SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Everyday brings clearer vision and clearer thinking for me. I have been complete shit to my BH for years. When I finally started to see what I had done to this wonderful man I had claimed to love, I knew that in the year prior to my A that I had begun to cross boundaries and behave outrageously but I still thought that I had been a great wife for the first 10 years of our M. I knew/know that I can be a great person again and have been working to make changes to myself every minute of every day. But the last week I have started to really look at my behavior throughout our entire M and my behavior when I was younger. I have come to the realization that I have been a child. Not just a child, but a spoiled, manipulative, whiny, bratty, horrible child. If I didn't get my way, I knew just what to say or do to get my way. When I was a kid, I was the oldest of 4 and had to fight a little to get heard or attention. I learned how to say or do things to get that attention or recognition for what I wanted. Unfortunately, this behavior didn't stop when I grew up and got married. I know we got married young, I was 18 and he was 21, but that is no excuse. I should have learned to compromise better, to deal with my disappointments better, and to recognize that life isn't always fair. In real life, we don't always get our way and what we want, and acting like a spoiled child to make sure I get what I want will only lead to me being a bully and manipulative. That is what has happened up until now. If I didn't get my way, I would throw a tantrum or sorts, use whatever tactic I had to in order to get my BH or others, to bend to what I wanted. I do love my BH, I loved him from the beginning but I didn't know how to love him the right way to love him completely. I learned a long time ago that the opposite of love isn't hate. The opposite of love is SELFISHNESS. This is so true. I have been selfish for so long, my entire life essentially, so how could I show true love to the man I married? I loved him the best I could and then when my morals took a nose dive, I buried all my emotions so I wouldn't have to look at the monster I had become. I continued to feed the selfishness and lie to myself, to everyone around me, until my emotions and feelings were buried under miles of lies that I believed were truth. I buried the love that I did have for him and the only room left was filled with negative emotions, destructive comments and actions, nagging, and more lies. Two months ago, when I had my figurative punch in the face and began to see the devastation I had caused, the pain I have caused, I realized that I had to change. I had and have to grow up, start being an adult and not a child. I didn't know the extent of my changes and I am still working on just how much I have to change, but I KNEW I HAD TO CHANGE. This wasn't a "I will change when I am ready," "I will start changing tomorrow" or "I will just see what happens and if I see something I will change it" kind of need. This was a "I need to change or I may never find myself." It was a "who have I become and how do I fix this" kind of change. I know so many people question sudden change, people are questioning my sudden change on here all the time (my BH started a thread today about my changing and said I could comment there but that is his place to find support). It seems sudden because it is sudden. I decided not to procrastinate or put off my changing but decided to give myself over completely to changing. I am giving my every effort to change myself and become who I know I can be. Change isn't comfortable. I have seen that on here and in books and in talking with others. Change is UNCOMFORTABLE! It is uncomfortable for the person who is making the changes (me) and it is uncomfortable for the people who see these changes (my BH). It is also uncomfortable for my friends, family members and anyone else who sees these changes I am making. Changing isn't easy, especially when I had gotten comfortable living with my lies and in this hell I created. I had/have lied so much that they didn't feel like lies anymore. But now that I see my lies and this hell for what it really is, I will not allow it to continue. I will not continue to live a lie or force those around me to live my lies. I am rebuilding who I am and learning to deal with disappointments, learning to cope with problems, I am learning to not lie, and I am learning how to let go. Let go of being selfish, being manipulative, being entitled, of being impatient. I am learning to let go of who I was and who I had allowed myself to become. I am learning to let go of the outcome of this disaster I made of my M. I told my BH this week that I had killed his "first wife" who he is grieving over and I was now purposely killing his "second wife" who we both feel is an evil succubus. All she has done is take, take and taken more, until I drained our M of any love, happiness or joy. I am changing how I love. I am learning to love wholly. I am learning to love selflessly, to give completely to those around me and not expect anything in return. I am not manipulating them or giving with strings attached. I am just giving my love, comfort, compassion, encouragement and hope. I love my amazing BH now more than I ever have. I know he hasn't changed, but I have. I am finally seeing him and allowing my feelings and emotions to flow. I am not putting up walls or shutting down my emotions and feelings. If I feel sad or disappointed or loving or caring, then I am allowing myself to feel those emotions and to express them. I am learning how to love the right way and to show that love the right way. I don't want to compete with him, or manipulate his feelings to get what I want, I am not trying to use my emotions or feelings to get anything. My changing is making my BH uncomfortable, and I understand that and respect his right to be skeptical of me. My change does seem sudden and it is adding another layer to the emotional roller coaster he is on. He isn't sure if I am changing for real or if these changes will be permanent or if I will stop changing if he starts to believe me or accept the changes. He worries that the changes are only on the surface or that I am doing them to manipulate him. I completely understand his side of it. I would be leery too of seeing such sudden change in my spouse. Only time will tell the difference. Only seeing the continuation of these changes in me will let him see that I am sincere and earnest in my efforts. I have spoken to him about it and I know my words mean absolutely nothing right now, but I am viewing it as a way for him to hear what my plan is. If I tell him what changes I am making, want to make and just how far I want to go to make these changes, then he can tell and see if I am measuring up to my goals. If I don't say anything about the changes I am making and am working towards, then he won't know if I am giving 10% or 110% to make those changes a reality. I will not let him have room to doubt that I am giving my all to make changes in myself. And I am not making these changes to get him to stay with me or to make him happy. I am making these changes to myself, for myself. I want to be the best me. I have never been the best me but I know I can work hard, make the changes, and become a great friend, great woman, fantastic mother, and amazing partner/wife/compliment. If who I become is worthy of my BH's love and time, then I know we will both be happier, but I will not have my motivation for change only be the chance of R. I am my motivation for change. I am worth fighting for. R will be a benefit of the positive changes I make and I will know that I have worked hard and earned my chance to be with the man I love and want to be with.

