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I often say I'm sorry to my BH about what I did to him and our life together. Usually when I do, like the other night, he'll say to me, "If you're sorry, then you wouldn't have done it." (To me this doesn't make sense because I DID do it and I AM sorry about it.) He has also said that I am sorry that I got caught. Has anyone else dealt with this? I feel that I am deeply sorry for what I did. It destroys me inside what I have done to BH. I deal with this pain every day, although I know that is pain is greater then mine could ever be.

To his response about me being sorry I got caught , I have stated that getting caught was probably the only way I could have gotten out of what I was doing. I felt that I didn't know how to end it (BH says "you close your legs") because I had built up the hole of my fantasy world so large that I couldn't figure out how to get out of it. I'm am extremely glad it's over - I do feel a deep regret though that I was too cowardess to tell BH. I also am deeply sorry that I wasn't strong enough to stick up for my marriage and BH enough to end it.

Yikes. I think his response would make me stop saying I'm sorry.

I think you can either choose to continue saying it for as long as you feel the need. I would stop expecting a different response from him, say, a more positive response. He seems pretty angry, which is par for the course, and he may always be angry and feel this way to your apologies. Right now, I'm sure it's kind of gratifying to not accept them or throw back at you that you're not really sorry.

Let go of that, that's all his stuff that he's working through and you're internalizing it as your own. As if him saying you're not really sorry means you're not sorry.

Don't look to him to validate how sorry you are. You can't make him believe you. You believe you, and you show it by living it.

((Pizza))

I could have written this post myself.

I wish I had a solution. Casper is right, the response is anger and pain. Saying sorry won't change his reaction. You say it if it's true for you. His response is his position.

BS here

Am trying to put my thoughts into words, so hopefully this makes sense.

As a BS, we are looking backwards at a series of events. For us, well at least for me, it seems pretty apparent all the red flags, all the simple steps that could've been taken to avoid the situation altogether. And, importantly, I focus a lot on ALL the forks my husband came to in the road where he had to make a choice and he chose the OW. I focus on them, because I don't understand how he could choose otherwise. I wonder if that might be going on with your husband when his responses are "close your legs" - in reality, I think there was a pretty simple way out for all APs, so long as you were totally rational, logical, and no longer wanted to be in that situation. I.e. "Wow, this is a messed up situation. Ergo, I remove myself from it."

Who actually thinks like that? Who behaves like that? I personally only know a few who are *that* self-controlled and self-aware.

But, as a BS, we see all the choices to remain involved, all the choices at those forks, and we want to stand there at the fork screaming "if you feel guilty, why are you choosing this road!?"

At essence, at least for me, is a question of how much guilt my husband felt in his affairs. I spent some time pouring through logs, looking for any and all evidence of this guilt he spoke of - i.e. breaks in contact to her, decreased activity, etc. I found nothing.

On reflecting, I found that I really wanted some proof that (a) the man I married was stil there and did still feel guilt and (b) that the man I married has enough self control to be able to reign in himself.

Which is why my husband saying he couldn't stop himself until I found out very difficult to swallow. I interpret that ver simplistically as either he didn't feel guilt, or he had no self-control. And what do I do with either situation going forward with this man? I'd like to say that I believe he can change and grow, but I think a deep part of me says "without a seed, how can it grow? And I'm not finding that seed...."

(I recognize, part of me does, the much deeper and more complex things that factor into this, and now I perceive my husband' guilt as feeding into wanting to escape, rather than a reason to take a different path at each fork, but when I'm in a "how could you do this" mode, I focus on those forks and my answers are similar to your husband's snarks. "you don't answer your phone." "You tell her bye, it's rather simple." in truth, none of this is simple.)

It's a leap of faith. I can't control him, but I want to make healthy choices for me, and I want to make those choices off some indication of him that it is worth the time, effort, emotional energy, etc to invest. But I can't predict the future, so I still seek answers from the past. It's unnerving.

So those rambles aside -

Do you feel vulnerable with your husband? Like when you say you are sorry, are you able to communicate a specific "I'm thinking about x, and I feel y. I am sorry that I z."

That might help?

My husband and I have talked a lot about how it is such a hard balance because Iw ant him to communicate his vulnerabilities with me, while simultaneously having empathy with me, so that I can feel more empathy with him while also understanding his remorse. Wow.

