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This is most likely going to be long and a little venty. I missed IC this week, will be missing next week, and just need to get this out.

So, BW and I had been NC until a couple of days ago, when we exchanged some of the kids stuff on Wednesday. We had a conversation that was sad, depressing, we expressed how we are both upset at the current situation. There was more to it, but that is the gist.

DS 11 comes home from camp Wednesday and says “don’t be angry at mommy, but male family friend, let’s call him 'joe' (the one that was staying with BW in one of my recent post) is coming to stay with mommy again with his daughter”. I was a little upset by this. I feel like BW has put DS 11 in the middle of this by telling DS 11 that I do not like that family friend. Not true, it just makes me sad that there has been someone else in the house being a male role model for my kids, making them breakfast, etc. I explained that to BW already.I told DS that I am not angry or mad at mommy, it just mad me sad when he was staying there last time. Then I feel like I shared too much.

Yesterday BW and I were discussion some matters about DS music lessons, and she tells me that she wants to let me know that “joe” is coming into town and will be staying with her, and didn’t want me to be blind sided.

I told her I already know, that DS told me, and I was rather upset that he thinks he needs to tell me to not be angry at mommy for this. I told her that I think she should not have told DS that I did not like 'joe' (because its not true), that she can do what ever she wants. That I do not care, which in retrospect is not true because I do care for many reasons, but I am trying to fake it until I really don’t care.

I explained in the last thread that BW and ‘joe’ are not dating, at least that is what BW tells me, and I have no reason the not believe her. Just putting that out there.

So today, I was running late from a work meeting, so had arranged for BW to pick kids up from camp. It’s a beach camp, and long story short I arrived to pick them up a few minute earlier than I thought, so up drives BW with “joe” in the front seat with the family. I was like fuck. Not what I want to see after a long day of driving to and from meetings. He unloads my kids shit from the car, and I notice he is wearing a cap that I brought home from a business trip for my kid. Come on. So BWs wife test of that she is hanging out at the beach with the kids while true should have read, 'joe and I are at the beach with the kids.

So I feel like I am being petty, but come on. WTF. You are wearing that hat, driving in the car I am still paying for, staying in the house that I am still paying for, I hope you are enjoying yourself. All petty and ugly stuff, but I said I needed to vent.

Then I realized, I do care because I still have feelings and the entire thing is very emotionally painful for me. I would love it if I really didn’t care if someone was there, I would love it if I didn’t miss BW, but I do.

I feel like I have made so much progress. I also feel like BW is stuck. In so much pain. I feel like she can talk to me about her struggles, and I hold back cause I don’t want to dump my emotional stuff on her. She says she wishes things could be different. I want to tell her that they can be different, she just has to say the word, but I feel like even saying that will break a boundary.

This just sucks so much. If you made it through this, thanks for reading.

So it’s a vent, and parts are rather petty, but what do I do? What can I do? Any suggestions?

That sucks. She wants to move on with Joe? Then that's her right. But he shouldn't be wearing your cap and being the new dad.

Separated does not mean divorced. If you're divorced, fine. She can do what she wants. But if you're separated, then both of you should be using that isolation to figure out what you really want out of life and what's important to you.

Joe should not be in your house, wearing your clothes, and playing dad.

You made your bed though, so you have to sleep in it. Work on yourself and do the best you can.

Humility, if only for your kids.

You should not put the kids in the middle of all this, and neither should she.

I would find some alone time for the two of you, and tell her honestly how you feel about Joe and the situation and how the things that Joe is telling DS is not appropriate.

If you're trying to work on yourselves, then Joe is just a fly in the ointment.

If you're not trying to work on yourselves, then it doesn't matter what Joe does, and you finalize your strategy for permanent separation and don't be petty in the meanwhile.

You're going to lose some money. Joe is staying in the house you're paying for: whatever. You're paying the price of infidelity.

I don't know whether my feedback helps you or not. Just wanted you to know you've been heard. Especially on a friday night :)

Thanks for hearing me.

