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I strongly suspect that your WW's remorse and regret are strongly tied to her not wanting to be living in a crummy apartment with money troubles and having to take a full-time job; this will be the consequence of divorce when pushing 50 years of age.

She no empathy for you and has no genuine remorse; her focus is making sure you don't terminate her comfortable lifestyle and leave her broke and alone. That prospect quite alarms her, hence the signs of contrition you are now observing.

So is reconciliation with a WS concerned with preserving her lifestyle and financial status worth anything? She may go back to AMadison if she can do a better job of disguising her intentions. I suspect this will be one of those marriages that will limp along with bitterness and resentment into old age. Maybe you can do better?

WW's offense was so bad and her effort to repair it was so weak that I considered shifting us directly to a D track on our next MC session. I have suggested that I might do this to WW but she seems in denial around a bunch of this so who knows how seriously she takes that.

An unexpected flash of effort last night makes me think delaying immediately filing for D would be reasonable.

But I'm torn between how to play it. I feel myself doing 180 approach (and just not caring what she says or does unless she takes the initiative to work on the M), vs. drawing a roadmap for her of what I need and what she needs to do.

Most of what I've done has been the latter and it hasn't worked well.

My gut has been my most reliable barometer so far: I've found uncovered everything based on my hunches coupled with detective work; she's revealed very little. My gut right now says hold back, disengage, and see if she can sustain an effort.

No one should feel that bad for her if we D: she'll walk with around $1M plus child and spousal support. The worst part for her will probably be her relationship prospects. She knows from her girlfriends that it's a jungle out there.

I think she knows that the reason for the D will eventually become known to our kids and her family. Her family will be unimpressed to say the least. None of her other four siblings have had a D and their marriages are all 30+ years now.

I feel myself doing 180 approach (and just not caring what she says or does unless she takes the initiative to work on the M), vs. drawing a roadmap for her of what I need and what she needs to do.

Don't let her words that she might be getting keep you from being vigilant.

It seems she might be saying that so you will stop snooping and continue with her OM.

If not, and she is sincere about saying she has a few ideas, listen.

Have you ever asked her WHY she thought the marriage needed help in the first place. After all, that is her excuse for having affairs in the first place.

And you are right, there is a lot of damage she needs to fix. She can never fix how she treated you when your mom passed away, that is unfixable and something your wife should regret the rest of her life, if she has a conscience about what she did.

Give her a list of things that you need her to do in order to stay married.

The obvious things are to stop keeping secrets, and start telling the entire truth.

Stop talking in confidence with her friends.

And whatever you need.

As for talking to her toxic friends. One rule is, if she cannot say it in front of you, or be able to tell you about it, she shouldn't be talking about it with anyone else.

I do not think you should disengage at all. If she is still bull hitting you it will just give her more space to betray you again, and she will use that as the excuse to do it. Blake it on you .

I would have your attorney draw up the papers. Divorces are not instantaneous, and then I would sit her down and tell her your expectations for continuing this marriage. If she is not receptive I would hand her the papers. You will then have your answers.

I would am NOT expect her fear of the dating pool to have any influence on her decision. Her experience on AM showed her how easy it is to attract a slew of men. And her friends, who are toxic to you, will gladly do everything they can do to fix her up if needed.

You have a non remorseful, self-entitled wife who has humiliated you with people in your social circle, and who still is probably getting all the encouragement she needs from them. Has she told you how many of them know what she was doing?

If a fish stays in water it can still swim. She needs a big time wake up call

Later tonight I told her about my feeling and she said "Oh, he found out already." I said that it would have helped me to know that he knew so I wouldn't worry that he's in the dark and hurting. She just didn't get that this was even an issue.

OMG - I think your WW is lying about this. Call this poor guy and confirm this. And didn't she say she was NC with this 'friend'? So how does she know he knows?

Your wife is a real prize right now. Don't worry about her anymore. Worry about YOU. She's gone. I'd start asking her to go. If that doesn't wake her up, she won't wake up.

EDIT - OK, I just read the other posts. The crumbs your wife tossed you are just that - crumbs. If you want to spend another couple of years getting crumbs each time you've hit what you think is the end, then keep playing her game.

Forget the roadmap. Waywards are so self involved, the assumption seems to be that if we BSs are trying so hard, they couldn't have done anything that bad, right? She needs the cold, hard truth - you aren't furniture. You CAN leave this marriage. You WON'T always just be there. You CAN have a life without her.

You've been with her for 18 years. She probably cannot imagine you not being right there, forever. She needs to see that you are there because you want to be, not because you have to be, and if this is who she is, then you don't want to be there anymore.