[This message edited by Lark at 11:38 AM, February 11th (Wednesday)]

Caspers, I will continue to say I'm sorry, even I I don't like his response. I want him to know how I feel. His feelings are his feelings, and I'm not expecting them to change, especially due to the length of my A and how I brought him into it, introducing him to

AP and OBS. You're right that I shouldn't need him to validate that I'm sorry. I know that I am . If he ever accepts my apology, it would make me happy, but I know that's a long way down the road.

Wayflost, thanks.

Lark, thank you for the lengthy, thought out response. I appreciate it.

So those rambles aside -

Do you feel vulnerable with your husband? Like when you say you are sorry, are you able to communicate a specific "I'm thinking about x, and I feel y. I am sorry that I z."

First of all, I didn't think you were rambling. What you said makes a lot of sense. Many times it is hard to put myself in his shoes, because he didn't do what I did, but I think about how I would feel if he did this to me. I know that he's trying to make sense out of irrational and nonsensical behavior on my part. Heck, I have a hard time understanding my actions sometimes. I am trying to make sense of my actions and to be able to explain why my path took me in the direction that it did.

Can I be vulnerable? That's hard to say. I think even after 2 years I still find myself putting up walls. An example is with sex - I have a lot of problems with my sexuality due to past promiscuous behavior, etc. sex is extremely hard for me to talk about, even to my IC. I use sex as a connection to men, so they will like me. My sexual issues can cause problems for me fully opening myself up to have a healthy sexual relationship. I do being up my sexuality, but often shut down because I haven't figured out ways to solve my problems. Maybe if I could be fully vulnerable, things would become easier. I'm not sure if this answers your question.

As a BS who has a fairly unrepentant WW (also a chonic people pleaser) she will not say sorry much if ever.

Her sorry for her last affair was weak and meaningless.

In my mind, if you have sat your H down and had that eyeball to eyeball, crying apology, deep sorrow shown and tell him he never deserved any of it and you are very lucky to still have him in your life despite what you did.

IT SHOULD BE OVER.

Sorry should equal "I wish I never did it". If you said that, Done.

If the BS needs to hear this over and over and over to BELIEVE it, so be it. And that might be where you are at. He does not (Yet) believe your sorry.

Bh here, today is one year for me, I know I recently had a conversation where she was "sorry" and I responded the same way as your husband. As much as you think your making him feel better you probably can't. Unless this happened or happens to you, you will not understand his pain. All you can do is keep trying. There are days when just "I'm sorry" feels condescending. That's why you probably get a look that you think could kill. If he is still angry, then saying sorry won't help. If he ever gets out of that stage he may accept it, I really haven't yet, and like I said today is one year since dday.

Bh here, today is one year for me, I know I recently had a conversation where she was "sorry" and I responded the same way as your husband. As much as you think your making him feel better you probably can't. Unless this happened or happens to you, you will not understand his pain. All you can do is keep trying. There are days when just "I'm sorry" feels condescending. That's why you probably get a look that you think could kill. If he is still angry, then saying sorry won't help. If he ever gets out of that stage he may accept it, I really haven't yet, and like I said today is one year since dday.

BS here. The hurt is immense. And anything that has to do with the affair hurts and can unfortunately lead to a emotionally charged action. When you get to a place where you can understand his reaction, you will be moving along in the R process.

You need to address your issues, no matter how much they hurt you because without doing that your marriage and any future relationships I wide open. You need to let your husband know about your issues but also work through them with IC.

I will continue to say I'm sorry, even I I don't like his response. I want him to know how I feel. His feelings are his feelings

Brava! And his feelings sometimes won't make sense to you, and that's ok.

"If you're sorry, then you wouldn't have done it."

Irrational much?

Since it's evoking this kind of response from BH, consider phasing "I'm sorry" out of your lexicon, and replacing it with more descriptive phrases. Like, "It was so wrong and selfish of me to betray you like that, and I will never do it again."

I DID do it and I AM sorry about it

Yep. You acted in a way that was compatible with your circumstances at the time, or you wouldn't have done it! That's not an excuse or justification, it's cold hard logic. Looking back now, you realize how messed up you were, and are totally committed to repairing the damage you've done and making the future better.

He does not (Yet) believe you're sorry.

This is evident. Something Shrink One told me early on, that really helped me, was: deliver the message, and then let go of the outcome. You've delivered the message, which IMO is commendable. BH's choice to disbelieve or rebut you is completely valid for him, and I encourage you to validate his opinions, but you are under no obligation to agree.