No she is not moving on with joe - he's a friend, but it still bugs me.

We are separated, and we are going to get divorced once she finds a job. I agreed to that, and living up to that promise starting year 3 of S. BW says there is no R in our future, and I take her word on that. I am trying to heal and move on, but the emotions get to me sometimes.

I have told her how I feel about joe - that it makes me sad that someone else is in the house, AND that I get that it's my actions that have gotten us here.

I get the don't be petty part. I just wanted to get that out. I don't share that petty stuff with my friends, since I don't want them to pile on in an attempt to 'support' me. I have to wait 2 weeks before my next IC appoint, there I can talk through this and get IC perspective and guidance.

thanks for listening.

How long have you been in limbo hell for? Am I mistaken or were you dating someone? Wasn't she dating someone too?

You know, BSs can cake eat too. There is an emotional bakery as well as a physical one.

The hat his horribly insensitive. Bringing him along is incredibly insensitive.

If 'Joe' were a woman you wouldn't have this reaction. Is she dating him? Is he a platonic friend? Is she cultivating something? Is she keeping you as a Plan B?

Why is it she can tell you about her feelings but not about her friend Joe and him hanging out with your kids. You should not have to hear this stuff from your 11 y/o son. She should not be putting him in the middle.

This all sounds incredibly imbalanced.

You get to choose too, y'know. At what point does R come off the table for you? At what point has there been enough pain for you to start NC/180. Not to hurt her or because you don't have true remorse or because you wouldn't do almost anything for even a chance of R but because a part of becoming healthy is setting healthy boundaries.

This doesn't sound at all healthy to me. Take off the WS/BS hats for a moment and consider what this would be if you had S for reasons excluding infidelity. What would you call what is going on now? What she is doing? What you are doing?

You can't have a foot in both worlds. She can't either.

BSs are encouraged to cut all ties in situations you describe here. NC/180 - kids/finances only. They do it long before they want to as well. They do it to detach because staying attached is damaging to them.

At what point do you think the risk to you and your health outweighs the crumbs of hope you're living off of right now? At what point does she need to get off and away from the fence. At what point do you need to stop trying to get her off the fence she sometimes appears to sit on?

IMO you have a right to be pissed off. Not about Joe (that would hurt whether or not the door was adjar) but because she is concealing and either implicitly or passively having your kids feel like they need to conceal too. And because it sounds like she is cake-eating.

I know you want R. In that you are no different than many BSs here. You, like them, will reach your place of DONE in your own time and for your own reasons. I fear that WS hat makes you feel like you don't get to choose or that in tolerating this you are exhibiting love and willingness to R. But you're not exhibiting healthy boundaries.

SBB-

We have been separated for 2 years, and from pretty early on R was off the table. The limbo is that we agreed to not get D until she finds a job (insurance). I was not dating, and I doubt she is.

If 'Joe' were a woman you wouldn't have this reaction. Is she dating him? Is he a platonic friend? Is she cultivating something? Is she keeping you as a Plan B?

BW asked me this, and my answer was that it would feel different, but I would still be sad because I want to be part of the family. I think the fact that he is male and has been with the kids so much, making them pancakes (that's my morning thing with DS 11), spending time with them, etc, all plays into my FOO triggers of abandonment. Those FOO are really hitting me hard right now as I re-examine our relationship. SO this is just re-enforcing those old feelings and triggers.

You get to choose too, y'know. At what point does R come off the table for you?

Sometimes I feel so strong, and that I can say R if off the table, and then we break NC and I get weak and let emotions take over. I am surviving off of the crumbs, as you put it.

But you're not exhibiting healthy boundaries.

Yep - I agree. I had requested that she not discuss Joe with me, but she brought it up again yesterday under the guise that I should not hear about it from the kids. I had told her that I am fine hearing about him via kids, and I don't want them to feel like they cannot discuss this with me or talk about the time they spend at their moms. But she still brought it up.