CBWW

No stop sign; Here's former BS; so I'll post

He isn't sure if I am changing for real or if these changes will be permanent or if I will stop changing if he starts to believe me or accept the changes. He worries that the changes are only on the surface or that I am doing them to manipulate him. I completely understand his side of it.

I exchanged some post with your husband in the reconciliation forum so I know your story. It's actually much deeper than that. It's not that he's punishing or playing mind games with you. If you want a true a chance at recovery you should actually encourage him to do so. Why? You must understand that as standing opposed to forgiveness, which is done actually for his own sake and the ending of his own suffering, while he even does not require for this process to be in contact with you, for him reconciliation means among others a sort of risk management. This in return requires indeed the cooperation of both of you. What he is doing is actually exactly that.

To reconcile with you he must feel that you do not represent any threat anymore neither to his emotional, mental and even physical health and well-being. He has not so much means to do it and this is one of them. See it as a kind of hope, because if he would not have any hope that you both have a future together he would simply give up and do nothing. Him doing this means he sees a true chance at reconciliation. You mentioned that you are impatient so you will have to work on that, because from my experience the path to forgiveness and acceptance is a long and a hard road. From what I've seen he is a strong man that can do it you just need that patience too.

[This message edited by Sartukav at 1:04 PM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

You speak a lot about the changes you are making... I do this too. What are these changes? What have you done to stop lying and manipulating? What actionable items can your BS see?

I ask these questions not because I doubt your thinking or resolve, but because without being able to specify how you're actually changing to your BS it will be only words (I would know). I also suffer from a lot of the character flaws that you've mentioned and also want to change them so maybe there's something that you're doing that I can try as well! Good luck!

Sartukav, thank you for posting. I agree completely with you. I don't think my BH is punishing me or playing mind games with me at all. He has been honest with me and open and let's me know that he isn't sure what to make of the changes I am making. If I were him, I would feel the same way. I am encouraging him to focus on himself, on finding what he needs and wants in order to heal. I have let him know that I am here to help him in any way I can and that I am not asking him to fight for us or for me right now. I am not asking him to forgive me nor have I. I know that forgiveness is what we give ourselves, not someone else. I also know that if he gets to a point where he wants to fight for us, then I will be ecstatic but that time is not now. That is not important now. He is important now. His health, as you mentioned, emotional, mental, and physical, that is what is the main focus right now for him. I am fighting for me and I am fighting to prove that I want us. I am fighting for us. I am giving him all the love, comfort, strength and whatever else he needs, so he can fight for himself. He only has to focus on himself. He doesn't have to trust my words or changes right now, only time will prove that I am backing up my words with actions or not. I am not being impatient, I have not set time limits or restrictions on when things need to be decided or choices made. That is not something I will ever do to my BH. I will not ever tell him that enough time has passed or that he should get over it already. I will never tell him that I am done supporting him or being here for him. I know I am impatient so I am working extra hard to be patient with myself, with my BH and in everything I do. All of those behaviors, attitudes, words that I have displayed for the last 7 years and longer are not welcome in me anymore. They are not upbuilding, encouraging, compassionate, loving, kind, patient or caring. I have spent too much time being negative, destructive and tearing down those I love. I only want to love, and build up those I love, with my BH being at the forefront. I am working at being a safe person, emotionally, mentally and physically, for him. I am willing and want to give him whatever he needs for him to feel safe and secure. This includes D on his terms; truly listening to what he is saying and if he mentions something within my power to change, doing so; showing him that I want to be here with him and doing whatever is needed to show that I only want what is best for him, even if that means I am not in the picture. I know the last two sound contradictory, but I want to be with him but I also know that if he chooses to not be with me, I will love him enough to respect that choice. He deserves to be happy, safe, loved, wanted, respected and appreciated. I have not given him those things but I want to and I can give him those things going forward if we are together and R or if he decides he can't R.