Why is it these SAH people always pull this affair crap? Is not having to deal with a boss, coworkers, traffic, etc. so boring that a person just can't help themselves?

[This message edited by painfulpast at 10:13 AM, June 16th (Monday)]

After getting home from my hockey game last night WW and I had another long conversation. She does seem to have stepped up a bit in the last few days. I suspect she feels like I'm slipping away from her and is realizing that she can't just mail it in. Why it took so long for her to reach this point this I have no idea.

I continue to tell her that I don't like how her language around the A is vague (compared to her usual vivid conversation) and that I don't like her lame excuses for why I have to drag details out of her.

I told her I felt like one of those guys at the trust-building seminars where you have to fall backwards into the arms of the person who is to catch you and keep you from hitting the floor -- but for me the last three times she let me go so why should I think she'll catch me this time?

She's becoming more clear about how bad her f-up was and seems to be understanding the damage she's done more with each passing day. She also seems to have started to internalize the reading I've asked her to do and is able to discuss it more like an adult and less like a third grader.

But it's just been a few days. I told her that everytime I started to believe in the M I got knocked down, so now I associate these positive feelings with the pain that has come afterwards. It's going to take a lot of work to break that connection. She understands, and says she wants R and is willing to work for it.

The NC with the bad MC/GF wasn't broken, apparently she has known that other BH knew since before I knew who bad MC/GF even was.

One example of her still not getting it: Last night she repeated that she didn't want to tell me who bad MC/GF is because she didn't want me to feel badly about her. She said, when you saw her today you felt that way about her, right? I told hell yes I felt that way, and it was my right to do so, and she should not have denied me that right. I still think she feels that her goal was a reasonable one which is maddening.

It's now 2 months since DD#2, and 2 weeks since the latest TT bombshell. Last week I was thinking D was inevitable. Now my head tells me that R is possible, maybe even a good choice. My heart is still very very afraid of getting crushed yet again.

Unlike before, I don't want to lead conversations, I don't want to come up with new ideas, I don't want to draw roadmaps. I don't want to be a vigilant detective all the time. I don't want to visualize the future and think about how good it can be. I don't want to help my WW work through her issues. I don't want to worry about how D will affect our beautiful DS's. I don't want to be here at work providing for my family.

I slept maybe 3 hours last night and I'm exhausted. I just want to stop hurting.

Why it took so long for her to reach this point this I have no idea.

The 180 is working and she is finally coming out of the fog. And the fog is very real and very disgusting to watch.

One example of her still not getting it: Last night she repeated that she didn't want to tell me who bad MC/GF is because she didn't want me to feel badly about her.

Somewhat odd, why would your wife care what you think about her toxic gf.

Possibly because your wife is now embarrassed to have friends like that and just didnt want to say.

Your wife of course has to fully understand that there can be no secrets, no confidential conversations. Like I mentioned before, if a spouse can't say it in front of their spouse, they certainly shouldn't be talking about it to others.

Your wife of course has to fully understand that there can be no secrets, no confidential conversations. Like I mentioned before, if a spouse can't say it in front of their spouse, they certainly shouldn't be talking about it to o

Craig just posted the above to you. You cannot assume that a few days of respectable behavior has changed everything. If you do not get total transparancy, no privater conversations, accounting for her whereabouts, and her WANTING this you are not on the way to R.

If you read threads about other WW who want to reconcile or WH, they WELCOME transparency, WELCOME BOUNDARIES, WELCOME ANYTHING that they can do to heal you.

And this is going to take time. And having her constantly associating with a bunch of women who know or condoned her affair is not helpful. They are toxic to your marriage, especially if you know them and have to associate with them.

As Craig said, you may be getting somewhere because she realizes her crap is not going to cut it. You have to make her keep believing that. She is the cheater, she has no rights here.

Hi all. This has gone by so fast I haven't had time to respond a lot of the great advice and comments I've gotten.

I'm still noodling over the exposing the AP stuff. I think I want to hold that card for now. The main person I feel for is the BW of my WW's AP, even though I don't know her. I've seen pictures of her and her children, family pictures, etc. on Facebook. I wonder what kind of pain she's in. I wonder if she'd want to know?

As to the other comments, here goes:

positively4thst: I understand and also loathe sites like AM. However, treading lightly here, the issue isn't with the sight, it's with the people who choose to use it. You cannot spend your life hiding temptations from those you love. I don't think they did what they did because of AM, rather it was just the outlet they chose to deal with "whatever". If it wasn't AM, believe me, it would be something/someone else.