I just had a conversation with BH over the phone. I let him know when I am posting so that he can read what I say, however he cannot read them at work due to his filtering. Anyway, I told him about the topic and asked him if he feels I'm sorry. He stated that apologies don't do anything, because an A is not an apologizable offense. It's an inappropriate response to a monumental offense. The only acceptable response would have been to not do it. He feels as if he doesn't know me because the person he knew could have never done what I did. He said I'd have to understand it from his point of view of someone who could have never done what I've done. He has said in therapy before that he feels that I am remorseful.

are you guys in MC?

Untangling what "I'm sorry" means to each person is... an insightful discussion. It isn't something I ever really thought about, as I thought I'm sorry meant I'm sorry meant I'm sorry. As in, I'm sorry I chose this. Looking back, I see it has caused pain. Or I feel remorse for having done it to begin with. I am sorry."

Not too long ago, I was in a mom-group and they were doing their typical Mom-Wars. Anyway, the topic of "I'm sorry" came up, and whether they teach their toddler/preschool/older child to say it after harming someone. Several said they model being sorry, but they don't require it, as "I'm Sorry" has become a perfunctory tool of "it's done, I apologize, we move forward." Others had other ideas about what "i'm Sorry" means, and when it can't even be applied. Can you say you're sorry if something is intentional? The conversation eventually moved to teaching empathy and validation, as those are useful pretty universally.

anyway, just a thought that came up reading the thread

Whew, Lark. You hit the nail on the head. There is a tendency for BSes to think rationally about what is an inherently irrational situation. We see a series of choices, where most waywards experience it as a slide. . . a gradual loosening, that starts dissolving small boundaries, and then bigger ones. A fantasy world full of self deception and deception is built up like a house of cards, and the pull is very strong. And, the penalty for telling is so high! Devastation on everyone's part. My husband called it "the trap." He got in, and he couldn't get out without my help. He confessed, but only when he thought I was onto the affair.

Pizza - were you sorry you got caught? Does your husband know the truth about that?

He feels as if he doesn't know me because the person he knew could have never done what I did

BS here. Yes makes perfect sence, but I will go farther, he is having a tantrum because the fantasy he projected on to you, the moral condition or standards also projected on to you were lost.

He is suffering the grief of loss, IMHO, he needs a new fantasy about you, since he is a man, and men have "junk and hormones a plenty", perhaps you can be a new fantasy for him HINT HINT.

He has to get over this, this is starting to sound somewhat cry baby like. Sorry for that I'll accept the 2 x 4s if needed.

PS - hey pizza, i see its been a year since you posted your story. Very brave of you to be so forthcoming, I am proud of you.

[This message edited by steppingup at 3:07 PM, February 11th (Wednesday)]

"If you're sorry, then you wouldn't have done it."

As a BS who's also 2 years out, this statement really bothered me. Occasionally I would raise some hell the first 12-15 months, but I never had a problem with her apologies. Got one out of the blue just the other day, and it still is nice to hear.

I guess my reaction to that would be - If you don't think she's genuinely sorry, why are you still with her two years later?

I'm sure the answer is that he really loves you. And this is not an attempt to minimize your prior behavior or his pain in any way. But as a BS I think we sometimes need to get out of our own way and take yes for an answer.

Pizza

BH here. Sounds like MPB is still in tremendous pain - pain he has not processed. I am sorry.

I can tell you that when my fww apologized for specific things, not just "sorry I screwed up," it became easier for me to accept her apologies. I am not sure if that is helpful to you at all.

Have you tried writing out apologies for him or delivering the message in other ways? Truly, I am not trying to paint this as your failure. MPB is finding it hard to really hear you. But perhaps some other way(s) of apologizing might have more meaning to him. Maybe some other form of expression can help ease his fears and pain. I do not know, but can only hope.

And please let MPB know we would like him to come back. He is always welcome over in the Menz thread.

The pain of infidelity is like no pain I have ever felt....and I know my FWH would agree ....

I was thinking the same as LARK...as a mom I was always telling my kids if they hurt someone " what do you say!"

Kids say I'm sorry and then they run off and play some more!but a TRUE I'm sorry shown with actions as well as words is true remorse...I BELIEVE you are sorry...just as I believe my FWH is truly sorry....and oh yea I said very early on things like sorry you got caught????

His response to me was that I threw him a life line...he was so f'ed up in his thinking he truly thought he could not find a way out...27 months out from his 2+ year A I see how messed up he WAS....I have empathy for him....what a way to live.....you are 1 year out....I think the 2nd year is harder because it is all about the reality of what really happened.....and it doesn't feel good at all knowing that the person you THOUGHT had your back.....didn't .....but that was then and this now...I think you have been given great advice.....as a BS I appreciate the I'm sorry followed with a specific xyz....

