being mad when you see his updates, but that really isn't getting you closer to indifference. I suspect you might occasionally post some things on your page mostly for his benefit? Maybe a first step could be to change his status to 'acquaintance' so that at least he is not getting notifications from you? Slowly you will not want to see his anymore either.

You sound like you are at the point where you are having arguments and problems with him just like an old married couple. I'm guessing having to 'work' on that relationship was the exact opposite of how it started and why you entered into it in the first place. It's a good time to walk away from the A before any(more) real damage occurs in the marriage that you have decided is important enough to protect. On your last post the reply regarding how your AP is likely just doing everything he can to get back to a PA is probably very true. Try to see him in that light.

Good luck, I'm rooting for you!

If I go complete NC, I think I may romanticize that aspect of things, convince myself that AP would care if given the option and/or if variables change in his world. In fact, I'm almost certain that I will.

That would be called withdrawal. It's part of the

process. Yes you will miss him. Yes you will crave some sort of connection with him. What you are doing right now is called getting a fix or having a crutch so you don't have to go through withdrawal.

It's no different than a drug addict needing and getting a fix from their drug of choice. Even if they are not fond of that drug....they are still drawn to it.Getting off that drug is painful,but the outcome is well worth it. I and many others can attest to that.

NC will be hard and devastating, but it is necessary for complete healing.

Are you saying you like getting reminded about how little he cares about you? That seems messed up! What is the draw in that dynamic? Is it a game to you to get him to care again? To see what type of facebook post will draw him back to you? Cuz you seem to be saying that if you keep yourself in his face, you know he won't care for you, but if you remove yourself from his life, you fear he will miss something you post that would ultimately bring him back to you.

I know this sounds messed up. And it is. To explain, not justify: When our relationship changed from friendship to EA, it screwed up everything in the friendship. He has issues with emotional connection, so forming one with me caused him to withdraw. He also has other issues (no M or other relationship, just things he's working through). Anyway, it created a negative feedback loop where his silence made things worse. That gets interspersed with periods of him snapping back into "normal." We've been trying to get to some state of closure for well over a year, and to be honest, I think my statements along the NC line trigger a temporary reset in AP & cause him to engage.

I say he doesn't care, but that's not accurate. I know he does in his way. It's more accurate to say that he doesn't show he cares about me in the ways that I need him to--He doesn't check in on me, doesn't pick up on the need to ask questions when I mention something to him that *should trigger a response since he knows it's an issue for me, etc. It's benign neglect; essentially, not being a good friend.

I'm not using FB to try to trigger him to talk to me, or trap him, or whatever. But I think my fear is that if I quit seeing his statuses on FB, then I'll romanticize things--"Oh, maybe he's finally worked through whatever, and now we can talk like normal."--that kind of whatnot. But that reminder of "this doesn't matter enough for him to make it matter, to talk, to whatever," helps maintain distance.

And I hate that I'm not allowed to call it a friendship, because that's what it was before everything went sideways. Anyway, this isn't about fixing my relationship with AP. At no point during the A did either of us want to make this a "real" relationship. Right now, I'm just trying to find my way out of the destruction that I brought on myself with the A, and that involves making myself indifferent to AP.

I also have the FB tie and my therapist said we can use it like a barameter to see where I am at with letting go. You're getting hits of being mad when you see his updates, but that really isn't getting you closer to indifference. I suspect you might occasionally post some things on your page mostly for his benefit? Maybe a first step could be to change his status to 'acquaintance' so that at least he is not getting notifications from you? Slowly you will not want to see his anymore either.

I like this idea--changing his status on there & letting him drift out. That could work well. And it does give me a good read on how I do with things. For instance, when I notice that he's off arguing stupid political things in a FB group when we'd normally chat, it helps. I don't think, "Hey, he's online, let's start this up again." I think, "Hey, I can see that he doesn't prioritize our conversation anymore." And then I process that, from the initial kick in the gut to "OK, this is our reality. Live it. Learn it."

And yes, it is like an old married couple, which is so ridiculous. I hate it. I hate that I allowed myself to get emotionally invested in someone other than BH. I hate that I was incapable of saying, "this is stupid, walk away now & don't think twice" when everything went sideways. But I want to say that now. And I'm working to get there.

splitintwo - And while I've been ending things on my own for months already, I reached out here because what I'm doing isn't working & I need help through the process ... There's tremendous advocacy for NC at SI. I do agree with most aspects of NC ... But it's not totally NC.

not totally NC is somewhat similar to being a little bit pregnant. The truth is that NC means No Contact. Its that simple. You can't phone or chat or text. You change your phone number, quit Face Book, cancel your classmates subscription, put post it notes on the mirror. Its that simple.

