SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Gotta love that Chardonnay!

1) The therapist sounds like someone looking to squeeze out money from you two.

2) Some will keep lying to their death. or your wife is lying for the same reason you stay in the marriage. because of your son and you might leave if you find out.

She spectacularly failed the polygraph tests. Now the focus of healing and therapy is pulled on to her. In other words, the issues stopped being about lies and infidelity, and instead became about her own deeply trouble past and what a struggle it will be for her to heal. The focus is no longer on the marriage, on her failing the polygraph tests, or her lies, or her minimizing and backtracking(she may have been in a hotel room with him or it may have been a dream?? What??) or on you, the one whose life has been smashed by all of this.

One thing in this crazy mess is clear: your relationship with her will never be repaired, because she is either unwilling or unable to do her part in healing it. You can't fix it by yourself. That sucks, and it isn't fair, and it hurts like hell. But that is unfortunately the hand you have been dealt.

See my profile about trying R with a narcissistic WW who refuses to engage the issues around the A.

I seem to say this a lot on SI: "Don't be me, dude."

I cannot make a decision without the truth. I am willing to consider a real reconciliation but only with full disclosure. I am being consumed by the not knowing. It is haunting my waking and sleeping hours.

Gently - you do know the truth. You just don't want to accept it.

She will never admit everything. What she admits, she recants soon after. What makes you think she would ever come clean?

So, are you willing to live like this for the duration? Only you can answer that question. If you are, good luck. It will be difficult and the gnawing gut aches will eat you alive. If you can't, detach, get things in order and make your exit plan.

I agree with Lucky to have me.

I know you are grappling with lepers in your head!

You need to get out of the state of mind you are in. We aren't telling you what to do, we are trying to be your mirror! Do you want a magic mirror, that only shows you what your heart desires? or do you want the mirror to reflect reality?

I don't envy the choice you have to make, but I also don't think you are able to make an informed choice about any of this.

Acceptance eludes you at present. Help yourself, so you can help your kids and then maybe you will be able to make a decision about what your future will and will not have in it!

Its not rocket science, its surviving infidelity! Rocket science is nothing comparatively!

Keep coming back,

(((hugs)))

Want this to stop

You know the truth, that is obvious, but you want to hear it from her which is understandable. You can give her an ultimatum and a time frame. She tells you the whole truth or you walk.

{{{hugs}}}

I'm glad I am not the only one who thought the advice of sticking through your WW is bogus. Are you sure that the therapist is even a license therapist? Plus I have to question the authenticity of your WW having been abused.

I get wanting to know the truth. However you two can only move forward with reconciliation if she is willing to be honest with you. She doesn't want to and at this point you may need to come to face the fact that you will never know the complete truth.

Just got back from vacation and wanted to thank everyone that offered advice and support.

I wanted to clarify a few things:

1. I am in IC and am getting a lot out of it.

2. WW is also in IC but has "fired" 2 previous ICs and with one she feels is a good fit. The firings concern me very much.

3. We are in MC and have 2-hr session 1x a week. I feel she is very good but we aren't really making a lot of progress. Who knows.

4. We have seen a second MC who has 40 years experience and conducts weekend marriage crisis retreats privately for couples on the verge of divorce and also multi-couple workshops. She is Gottman-trained and specializes in EFT. She told me I needed tons of therapy myself (including EMDR for PTSD) and needed to be there for my wife if she were to be successful in her own therapy. She also said I might as well stay with WW because I will duplicate the problems in a new relationship if not adequately addressed. She is licensed and highly trained. I think she uses a save the marriage at any cost approach...ends justify the means. NOT SEEING HER ANYMORE!

5. I am confident that WW is not seeing OM anymore whatsoever. I am also not concerned about another EA/PA whatsoever.

It's the daily continuation of lies that is paralyzing me.

Our vacation was great...I am very adept at rug sweeping but now that I am back and the summer is over, kids going to school. Back to my part-time job of processing my reality and obcessing about the "truth."

Hope you all are still out there..

[This message edited by DoubleZero at 11:36 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

DoubleZero -

Way back on my first DDay my (now)xWW was seeing a therapist who told her she thought she might be borderline PD (BPD and NPD share a lot of traits). When I told my therapist that, he told me it would take 2-3 years of my WW working on herself, before she could work on the marriage. He also told me that in his experience, BPDs don't change.

I stayed. I thought I could help my wife; support her. For better or worse, right?