I'll also take advantage of permission to post: I have posted on his new thread that I am now rooting for you both to come through this together.

That said, I hope you understand that many of the forum members who are fBS are skeptical about your lack of specific detail. I am convinced you are remorseful for what happened in the past, but not convinced your husband knows all of it. The difficult timeline for the long-past affair is a great start, but very recently you seemed headed down that path again, at least in his eyes. Can you clarify whether you had ever started or gone down that path with others in the intervening years? What caused the most recent one if it was so long between affairs?

I believe you want to make yourself a better person; if there is any more TT to come please, please do that now. Surely you see that delaying will cause him to walk away forever.

I will close as I opened: I really hope you will come through this together in a healthy relationship.

lookingforhope79, I am making changes to everything I do and think. You asked about the lying and manipulating first, so I will tell you. I have lied about stuff my whole life, I realize that now. It wasn't always big lies or lies outright, but exaggerations or white lies. For example, by BH was 36 for 2 years because when someone asked me his age once and his b-day was a few months away, I just rounded. Well, it was actually only a few months after he turned 35 so for the next 8 months or so, I just said he was 36, then he actually turned 36 and he had to think about how old he actually was. I have done that kind of thing forever, just a little exaggeration or if I don't know an answer, I just blurt something out, whether it is true or not. Now, I am thinking before I answer. If I don't know the answer, I will not make something up or guess, I will say I am not sure but I will find out or whatever the appropriate reply is. I am doing this in all aspects of my life, including work or time away from my family. If I am late to work because I was slow getting ready or hit the snooze button one too many times, I tell my boss the truth. I don't make up excuses/lies about traffic being horrible or how the kids had me distracted with something or some other lie. As far as the manipulation, what benefit is there to manipulating people, especially the ones we love the most, into doing what we want them to do? I have had to realize that I won't always get my way nor should I. Truly loving someone isn't about making someone do what you want, it is about sharing and compromise. It is a little harder to explain the change in this area, but I am going to try to. Before, I would tell my BH what I wanted, let's say for dinner, or I would demand it. I would keep making comments about what I wanted and why it was the best choice or option. It wouldn't matter if he was craving something else or wanted to do something different, my opinion was the only one. If it started looking like we wouldn't have what I wanted for dinner, I would pout. I would sulk and make comments under my breath and basically brow-beat my BH into giving in to what I wanted. I acted like a spoiled baby to get what I wanted and manipulated the whole situation. Now, if I want something for dinner, I will let my BH know I have a craving for it but I will ask what he is in the mood for. If he says something different, then I check out the menu or things I like about his choice. I may not be super excited about it and may have a moment that I get disappointed, but I get back to finding something I like about what he is choosing or we talk and find something that satisfies both of our cravings. We come to a compromise and something we are both happy with. I know that is a cheesy analogy, but I love food and it is easy to relate to. I am finding that there isn't any joy or satisfaction in manipulating other to do what you want. It is an empty satisfaction and your loved ones only end up resenting you or feeling unimportant, not cared about or for. Another change is in how I view affection and attention. If you have ready my BH threads, you know that I have nagged and belittled his efforts at giving me affection. I would criticize how he kissed me, hugged me or held my hand. I criticized if he didn't buy me the drink I liked when we stop at a store, or petty little things that show how childish I have been. Now, I am recognizing and appreciating the effort he puts into showing me affection or showing me that he is thinking of me. I also realize that I can take the initiative to be affectionate and don't have to wait for him to come to me or demand that he comes to me. I have 2 legs and 2 arms, so I can make the effort too. I am also trying to change how I react to disappointments. Instead of sulking, pouting, having a day long pity party or turning into the uber-bitch from hell, I am choosing to not let it get to me. I still have my little pity party, but I don't let it last more than a few minutes. Then I snap out of it, put on my game face, and get back to appreciating the moment and figure out how to make the best of that time. I am also trying to change not taking everything personally. If my BH needs space, he isn't purposely shutting me out or rejecting me, he just needs space and time to think or sort out what is going on. I don't let it get to me, which is hard sometimes, but I am learning to look at the bigger picture and not just my self-portrait. I am trying to find ways to contribute positively to our family, to my husband and to my life in general. In my interactions with strangers at the store, to my co-workers, to my family. I am striving to show kindness, compassion, patience, caring, encouragement, upbuilding words. I am also learning to set my own boundaries. I am learning that I can say NO to someone or an event and the world doesn't end. I am realizing that I can stick to my values, the ones I am rebuilding, and be a better person. That I don't have to compromise who I am to be fun, liked, or have a good time. I am having a better time and am happier in knowing that I am building up my core values and finding joy in healthy, positive activities and friendships.