I remember that when I quit smoking (2 pk a day smoker), a big part of it was changing the habits that supported the smoking. For instance, upon waking up, I reached for my smokes, went to bathroom, sat down and lighted up. Picked up coffee and lit up a smoke. Got in car, lit up smoke. So, when I quit, I would go downstairs first to start coffee machine and then use downstairs bathroom, when I had my morning drink, I switched to tea and had it standing up at the kitchen counter. When I got into the car, I reached to turn up the volume on the audio book instead.

Enforcing NC is the same. You write down the details of each time you feel tempted. What is happening, what are you thinking of, what made you want to break NC, what emotions are you feeling at the time. After a period of time, you can see a pattern forming. That is when you can start taking steps to reduce or eliminate the triggers. That's when you can use positive feedback to support your commitment to NC. Give yourself rewards such as a fancy coffee for the drive home from work when you resisted the temptation to break NC.

splitintwo - I read HUFI's thread re: indifference ... I realized I'd simply compartmentalized, not created a true state of indifference.

NC is not just physical contact in the real world. Its also mental contact. Relieving the fantasy of the affair is breaking emotional indifference. Indulging in the mental masturbation is breaking NC at a certain level. While there are some WS's who threw their AP under the bus on day one and never looked back, there are others here, including myself, who struggled with indifference. I think long term EA's have the hardest time. But I don't think it can be done while still maintaining contact with the AP. And even after full NC, don't expect to find indifference in a day or two either.

splitintwo - That's the last step of NC for me--cutting the FB/txt ties. Severing access. I feel like I need to be reminded that he's a selfish ass. How can I do that without maintaining those ties?

sunnyrain gave you great advice with the suggestion that you tape the words, "He's a selfish ass!" to your computer screen. I put the following text on my screensaver after my D-day.

I am married.

I cheated.

I know that I love my wife.

I have boundaries now.

I must commit to her everyday.

I must tell her that.

No exceptions.

I got a ring made up, inscribed with some words from a wise SI veteran (DECIDE. CHOOSE. COMMIT. PERIOD)to remind me of my decision. I created graphics and stuck them on my bathroom wall.

How you do it is up to you. But cutting the ties completely is the only way to start creating indifference.

splitintwo - And I hate that I'm not allowed to call it a friendship, because that's what it was before everything went sideways.

Gently said, it was not a friendship before it went sideways. It was an illicit affair with someone outside of your marriage. As mentioned before in one of my earlier replies, calling it friendship is minimizing the reality and continues to perpetrate the fantasy. It was an affair, even if sex was not part of it.

HUFI

Wisdom from Gamine - Make a decision and discipline yourself not to waver. Don't be someone who stands for nothing. Stand for what you decide and back it with the full force of your character and conviction. DECIDE. CHOOSE. COMMIT. PERIOD.

HUFI--Gently said, it was not a friendship before it went sideways. It was an illicit affair with someone outside of your marriage. As mentioned before in one of my earlier replies, calling it friendship is minimizing the reality and continues to perpetrate the fantasy. It was an affair, even if sex was not part of it.

T/J--Will you please help me understand this aspect? From my POV, it was a friendship. Truly. You could put any adult of any gender and any age into the slot that my A originally filled, and it would be a friendship. We talked about everything & nothing...lots of nothing...music, politics, whatever. In my mind, it was no different than if I had reconnected with one of my female friends from back in the day. There was a core group of us that had an easy time with conversation. AP was part of that group.

Yes, there was a shift. There was a shift from when we treated this just like two people who got back in touch after years. We played music & chatted while I was in a bout of insomnia since he also happened to be up. We were literally just bored when we reconnected & since we knew each other 15+ years before, it was easy to just start talking. Then the nature of the conversation changed, the reliance on the conversation changed, my attachment to the conversation changed, all that. But in the beginning, we were friends. It's not about romanticizing things. I feel like I'm lying to myself by denying that aspect. It was real and valid.

Had it began with a female from that group, would that friendship also be out of bounds? Obviously it'd end the sex progression given that I'm straight. But I can see myself coming to significantly value a female friendship that formed in the same way--two people who once knew each other killing time in the wee hours.

You answered your own question. If it was a female friend you wouldn't be here. That is the difference.

You answered your own question. If it was a female friend you wouldn't be here. That is the difference.

So is that the basic takeaway--Men & women can't be friends? Well, unless said male is gay?

I get it. I screwed up the boundaries with my AP. I've learned. I won't do that again.

I've always been extremely reluctant to have close friendships because of a fear of getting hurt. There's a certain group of friends from back in the day that I am open to that with...chatting about nothing, eventually trusting them enough to chat about things that matter. Some are men, some women, some gay, some straight. Do I now have to filter? You're a straight man, therefore no conversation now or ever?

splitintwo - Regarding the difference between a friendship and an affair, much of that has to do with boundaries, not gender, IMO.

Did you ever discuss aspects of your marriage with your AP that you wouldn't discuss with other friends?