I get this. One thing I didn't mention though was that she started dating the exact same week we started seeing our MC. If she hadn't been exposed to AM, would would have likely gotten several MC sessions in to stabilize things before she decided to go nuclear.

Badhurt: Well, if she has not stopped using AM, what are you going to do about it other than hate the site...Did you confirm she withdrew the ad. You might want to put a fake ad on there yourself to see. Some have done that successfully. How can she expect you to trust her. There are a lot of other ways for her to cheat so you better get to MC or you will be in Sherlock Holmes mode for a long time.

She stopped using it on DD#1, and then created a new account during our false R. I watched her cancel the site for the second time. I monitor AM to see if she pops up again (which makes me sick even being on that site, but I do it anyway).

Mike7: did you "out" the marriage counselor to her husband, and to the state licensing board? I'm sure the state licensing board doesn't recommend that their counselors recommend Ashley Madison as a preferred recovery tool.

craig2001: Did you report this MC to your state regulatory board or whomever does that sort of thing there. That is pathetic.

I checked the state's licensing standards and her professional associations. Nothing seems to apply because my WW was not a client, just a "friend".

tushnurse: I had a spouse that wanted to R from Dday on, and was regretful, not remorseful, and willing to answer questions, and willing to do pretty much anything I asked, but he would angry and frustrated, which I didn't get. Of course he was breaking NC with his AP, and still thinking like a WS. It was NOT until I pushed his ass of the fence really hard that he truly got it, and that regret changed to Holy Shit, WHAT HAVE I DONE???? type remorse. This is when we really started moving forward.

This is what I feel, even though I'm pretty sure NC is holding. Still waiting for the real lightbulb to go on instead of this wishy washy flickering nonsense.

craig2001: Ask your wife how she thinks now, was the MC was correct, HAS this helped her marriage or ruined it?

She knows it's nearly ruined our marriage. Last time she said it helped bad MC/GF's marriage I reminder her that they don't sleep in the same bed and she's just sticking around 'til the kid's grown: great help here.

craig2001: Give her the book Not Just Friends to read, it might help her understand some of the incredible damage she has done here.

I think she needs to read it again. Last time through none of the books were sinking in, she still wasn't getting it. Wasn't allowing the impact to sink into her skull.

Badhurt: Like Craig just told you, you are in a position where if you are not snooping big time you will get burned again. She now knows how easy it is to hook up with guys online, and while AM gets a lot of publicity, believe me it is not the only site where she can do this.

I'm still snooping. I still wonder whether I should go nuclear with VARs and GPS, but haven't taken it to that level for now.

yearsofpain25: Here's a couple of links that you should read up on and keep in your back pocket.

Thanks so much, all very helpful.

craig2001: The more I think about that MC, the angrier it makes me. Do you realize how wrong it is if that MC was getting some kind of referral payments. I have no idea if AM does that, but a lot of website pay for referrals. Nice scam this MC possibly has going on.

I've been enraged too. Several people have told me that it's not her fault, only WW is to blame. I blame them both (mostly WW of course). Since they were just casually talking I'm sure no referral took place. But, bad MC/GF did give advice like don't post pictures. So it's was advocacy and instruction. Argh.

Commanche1: MHCA, Your Wife doesn't want to recover badly enough to overcome her shame in discussing things, She wants to rugsweep, this leads not to recovery but to reoffending, she needs to understand the "why" Why did she think it is okay for a married woman to date and understand the damage she has caused to the marriage. MC and IC are of no use when advice is based on falsehoods, She complains about reading assignments (not Getting it) She complains about you saying she's not getting it, Again Not Getting it. She wants to do fun things while her husband is like a man skinned alive, again not getting it. Tell her to move out and in with her parents, tell her parents why you are asking her to move out, She needs to start getting it or you will just be an angry man waiting to divorce

Amen.

craig2001: Do you still need questions answered...what do you want to talk to her about.

Funny, I don't know. Questions come up and sometimes they seem to be critical and sometimes they don't seem to matter at all. The slightest bit of resistance from WW escalates everything in my mind and then I feel like I have to know everything. Comes from being burned so badly I suppose.

Tred: Her AP had convinced her that his wife was an alcoholic, controlling, and would go crazy if she ever found out.

My WW's AP said her BW was a drug abusing horrible mother and so he couldn't leave the marriage. So says the lying cheating asshole WH.

jb3199: Demand that these "friends" of her affairs are cut out of your lives---they are toxic, and have NO PLACE near you, or your marriage.

I need to tighten up on this. One problem is sorting out who's a friend of the marriage and who's an enemy. We have some good friends who have successful marriages, and others that have open and DADT kinds of relationships that I think are a bad influence. She says they don't affect her and she doesn't want to judge. I think they need to get out of our lives.

happyman64: Do you have family close? Are her parents nearby or some of her siblings? If yes then return her!