Well. 8 years later and:

10 different guys (at least), a near foreclosure, two near evictions, complete wipe out of my savings (I make >$150k/yr), her trying to kill herself (twice), my 15 yo DD trying to kill herself, my 13yo son not being in school for 2 years due to "anxiety", and her not being able to hold a job for more than 4 months...

My divorce got finalized. But I still have to deal with her expectations that I will still support her and be her "friend" and comfort. (and I'm still trying to get custody of my two youngest (oldest is in college) - gotta love the courts)

The effects on you have been profound, as you well know. You probably do need a lot of IC.

But think of your kids. What kind of damage is being done to them?

As HealingRoad said: "Don't be me, dude"

Get yourself and your kids away from her. ASAP.

[NB: My wife was never officially diagnosed as BPD or NPD, but she displays a lot of traits from both. She has been diagnosed bipolar and ADHD. She also doesn't see a therapist for more than a couple of months, then changes therapists. I truly believe she is NPD and possibly both BPD/NPD (not uncommon)].

[This message edited by WornDown at 12:04 PM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

you need to listen to Worndown, Doublezero. His story is so sad but thankfully he extracted himself from that tough situation and is better off for it.

A 20 year affair ???? I don't know how one gets over that. You could be better off too

Western- I think she has been in love with him for 20 years but it was more of a crush at first. I believe their relationship morphed into an EA around 2004 and ended 2012 when WW became a SAHM.

At some point, I am certain that it became a PA but have no idea when it crossed the line.

She continues to deprive me of the truth which is what is destroying me.

I am very worried about the NPD over time. She is love bombing/hoovering me right now which feels great...like the woman I married. I know it wont last.

Healing Road- I hear you and will not "become you." I already don't want to be me! Help me...cannot find your story on your profile! Really want your insights!

Worn Down- My god man. I feel for you brother. I don't think I am dealing with the severity of issues that you did/are but who knows. I am very vigilant.

Thanks to you all...

[This message edited by DoubleZero at 6:14 PM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

did you consider a polygraph, Doublezero ?

It may sound extreme but it is the one way you may get answers

Double Zero

Like others have said this has morphed from lying and cheating to excuses of disorders . The facts are simple

(1) adults do not carry on love affairs for twenty years and not act on it sexually .

(2) you have done three independent well researched polygraph tests with totally different examiners and she has failed beyond a doubt

(3) she has basically told you accept my explanation and lies or leave

So the ball is in your court . I am not sure where this other man is now since they are not working together but since she refuses to accept the results of any testing I have no way to see how you can believe she is not in contact with him some way and would not meet him again if the opportunity presented itself

So it is not complicated at this point. You either accept the fact that she had the PA without knowing any of the truth and on top of her you devote years of therapy and expense for the privilege of living with her or you divorce her .

It does not matter what I would do or any one else , but you are going to be in limbo land for a long long time . That is your decision . Not sure what meaningful advice you can get that will change the obvious. You have done all possible to get her to tell you the truth and she refuses. If you can reconcile with that go for it . No one has a crystal ball. The odds say you are in for more trouble though .

Best of luck

did you consider a polygraph, Doublezero ?

His WW failed several polys! Changes IC's when the going gets tough to avoid looking at the truth within herself...

MC is worthless at this point. Put that on hold. Work on yourself and your WW MUST work on herself in IC. You cannot have a healthy marriage with 2 unhealthy people.

DoubleZ - You deserve an honest M and an authentic life. You have a pathological liar for a wife who doesn't seem to want to change. Time to take care of YOU.

[This message edited by Lucky2HaveMe at 8:25 AM, September 4th (Friday)]