What would you call what is going on now? What she is doing? What you are doing?

I call it limbo. S, heading for D, but not yet. As far as BW is concerned we are D.

BW - It seems like she is not healing, but I know everyone heals at their own pace.

What am I doing - working on me, trying to move on. Accepting that the M is over, even though I don't want to.

Sometimes I feel so strong, and that I can say R if off the table, and then we break NC and I get weak and let emotions take over. I am surviving off of the crumbs, as you put it.

There isn't a BS here that can't relate to exactly this and to the feelings around another adult stealing 'our' moments with our kids. OWUmpteen now lives with my children for 50% of their lives. It is rough but that is what D is. He and I are not friends - we don't talk about our feelings. We sacked each other from that job. You sacked each other too. You want to R, she doesn't. That means she doesn't get the perks of you either. Hence the cake-eating.

You can be stuck in limbo all by yourself. Some do it for years. Some forever. It is no way to live.

I know R is off the table but staying in touch and discussing feelings is definitely still cake-eating on her part IMO.

She doesn't need to discuss Joe with you but she should have mentioned a male was spending time with your children. As their father this is relevant info ESPECIALLY given you speak regularly outside of kids/finances. Are there overnights too?

After that there is no need for further discussion. Why bring him to the handover? Why did your son think you'd be 'angry'? These are not behaviours in a completely platonic friendship.

You can't be 'friends' while either of you are still hurting. That just prolongs and extends the hurt.

NC = No New Hurts. I know you don't want to. You share that with many BSs here too. But you have to.

Limbo and S/D are very different things. Not the same at all. Limbo happens with cake-eating, contact, not detaching are in play. S/D doesn't involve any of that.

There is zero chance for R in my situation. Now if by some miracle he finds true remorse my position would not change. I would probably be firmer on NC than I already am. I would not use his remorse to cake eat and /or have him continue to fulfil any of my emotional needs. My decision was easier to accept by his complete lack of remorse but accepting that this was a dealbreaker no matter what he did was enormously painful. THAT is mine to own. Infidelity his but dealbreaker mine.

Let her go and distance yourself. Read and re-read 180/NC. You are doing yourself and her a disservice by staying as unhealthy as she is and not healing because she hasn't/won't.

As you know I'm considered a madhatter here. I don't identify as one but one thing I do accept is that I probably would have cake eaten for some time had he shown true remorse. This was a dealbreaker. I didn't want it to be. I wished it wasn't but it just was. His lack of remorse helped take the sting out of accepting that.

Just don't stay in limbo too long, OK. It is soul destroying.

Why bring him to the handover?

The handover was happening at her house, and I got there a few minutes before they pulled up. If I was 5 minutes later they would have most likely already been inside, and I would have just texted for her to send kids down to meet me.

Why did your son think you'd be 'angry'?

Because about a month ago when I first told her how it made me feel that he was there so much (about a month I would guess) she then told my son that I did not like joe, and that it mad me upset that he was there so much. So then he asked me back then why i didn't like joe, and I had to explain it to him. I know my DS likes joe and his daughter. My problem was not joe, but I was telling BW how it made me feel. That is how DS 11 got in the middle of this mess.

You can be stuck in limbo all by yourself. Some do it for years. Some forever. It is no way to live.

Yes, I think I am the only stuck in limbo, I do not think BW would describe it like that, since she has been firm in the fact that it was a deal breaker. Maybe it is all me. I think that I have allowed myself to be an emotional support to her because of my imagined chance at R.

You can't be 'friends' while either of you are still hurting. That just prolongs and extends the hurt.

Limbo and S/D are very different things. Not the same at all. Limbo happens with cake-eating, contact, not detaching are in play. S/D doesn't involve any of that.

Makes total sense.

As I read this I feel like BW and I are just not in the same place. I feel like we are in limbo, and she does not. As long as I let her discuss emotional stuff, she will. I read her sadness as something that it is not.

I read her sadness as something that it is not.