Regrettably they're all thousands of miles away.

Badhurt: Second, your wife has obviously got herself involved with a group of friends who probably discuss a lot of very private stuff with each other, and I would not be surprised if others in her group have tried the AM routine

I think very few of her friends actively used AM, probably just the one to her knowledge. The initial conversation was the first time she'd heard of it and her shame kept the affair from everyone else (including her IC). That doesn't mean that all her friends are good ones though, and I'm still trying to sort through that rat's nest.

OK now: If you really get yourself in a position where you truly don't care, then you really have the strength to endure any crap she throws your way. It is a delicious freedom when you can say I have no love left; I really don't give a damn what she does. You can still stay married for a few years for the kids sake, but you will free of emotional ties; free to do whatever you want without worry and guilt. Give it a try; she isn't remorseful, then you owe her nothing.

I felt this way yesterday. Today I care a little. It wavers.

karmahappens: She can own it...but nobody can prove it won't happen again....That belief comes initially with a leap of faith when entering R and later you trust the WS will make the right choices, but only because they make an effort every day to earn that trust.

Yeah, true enough. But I'm not going to go forward blindly.

Tren0R201: Too much shielding and protection of everybody who participated. The MC gets protected, all the OM get protected. Your WW gets protected. Only you get to eat the sh*t sandwich, while dragging her kicking and screaming to even admit one small part in a myriad of different and much bigger issues.

Her protecting others at my expense has been the focus of my anger lately. She's starting to understand but still thinks that just because she didn't consciously prioritize others over me (so she says) that somehow it's ok. Drives me crazy!

OK now: I strongly suspect that your WW's remorse and regret are strongly tied to her not wanting to be living in a crummy apartment with money troubles and having to take a full-time job; this will be the consequence of divorce when pushing 50 years of age. She no empathy for you and has no genuine remorse; her focus is making sure you don't terminate her comfortable lifestyle and leave her broke and alone. That prospect quite alarms her, hence the signs of contrition you are now observing. So is reconciliation with a WS concerned with preserving her lifestyle and financial status worth anything? She may go back to AMadison if she can do a better job of disguising her intentions. I suspect this will be one of those marriages that will limp along with bitterness and resentment into old age. Maybe you can do better?

Maybe. I don't think she'll be able to fake it for the year+ she'd need to if that's where she is. And if this looks like what the deal is, I am so outta here.

craig2001: Have you ever asked her WHY she thought the marriage needed help in the first place. After all, that is her excuse for having affairs in the first place

Yeah, some of that is on me and us. She was feeling lonely and I was withdrawn. She felt unattractive and wondered if anyone would be attracted to her. We weren't getting along. She and I both had legitimate gripes. It goes much deeper. But she was the one that went nuclear and blindsided me.

craig55: Give her a list of things that you need her to do in order to stay married.

It would be a long list and I don't think I even know half of what's going to be on it. Still need time I guess.

painfulpast: Waywards are so self involved, the assumption seems to be that if we BSs are trying so hard, they couldn't have done anything that bad, right? She needs the cold, hard truth - you aren't furniture. You CAN leave this marriage. You WON'T always just be there. You CAN have a life without her.

I think she's starting to understand. I know that I can and will do these things. Teetering on the edge right now.

craig2001: The 180 is working and she is finally coming out of the fog. And the fog is very real and very disgusting to watch.

I so hope this is true.

Mhca

You will never sort out the friend thing because she is not going to tell you. You are married to a two time cheater and the only way you are really going to know anything is through the VAR and GPS route. She will talk in her car when you are not there and you will be able to tell by what she is saying and to who who your problems are.

Sorry a two time cheater that refuses to be totally transparent loses her right not to be snooped on with every means at your disposal. You can stop snooping when you are confident you do not need any help from this web site. Until the. It is at your own risk based on her behavior

I don't even know this person anymore.

Sorry, mhca. I can relate to that sentiment. There are a lot of us in that club. Either my wife changed during our marriage, or she was always that person and I was just too blind to see it. But the feeling that you don't know your spouse of 18 years, the mother of your children, is about as sobering as it gets. And it's a lonely feeling. Like maybe you have been spinning around the sun all this time...alone. That so many years have been wasted.

Try to find the beauty in life. It's still there, maybe just not where you thought it was.

t/j

Someone mentioned Craiglist in an earlier post. I made the mistake of checking that out recently, just to see what all the fuss was about. And honestly, to see if I might find a personal ad that looks like it could be from my WW or from her fOM. Because I don't discount any possibility anymore, and both have shown a fondness for electronically transmitting pictures of their private parts.