I didn't know what a narcissist was when I stupidly married at 18...It was therapists that educated me...Then the term sociopath was used...I believe mine is both. EVERYONE loved and probably still loves him...except for those in this house. The more people loved him, the lower my self-esteem went. I thought I was so fat, ugly, and stupid and he just didn't want me, but then it was including the children as well...I barely weigh 100lbs, have a college degree I earned soon after my 8th child was born, and probably am ugly...No matter what I did, he was always seen as the most magnificent husband, father, boss....I was so tired of hearing You are so lucky to be married to...I didn't feel lucky. He has built a world of people around him, that would never believe the things he has done. He has his slut, who I believe has had a child with him...Born while he was still in the home. He has done everything possible to hide this relationship, although there are certainly MANY more. I hired a PI, when he was still in home and he said he had never seen such a level of paranoia in an affair. He said that he believed each of them had something on the other and that kept the paranoia high. He said ordinarily, the cheating husband would be very paranoid at the beginning of the affair, but couldn't maintain that, would make mistakes, then no longer cared and became reckless and arrogant. He said generally the woman might get mad at the man or mad at one of her girl friends and either would simply go to the wife and spill the beans....He said this affair had gone on so long, with such a high degree of paranoia, that most likely the two were blackmailing the other. This monster man, brought the woman into our home...Into our basement. One of the children found out, by seeing tire tracks each morning in driveway. No matter what we did, he would bring the slut in...Once he was out under DVO, it didn't stop and to this day, they both stalk us and break in. The woman is a meth addict and recently re-arrested for meth, tampering with evidence, and convicted felon with a weapon. I knew...Just knew she was a criminal. I couldn't imagine any woman, no matter how trashy, going into another woman's home, while she and children were there. She was also waltzing in, when no one was home. We left every kind of surveillance...We weren't as effective as we could have been, because by the time we knew what was going on, the monster I married and the slut...Both had us under surveillance and certainly were using GPS on us. This is why I think in most instances...At least when dealing with NPD or worse...Please run! You probably only know a fraction of what they have done. When you unveil them, they become extremely angry and vindictive and they are like elephants...They never forget! Everything about our lives was destroyed...Except for my children and my love for each other. We almost lost everything, did without just about everything, except for each other....And over 6 years since this man was out...He is still out there...His meth head is still out there.....The very day she was released from jail, about 6 weeks ago...She was immediately in a neighbor's driveway...watching....Tells me he is still in control of her, probably bailed her out, and in return she had a new assignment. So I beg you....NPD and sociopaths do not bond, do not love...They thrive on positive attention, they thrive on being the center of positive attention, they thrive on your adoration...They thrive on your energy and they will suck you dry. When you eventually catch on and confront...They become relentless in their punishment. I also read that with a sociopath/psychopath, that when you start to uncover their secrets, they become more dangerous. You may only find out their less serious secrets, but they are desperately trying to cover up the more severe ones...That is when you become in a high level of danger. My children and I will not ever feel safe again..Not anywhere. He took that away from us. These people are very adept at turning people against you as well....No one will believe the things they have done, because they have charmed everyone in their path...They can become anyone they want to...They change personalities to suit their needs...To get people to worship them. Good luck to each of you dealing with this.

Sunflower- That sounds like a complete nightmare. I am so sorry you went and continue to go through it. I keep hearing/reading stories of people experiencing similar situations but with differing degrees of severity. It makes me wonder if I am lucky to be where I am or if I should be concerned about what lies ahead for me and my family.

Hey DoubleZero!

Thank you for your kind words. Honestly...For most of you experiencing NPD...Just my opinion, but maybe you don't know, but a small amount of the deception. I hope you know all and can move ahead, but please don't get caught in the web again. These people can deceive as well as they can breath air...They can act sincere and can act loving...We only saw that when he wanted something. About the time this man probably found out his skank had conceived...Almost instantly we had a new man. He cleaned, he bathed...A persistent form of torture for us was his horrible lack of hygiene...(He's a professional and if off from work could go a week and not bathe.)..He talked to us, he pretended to be interested in our lives. By then we had many therapists...Because of him and because two children are disabled...They kept asking "Is he still cleaning? Is he still talking?" It lasted until I sat down at my computer and found out he had hacked into my e-mail...(I've never been with another man, and sadly am so damaged by him, I never could be again.) I know he was searching to see what I knew about him. I then found he was searching for certain poor queens to chat with. I was sick. I wish I had been more technically savvy back then, but that was all it took, for me to know he was changing his behavior, so I would look the other way. I never bought it. It would have taken years for me to trust this man had really changed. Even the children didn't believe it was for real. This was a 4 decades long marriage. A few months of bathing and washing floors didn't cut it....He then withdrew his "Mr Nice Guy" act and for the next 3 years, he didn't say a word to even the children. He glared at them as though his eyes could burn right through them. I can only make suggestions, honestly from my experience, and others I have known or read about with NPD...There is no relationship, they can fool you, deceive others, and the real person never changes...All I can say is run! I hope for the best for each of you, no matter what your choice. Our fear, every day of our lives is that for a small amount of money, my ex will get his low life meth addicted skank to hurt us...He has to have someone he can manipulate and control, and this one surely needs money. One day, I fear she will need a "hit" so badly, she will do anything he wants. This man is extremely smart and he won't be the one to get his hands dirty. This is why I feel everyone should realize, it may not just be betrayal and broken hearts...You WS may bring you danger and it just may not go away, because NPD's do not seem to go away.