CBWW

I'll have a specific question to you. Now, I'm not doing it to discourage you or because I think you're lying. I do this to let you understand that from a BS perspective and give you some direction. People can indeed change; however, change is very hard and slow. Old habits die very hard. Change is also not smooth. There are always setbacks. It's almost never a linear path. Nothing in life is linear. My question is have you thought about how to ensure your husband is not hurt again when you're walking that hard path to change and improve yourself and when inevitably setbacks will happen again (I don't mean here cheating but the behavior that led to it for example: lying, selfishness, impatience, manipulation, entitlement and so on). Your husband is doing now a sort of risk management and you providing this answers will be a great help to rebuild trust among other things you have to do as well as to rebuild yor own dignity and integrity in his eyes. You must understand many poeple are dealing with entitelemnt issues, but most do not cross the line. The difference are boundaries and coping skills (and indeed wisdom and insight as well). What have you done in this erea

Did you taught about concrete boundaries and coping skills? What have you done to protect your husband's safety while you're going this blessed path of change and self-growth? You must understand that it is something which sits daily and constantly on his mind. Wanting to change, the motivation to do it is very important yet changing itself is very difficult. You'll have practically as you already stated to practically learn all your coping methods, skills, reaction and so on from new. It's like a small child learning just to walk and cope with life. When walking this path alone always remember that you are not alone and take him into consideration. The more you'll learn to put his needs ahead than yours, the more you'll learn to be selfless, the more you'll compensate the selfishness you mentioned above. There is much more to this but I don't want to make the post to long.

[This message edited by Sartukav at 1:46 PM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

Spokenfor, the lack of details on here has been slightly deliberate. I am using this site as a support and journal of sorts, but the details I discuss with my BH in person. No, there were no other A's during the interim, not EA or PA. I did try to change initially but with only rug-sweeping and denial, I couldn't really change. It was more a superficial change not a lasting, permanent change. That is what I am fixing in me now. I am working on the reasons for me starting down that path again recently, and a big part is not ever addressing my boundary issues. Add to that a very addictive personality and me refusing to "see" that I was doing anything questionable and I was at the beginning stages of an EA. As for the TT, I am done with it. I don't remember every detail from my A 4 years ago, but everything that I do remember I have told to my BH. He is getting my old deleted text messages and I told him I want to sit with him and go over them. I don't want there to be anything else or for him to think that I left something out on purpose. I also told him I will gladly take a Poly.

Sartukav

What am I doing to be safe? What am I doing to protect my BH while I make these changes and the inevitable set-back or mistake happens? I am owning up to my mistakes, owning up to my flaws and apologizing when I make them. It would be unrealistic to expect perfection of myself. I know I will and have made mistakes. But it is how I handle them and learn from them that makes the difference. I apologize when I do make mistakes or mess up. I admit to it. I don't use it to justify or as an excuse to stop making these changes. I don't use the mistake as a reason to give up and say "I can't do this, this is just who I am." I use the set-backs and mistakes to know how to handle the situation better the next time. As for boundaries and coping skills, I made a list of my own personal boundaries and shared them with my BH. I encourage him to add to my list. He has also given me a list of the boundaries he expects from me. And coping skills, I am finding healthy ways to cope. I am trying not to turn to alcohol or drugs(marijuana was the only one I used), which I have done for way too long. I am finding new hobbies,journaling or taking a few minutes to pray and meditate to compose myself. I am also talking more with my BH when something is difficult for me. I am not expecting him to soothe or comfort me but I want him to know what I am feeling.