It's that perceived chance of R that keeps you hurting yourself. Reading meaning into everything is pretty common too. She is sending you mixed messages. Clear on no R b then using you for emotional support. It has to stop.

FWIW I don't believe they are not dating. I don't have friends come to stay with me and share day to day family life with me for a month at a time. Male or female. She doesn't need to lie to you but that doesn't mean she won't try to conceal it. At the very least he is fulfilling some emotional need in her. Would that be enough for you to reach DONE?

As I said, take off your WS/BS hats and she is clearly cake eating on some level. You are trying to 'nice' her into R. How many more years will you stay in limbo?

There are lots of us here who've been where you are now. S/D Forum isn't just for BSs. They would probably say the same things I am saying to you. If your BS was posting in there they'd probably tell her to detach from you too. I know I would. You are both hurting yourselves and each other. Perhaps even your kids.

It's up to you how painful this gets.

Would that be enough for you to reach DONE?

It should, but I think I have so ignored what is right and healthy for me that it is hard to say done. I think I am ready though, finally.

How many more years will you stay in limbo?

I can't do it any more. It is too emotionally painful and draining.

It's up to you how painful this gets.

And that is exactly what I have been doing. Choosing pain. I have let the guilt and shame for everything I have done let me not take care of myself, and do what I know I should be doing.

Thanks for putting it so clearly.

I'm rooting for you BC. S was 2 years ago for me too and I remember reading your posts and WISHING X would feel even a little bit of what you felt. Even though this was a dealbreaker I still wanted to see it.

But it's time. Well time. As much as I don't care for him I wouldn't wish him the hell you have been living. Shame doesn't serve you - not your healing, not your emotional health, it serves no purpose other than harm.

It will be hard at first as detaching is always painful. But it is worth it.

badchoice

You are sitting in a rough situation right now. from another perspective. I think that you have not let go of the outcome. So your healing is not full steam as of yet. From what I see, you are holding onto hope of R even though she has told you repeatedly that R is off the table.

The way I see it, she is cake-eating. You are into year 3 of S. And she want to continue her lifestyle monetarily while she sorts out her life. While she is looking for a job that will support it, or maybe she isn't looking too hard since the bills are all getting paid. I understand that you made a promise to help her until she finds work. I get that, if my BS after being a SAHM for so long left, she would need schooling and a career. But S is working on yourselves not testing the greener grasses. Has she been looking for the past 2 years and has been unable to find work? Have you set a deadline? Or is this an indefinite arrangement? If she is not finding work, than it is time to sell the house and downsize. That is her new reality looking at D. She needs to take responsibility for herself at this point.

I see another tough situation. your BS wants to inform you about JOE so that you are not blindsided by the kids but you are trying to keep discussion to only kids/finances. it is a catch 22. She cannot talk to you about it, but you feel that she is then putting the kids in the middle. Maybe posting that question in D/S forum could get you better responses on how to deal with that.

continue your healing, set your boundaries, fix your shit, and fight for what good and right.

Dr J

I do think that I flip between letting go, and then getting freaked out and holding on even tighter. I also think that sometimes BW might feel my detachment, and then we have a talk, and all of the work I had done to detach is lost. So to be blunt with myself, no, I have not let go. Its either a yes or no answer, I cannot let go a little.

Have you set a deadline? Or is this an indefinite arrangement?

No deadline set. I told her that I would help her. I feel like she deserves it, and I am starting to see where that might not have been the right thing to do. I did that from a place of wanting R, and early on I would have done anything. She has been looking for work, and we rent the house, so nothing to sell off and downsize.

I guess the question I have for myself is as SBB said, how much pain and suffering am I will ing to put myself through. I started to read the book 'no more mr nice guy', and it has been eye opening. Fits me to a tee. I realize that I have always pretty much done everything to keep the peace, and then getting resentful about it and becoming very PA about it. I fight the PA sometime now. My awareness of how distractive it is stops me from hitting that self district button now.