Did you ever have any type of conversation with your AP that would make you uncomfortable if your BH was standing in the same room?

Did you ever discuss aspects of your marriage with your AP that you wouldn't discuss with other friends?

Did you ever have any type of conversation with your AP that would make you uncomfortable if your BH was standing in the same room?

I agree it's a boundaries issue. That's why I consider my A a friendship that went sideways...I ignored my boundaries (he has none). Based on LosferWords' questions, this is what I need to know. And it applies to anything that I would consider a friendship:

When you're in a M, can you also have a friendship in which you'd discuss things that would make you uncomfortable if BH was standing in the room? Talk about things you wouldn't necessarily talk about with BH?

This is very important for me to understand, as it reads like the answer is no, even if the friend is also female & there's no issue of sex/love confusing things down the line.

Boundaries are personal and individual to everyone. I think a big part of it is not just looking at what might make your BH uncomfortable, but using empathy to determine how he might feel if he were standing in the room, or privy to whatever conversation you are having.

Even with a female friend, it is possible for you to share information about your husband or your marriage that is too personal, and perhaps beyond the level of sharing that your husband is comfortable with. If that's the case, even though this isn't necessarily an affair, it can still be a betrayal of trust.

You are asking some really good and in depth questions, by the way.

[This message edited by LosferWords at 12:45 PM, April 1st (Tuesday)]

No, I don't think married people can have intimate friendships with people of the gender they are attracted to. Too much time invested = danger zones. You just being friends before doesn't matter at all. As soon as you emotionaly relied on him it was over. I always had male friends growing up and I still have some but I can see the difference now. The connection with the man I slept with was different. I didn't see it before but I know now I cannot be close friends with members of the opposite sex. Even if my feelings don't grow what about theirs? And as I had no physical attraction at first I know that can change. Hours talking, looking forward to the next chat, missing him and maybe being a little grumpy when we didn't get a chance to connect. All that happened before we crossed any obvious line in what we talked about and shared. But it was still too much.

My AP was definitely a friend before the EA started. For years.

As to friends, I have girlfriends that I discuss things with that I wouldn't necessarily discuss with my H. But I'm not certain that I've actually ever said anything to them that I'd lie about to my H if the subject came up and we were discussing the topic.

I don't have very many male friends with the exception of my girlfriend's husbands. I can't think of anything I'd discuss with them they I wouldn't be willing to discuss with their wives or my H.

I generally have good boundaries and have no problem telling a friend, male or female, when I think they've crossed a line.

For whatever reason, like you, I let my guard down with AP. The things I discussed with him make me cringe, and he's probably the only person I've had discussions with that I would not want my H to be part of or know about.

But regardless, whatever AP started out as, it's clear to me that he can never be my friend again. I don't want him to be anything to me. ever.

It took me approximately two years to withdraw from him. I did it the slow way that you seem to be attempting. Weaned myself off of him. I'm not convinced it was the way to go. In one way, over time, I got sick of him and me, and it seemed right when I finally freed myself. In other ways, I think cold turkey would have been healthier for my soul. One thing is for sure, I definitely don't romanticize anything anymore. It's all one big black hole of suckville to me now.

splitintwo - When you're in a M, can you also have a friendship in which you'd discuss things that would make you uncomfortable if BH was standing in the room? Talk about things you wouldn't necessarily talk about with BH?

LosferWords - Even with a female friend, it is possible for you to share information about your husband or your marriage that is too personal, and perhaps beyond the level of sharing that your husband is comfortable with. If that's the case, even though this isn't necessarily an affair, it can still be a betrayal of trust.

My post is pointless, only to say that OMG, YES! I had boundary issues with female (and male) friends years before my A. BH had caught a few texts between me and a female friend and it took me a looooong time to realize how inappropriate our conversations were. It's not until after DDay that I feel I can really truly grasp this concept.

My life:

PainfulReminder: And as I had no physical attraction at first I know that can change. Hours talking, looking forward to the next chat, missing him and maybe being a little grumpy when we didn't get a chance to connect. All that happened before we crossed any obvious line in what we talked about and shared.

And this is simply brilliant:

sunnyrain: It's all one big black hole of suckville to me now.

[This message edited by splitintwo at 12:55 PM, April 1st (Tuesday)]

First, read Not Just Friends. It will explain to you how you got to where you are.

There is a difference between being friends and having an A. We all have a little difficulty in defining what constitutes an EA. For me, it's getting something out of the relationship that you should be getting solely from the M, and putting something into the relationship that should be exclusive to the M.

Gently, there is something with you that escalated your friendship into an A. There is a gap that he filled. I don't think I could have figure out that gap if my AP was still there.

Getting the daily "slap in the face reminder that he doesn't care for me" is not remotely indifference. That's keeping the emotional connection intact. I did this, and in my weak points fell right back into my wayward actions.

What is Not Just Friends? Book? Thread? Something else?