No stop sign.

I'm really glad you're back and posting, and it's very encouraging to read what you've been posting! Best wishes.

I would recommend both you and your BH google "Toxic parents pdf" and read it, it's a great book available online for free and I think it might help you two tremendously.

Also, google "No more mr. nice guy pdf", it's a great book available online for free and it helped me tremendously. Please give it a look and see if it's something that might help him individually and you two in forging a more equal and emotionally healthy relationship.

Keep talking to us, we're here to listen, help and support!

Best wishes

I would tell my BH what I wanted, let's say for dinner, or I would demand it. I would keep making comments about what I wanted and why it was the best choice or option. It wouldn't matter if he was craving something else or wanted to do something different, my opinion was the only one. If it started looking like we wouldn't have what I wanted for dinner, I would pout. I would sulk and make comments under my breath and basically brow-beat my BH into giving in to what I wanted. I acted like a spoiled baby to get what I wanted and manipulated the whole situation.

1, Using this above as an example of your manipulation and selfishness; and

2, hearing that you were one of four siblings and you learned how to gain various methods to get attention to need to in order to get your share; and

3, hearing that you, from this, learned how to become manipulative;

My question is: Do you think you saved this manipulation ONLY for your husband?

For example, I have read somewhere that you went to see the affair partner and he did nothing for you - you had to go to see him, you had sex with him at the end of a ditch - and you thought you loved him - yet at the same time, you used to get angry about your husband if he didn't get you the drink that you liked in the store.

Certainly, you could not have behaved that behavior as an employee to your bosses and co-workers, or to your 20-something "friends," and it is obvious you did not treat that way towards your affair partner, who it seems exactly the opposite, he had to do zero and you had to do everything for him.

So, the question is, do you think you saved this selfish "evil succubus" ONLY for your husband?

And if so, why only him?

And if not, how were you selfish to the others you were close to you, like bosses, co-workers, and "friends"?

Hobbes, I am reading Toxic Parents and my BH has read No More Mr. Nice Guy. I truly want us to have a healthy relationship, and I am realizing that up to now, it hasn't been a healthy relationship.

Wk55hn, I have been manipulative in all of my relationships to some extent. I haven't only been that way with my BH nor did I save the selfish evil succubus just for him. I think you can agree that just like not all lies are the same, not all manipulation is the same. Acting like a spoiled brat and pouting isn't going to be the same manipulation that works for all situations. I thought about your question all evening and really examined how my behavior has been in all of my relationships, during the A with the OM, at work, with friends and with my BH. I have been manipulative in all of my relationships. And I have come to believe for me, manipulation and entitlement have gone hand in hand. At work, I felt entitled to work certain hours, say 9-5. My boss had requested that I get here by 8:30. I didn't really want to so I would have reasons that I was repeatedly late: traffic was bad, the kids had to be driven in to school, I overslept or whatever reason I had. Some days those reasons were true, but some they were not. Slowly, I started getting to work closer and closer to 9am. I was manipulating the situation to get what I felt I was entitled to. My boss would accept my excuses or reasons and eventually said that it was fine for me to be at work by 9am. I had manipulated the situation to the outcome I wanted. I have done similar things to my "friends" and acquaintances. I am now trying my hardest to not be manipulative, not be entitled. I don't want to manipulate people into doing what I want or what I feel I deserve or how I think I deserve to be treated. And I am applying this to ALL aspects of my life, not just my personal relationships. I am working at being honest and sincere in my efforts, words, actions, in everything that I do. I know it may not be a visible change yet, but I know that I am taking the initiative to be better. To work hard for myself and for those I have promised to work for, I am working to earn my self-respect and integrity back. I know that I am giving my full effort to my job, my family, my friends and most importantly, my BH and children. Anything that I receive now and going forward will not be because I have manipulated people into it, but it will be because I have worked my ass off and earned it.