I am still learning self care, and putting myself first (and my boys of course), and I remind myself that BW fired me from that job, so it's time to accept that.

I am getting closer every day, and I am seeing how key NC is at this point. I told BW this past wednesday that I do not want to be the divorced parents that only see each other at major events in our kids life. So far we haven't been that way, but it is trending that way. I grew up without a dad, and BWs parents were divorced via a very messy D, lived on opposite sides of the country, and I can see how much FOO these things cause. We both want to do better for our kids, but we cannot forget ourselves in that equation.

Thanks y'all for listening, and for the feedback.

[This message edited by badchoice at 10:12 AM, July 12th (Saturday)]

Are you telling me that after two years she has not been able to find a single job? Maybe it is time to start downsizing and set a timeline so that the D process can be started and you both can get started on your own lives.

Are you telling me that after two years she has not been able to find a single job?

Yes.

I feel torn, because I gave her my word on this, and even the last time I brought this subject up on SI, she read that post and got upset.

I feel like I need to start talking timelines, end games, etc…But it does not feel like a safe conversation for me.

Holy shit I want to rant right now…

Drop off DS 11 at BW house…I know Joe is there with his daughter, I know they are staying there…but I drop off, put some stuff in garage, scooters, helmets, and then take back my surf board that BW borrowed when her dad was in town.

I called her, she didn't pick up, so I texted her that info…

She calls me back, to make sure she didn't miss the call and then asked me why I picked up the surf board. I feel like saying because it's mine and why do you care, but I explain that she borrowed it, and so I am just taking it back.

So we hang up, I am upset so I text her (I know I should have left it as is) and asked her whats going on? THat her questions disturbed me…she text back 'nothing, its no problem to store in the garage, didn't know you were using it'. This from the person who wanted all of my shit out of there 8 months ago, and I had to negotiate for a shelf for some tools.

I felt like texting back but i just said ok. Unhealthy PA reaction would have been to send back a text saying 'it's none of your business what I do with it, why are you so interested' ' what are you surfing with joe tomorrow?', but clearly that has gotten me no where in my life. I don't want to send that but why do those thoughts pop into my head.

I guess it means I have more work to do on how to handle those feelings of hurt, and find a healthy way to deal with them.

I know I am over reacting, but shit, it seems like everything she does now triggers me. and triggers me hard. My heart is beating, my hands are shaking. My mind jumps to Joe, and thinking, shit, what are they surfing together? Neither one surfs as far as I know, but that is how crazy i get sometimes.

So I can see right here how NC is best. Cause contact is driving me crazy right now. I wish I had the kids tonight.

thanks for the ear SI.

Are you telling me that after two years she has not been able to find a single job?

Do you wonder if she is nice-ing you to maintain this arrangement? That would explain concealing Joe.

You are both nice-ing each other for your own means. Her for financial support, you for a chance at R.

Is she studying? What does she do all day? Does Joe work? Is he contributing? Has the financial arrangement not changed at all since S? How are you living? Do you have an equal living standard? Are you saving for retirement?

You gave her your word but she also has a responsibility in that agreement. To get a job.

What do you each think D looks like? What does the asset split look like? What does CS look like? What does custody look like? You can't avoid this forever.

Does she think post D everything gets to remain exactly the same as in M except you are not together? That you are obligated to maintain the status quote forever?

She knows why you are continuing to fully financially support her and it is not just because you said you would until she found a job.

R is OFF the table. What happens when she re-couples? It appears she has. What happens when you re-couple?

Clearly this is not a feasible arrangement in the long term.

You don't need to fuck her over but she doesn't get to fuck you over either. S/D means everyone's life changes. For 2 years all of the upside is for her and all downside for you. That isn't how it works. There are consequences for your actions and choices. There are for hers too.

It is your fault you cheated. It is her fault that this is a dealbreaker. Being remorseful doesn't mean punishing yourself forever.

I don't know about the US but in Australia the longer this kind of arrangement is in place the more likely it is to be court ordered to continue.