What I saw actually sickened me. My stomach was in knots for hours afterwards. Grown men and women posting crotch shots and dick pics and trolling for anyone desperate enough to sleep with them. Some looked like pros, but you could tell that many were amateurs just looking for attention and a mindless lay. And according to the page button at the bottom, these kinds of ads just went on and on, all from just the city I live in. It was demoralizing.

There are so many sad, lonely, desperate, broken people in the world. And some of them are our own wives and husbands.

end t/j

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 6:59 PM, June 16th (Monday)]

I keep on thinking of things that anger me. The latest is that about a week after DD#1, on New Years Day, I had hardly slept the entire time because of the shock. I had committed to a roller hockey tournament and managed to play through that (and we won) but on the drive home I felt dizzy and disoriented. I checked into an ER where they kept me a couple hours and gave me stuff to relax and sleep. The cause was the stress from the betrayal.

WW came to get me (somewhat to my surprise because she was being so hostile). Later, after DD#2 I checked the phone records and found out she consulted divorce attorneys that night and the following day. Apparently she was more worried for herself than for me and my condition. She claims she wanted to find out about whether she could keep the kids "safe" from me (never mind I've never been violent, ever) but that doesn't explain the financial advisor she contacted. She didn't pursue the consultations after that day but I still can't believe she would do such a thing.

How can I trust her ever again? She's being very kind to me recently but how much kindness can overcome something like that?

It takes a long time to get over something like this and her actions have to be consistant with what you have asked for. You need to communicate that.

At this point, there is no way to tell if she is sincere or just biding her time to start to play again, but you need information to set your mind at ease, not stress that will screw up your health. Her only desire now should be to help you heal, whatever that takes, and you are not getting that now.

Actions have consequences, and if she thinks a few days or weeks of not being so disrespectful is going to do the trick, you need to make her understand that she is mistaken. She caused this, not you, so any discomfort she feels she needs to blame on herself, not you.

And increase your snooping.

[This message edited by Badhurt at 8:49 PM, June 16th (Monday)]

My ex was on AFF, which is similar to AM. I had been married 17 years when I found out, and I cannot possibly overstate the shock and horror. He was so up to his eyeballs in that world he estimated he had been sexting with 50 or so women in less than two months.

I spent five months in R. One of the points I was obsessed with was how he decided to get on. He stood firmly behind his story that it was spur of the moment blah blah. It came out in a burst of TT five months into R that he had planned it for months and had hidden hundreds of dollars to cover a year subscription. He simply thought that was too damaging to reveal. My point in telling you this is that I think your wife's story might be straight up bullshit. I think she may have chosen this friend to throw some professional credibility behind her stupid, selfish choice. She then furthers the lie and tries to keep you from telling MCGF's husband. I would start with MCGF. She may be floored to find out this nonsense has been laid at her feet. If I'm wrong and she cops to all, then by all means tell her husband. My take away from my sitch was that cheaters are desperate and will spin preposterous lies to protect themselves.

Finally I will add my ex didn't "get it" either. There were bursts of lucidity here and there, but mostly it was madness. The lies went on and on, growing ever more ridiculous, and he proved over time his remorse had limits. Specifically it ended where he was forced to face consequences. Do not give your wife an inch of slack. She needs to GET IT. All day, every day, not just when the mood hits.

Tough MC session today. We talked a bit about the latest stuff (where it would have helped me to know that other BH actually knew about his WW's use of AM, and she decided not to tell me until too late.)

After the preliminaries I declared that I was exhausted, my tank is empty, I've got nothing else to give. My only experience right now is sadness and pain.

WW said she's worried each night I come home that I'll announce I want D. I'd say this worry is warranted, but I don't think I'll do this in the next few days.

MC talked about patterns of communication and how we're pushing each other away. True enough I suppose, and maybe thinking about that will give us some time to breathe and consider what's best for us and our DS's.

[This message edited by mhca at 3:28 PM, June 17th (Tuesday)]

MHCA, Just for arguments sake, Tell the betrayed Husband of the MC about the Ashley Madison use and see what happens, it is way to early for you to expect truth from your wayward Wife, She is still in self defense mode minimizing, omitting and lying. with that said life altering decisions should never be made while in shock, tell your wife that you will make no decision for six months and give her a list of non-negotiables that you expect. what she says means nothing, what she does means everything.

Talked to my shrink today. He nailed it: "People who have affairs have broken empathy. Sometimes they get it back." Jury is still out for my WW.