I wish you BOTH peace

Step

If the BS needs to hear this over and over and over to BELIEVE it, so be it. And that might be where you are at. He does not (Yet) believe your sorry.

Maybe you're right - maybe he doesn't believe it. It just means I need to work harder to make him believe it. I know this will take time - I'm not going anywhere.

BS here. Yes makes perfect sence, but I will go farther, he is having a tantrum because the fantasy he projected on to you, the moral condition or standards also projected on to you were lost.

He has said in MC something along these lines.

PS - hey pizza, i see its been a year since you posted your story. Very brave of you to be so forthcoming, I am proud of you.

Thanks! It's actually been 2 years since D-day (January 24) and joining this site. I appreciate you saying I'm brave - sometimes it is hard though to share how I am feeling and about all of the yucky stuff that caused me to do what I did.

hurt

You need to address your issues, no matter how much they hurt you because without doing that your marriage and any future relationships I wide open. You need to let your husband know about your issues but also work through them with IC.

I am working hard to address my issues. I am becoming more comfortable in the last few years since D-day talking about them, but I held so much back for so long, it takes time to learn the healthy habit of effective and vulnerable communication.

20wrongs

Since it's evoking this kind of response from BH, consider phasing "I'm sorry" out of your lexicon, and replacing it with more descriptive phrases. Like, "It was so wrong and selfish of me to betray you like that, and I will never do it again."

I like this idea. Thank you.

Lark

Yes, we have been in MC for just about 2 years. We started a few weeks after D-day.

Can you say you're sorry if something is intentional? The conversation eventually moved to teaching empathy and validation, as those are useful pretty universally.

Interesing thought. I had posted before about not having an A to intentionally hurt BH, even though it was, and could have only been, the outcome. It was about my issues and dysfunctions. I feel deep sorry and remorse for not only destroying my BH, but destroying OBS, who I claimed that I was friends with (yes, as twisted as it was, I legitimately believed that I loved and cared about her. )

bionicgal

Pizza - were you sorry you got caught? Does your husband know the truth about that?

I am sorry for what I did, not sorry for it coming out. As much devastation as it caused for everyone involved, the A needed to end and I was too weak and cowardess to end it - hell, I was too much of a coward to tell my BH I was having an A when he would ask me flat out, "You would never cheat on me, right?" I would lie and say no, even though I was cheating on him. I am working to become a better person and fix myself to be a safe person.

Sal

I guess my reaction to that would be - If you don't think she's genuinely sorry, why are you still with her two years later?

I'm sure the answer is that he really loves you. And this is not an attempt to minimize your prior behavior or his pain in any way. But as a BS I think we sometimes need to get out of our own way and take yes for an answer.

I know that there are a myriad of reasons that he is still with me, and I am so appreciative of this gift every day. And I hope that one day he can accept how deeply sorry I am for my actions.

reallyscrewedup7

Have you tried writing out apologies for him or delivering the message in other ways? Truly, I am not trying to paint this as your failure. MPB is finding it hard to really hear you. But perhaps some other way(s) of apologizing might have more meaning to him. Maybe some other form of expression can help ease his fears and pain. I do not know, but can only hope.

I did write out a lenghty apology to him a few months after D-day, but I haven't written something extensive since. This is something that I will work on doing. Perhaps then it will make more sense what I am thinking.

And please let MPB know we would like him to come back. He is always welcome over in the Menz thread.

mpb is on SI just about every day, reading people's posts. I know he hasn't posted in awhile. I will relay your message to him.

hopefull77

Thank you for sharing. On the 24th of this month, we will be 25 months past D-day. It has been harder this year, because you're right, the reality has been there. I have been in therapy 2x a week for IC for almost the last two years and well as MC (we used to go 1x a week, but for the past 6 months we've been down to 2x a month)

STANDING OVATION TO PIZZA!

BS here. There are a lot of good recommendations in this thread.

For me, it is comforting when she says she is sorry. More so when she is really opening up her feelings, being vulnerable and not holding anything back. I appreciate it every time she says it, every time she thanks me for staying, but when the emotions are also there I can feel it.

People handle trauma in different ways. Some people are stubborn, some people can not deal with a changing world. I wish I had an answer for you on how to make him believe. It may have to come from an outside source, someone he respects, to lead the way and show him it is ok to accept your apology.

Kudos to you for putting in the effort and going the distance you have.