Have you seen a L?

SBB you ask some very good questions.

have I seen a L, no.

Is she studying?

is supposed to start school to finish her degree, but not sure where that stands.

What does she do all day?

do not know.

Does Joe work?

He has some business, but does not make money

Is he contributing?

Not that I know other than buying his own food (maybe)

Has the financial arrangement not changed at all since S?

no, we have joint bank account, everything gets paid out of that.

How are you living? Do you have an equal living standard?

no - i have a one bedroom apartment, she stayed in the two bedroom house. - she got the newer car, I got the old one.

Are you saving for retirement?

401k that is going to be split at some point.

Does she think post D everything gets to remain exactly the same as in M except you are not together? That you are obligated to maintain the status quote forever?

That was a threat of hers early on, that if we D, then I would have to down size because of all the support I would have to pay…In my head I thought that there was no way she would get more than I am paying now. Her bills far exceed mine, so even at a 50/50 of my salary, I would be keeping more.

My guilt has gotten me to this place, and it seems like such a huge hole. I feel scared to even bring up the subject, since just last week she told me that she struggles to even get dressed in the morning and feed herself. That the thoughts of suicide have just recently stopped.

During that talk I looked at her like WTF. What have you been doing to heal yourself for two years? I also look ed at her like she needs to be saved. Just like it was when we first started dating. Part of me wants to save her from this, and right now I can only do it with money. She doesn't want me, but she wants my money.

As I type that I can see how fucked up that sounds. How little I value myself in all of this.

I just don't know how to get out of this.

What I would do:

* Talk to a few Ls, tell them what the current arrangement is and find out what the potential reality is (assume she already has). Nominate one and and come up with a settlement proposal or at least a straw man of one. I also asked for a best and worst case scenario - a min/max in your case. Decide where in that range would be a fair arrangement and what extras you would be able and willing to offer. Follow their advice as to what happens between now and settlement/D.

* You could blindside her with D papers but I don't know that I would. After you have a settlement proposal or straw man I would communicate to her that it has now been 2 years. She doesn't want R, you do want R but it is time for you to bow out and respect her choice. For you and for her. It is time to begin the D process. Things cannot go on as they are emotionally and financially.

* If she refuses to participate talk to your L about tactics that might get her to play ball. If she refuses to come to a fair arrangement you may need to revert to the minimum you are obligated to contribute until she does.

* if she talks suicide you call 911. They can save her. You can't. You should not be held hostage by her emotional state or mental illness. She needs to carry her own water.

* Talk to your IC about this plan and consider increasing the regularity of sessions during this time.

* Reach out for support IRL. You're going to need support through this.

* Reach out to the S/D peeps and maybe also the Menz thread for support. The Wayward forum is mainly folks in R.

She may become volatile. That is her choice - not your doing and not something you have control over.

Things may get ugly. As long as you don't get ugly what she does is again her choice and not something you have control over.

If FULL financial support is the nexus for a co-operative parenting relationship then that is not a relationship but blackmail or a softer word for that. You can still be incredibly sorry and remorseful for what happened in your M AND still want R AND still divorce her. They are not mutually exclusive.

She cannot refuse R AND D. She can refuse to heal or get help but she cannot deny you the right to step away - staying isn't helping her healing or yours.

I know that even considering this is overwhelming. This will bring up lots of horrible stuff. The death of hope was by far the most agonising part of all of this for me. But it was essential. Limbo was hell even when I was in it alone. Hell. No-one can heal in that environment and it does a lot of damage.

You are upset, angry and hurting because you are in limbo hell and because you are maintaining contact. She has a right to move on and live her life as she chooses. You have no claim to her. She also has no claim to you.

I know this thread is written for a BS dealing with an unremorseful WS but I think you should read it.

I've been thinking that the challenge/damage of trying to R with an unremorseful WS are similar to the challenges/damage of trying to R with a BS for whom this is a dealbreaker and R is absolutely not an option.

If you love them - divorce them.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=469167