SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Just want to clarify, if I'm able, my post. I did realize when I wrote it that it sounded problematic. I would never say that people who are drinking are fully able to give consent, or that they deserve it if they are physically/sexually assaulted.

What I was trying to say, and I stand by it, is that you shouldn't be relying on anyone to interpret what happened, and whether or not there was "intent". Not even her. In the end, you have to go with your gut.

Grace and Flowers

I'm happy that you've clarified this. Your original post about it was very problematic. However, I do not necessarily disagree with everything you say. There are a lot of things we see eye to eye only that this does not contradict what stretch said. In fact, I'm in agreement with both of you. While I agree with everything he said (except for this specific issue) there are also a lot of points that I'm in agreement with you.

Grace, I'm not relying on the event itself when I say that I think she's not lying, that there was no intent in the sex (other things yes) and that I trust her. A few pages back we have largely discussed it there. It was a large puzzle of the small pieces, the bits, of information I had, what happened afterwards, the things we and she has done. So, when I say I trust her and believe her it was not based on this but on many other aspects, elements and facts.

By the way, I also do not necessarily disconnect the drinking from the sex only not in the way you did or by claiming somehow that drunken people deserve to be sexually assaulted. I think it is a reckless and dangerous behavior and that one must avoid it because especially in some specific events it can happen. It's not only in GNO but other events like bachelor parties and many more as well. I just don't come to the conclusion that always when it happens it is an assault. It's reckless and heedless behavior on both parties; not a sexual assault. This in itself can be a deal breaker and have grave consequences. However, the drinking itself, especially after what she's done to heal and fix herself, would not be a deal breaker for me. Yet, if there was intent in the sex, not in the drinking, as stretch mentioned I couldn't do this.

What stretch said was fitting into this puzzle as last piece! Notperfect5 explained it beautifully. We came to this conclusion from different places but the result is one and the same. When you actually can prove that something is the same but in different ways and come to the same conclusion it makes it only stronger. Therefore this one specific disagreement with him is really not important. Basically, for my puzzle it was the missing part and he was 100% right. You called it gut. I agree this is partly my gut telling me that. But it is more than gut. There are many more concrete pieces of puzzle, evidences and facts than just gut that makes me believe this and to agree with stretch. Also a lot of other things he said. As you say I will never have the truth about the facts of the event, but today I have every reason to believe it was not intended. I have also explained it in many posts in this thread. One of the strongest arguments is that she could not consent to sex although I don't think it was an assault (see the discussion on drunken sex a few pages back)

[This message edited by MrSpock at 7:11 AM, January 29th (Friday)]

A few questions about Mrs. Spock. Is she a beautiful woman physically? How many years have you known her? When you dated how did you feel about her as to her putting herself first or you first in the relationship? Has that changed in the marriage and how? Did you put her on a pedestal early in the relationship before you were married? (nearly all men will pedestal the wife after marriage). Is she flirty? What FOO issues, if any are you aware of? Have you and her prior to this event had discussions on infidelity and of it being a deal breaker? How attractively (to the opposite sex) does she dress when going out without you in general and in particular instances that might have given you some thoughts? Does she always wear high heels? How often to the beauty shop? Any cosmetic surgery? Any Botox treatments? Is she a generous and patient mother? What is her sense of humor like......dry, sarcastic etc. Does she (did she before 3 years ago?)find you very funny and amusing to her? Did she tell off color jokes (sex jokes) before the incident and has changed since? Does she read women's Romance Novels.....before and since the incident? And finally, what has she told you she LIKES best about you....before marriage, in marriage before incident and then after incident? Sorry for the length and feel free to respond in small pieces over several days as you should list these things I ask and look at them and think about them for some time before answering. I will give my thoughts on Forgiveness down the pike a piece as the concept is so important and so misunderstood. For now, suffice to say accept and get past it will definitely do....if and ONLY if you can FEEL things have been sufficiently re-balanced in the marriage at the point in time that a decision is to be made. Involved in that and FAR MORE IMPORTANT than any concept of FORGIVENESS is justice / fitting consequence for what happened. Try and remember who brought the trouble into the marriage. Forgiveness ......more specifically the seeking of it.......and don't think the WS is not seeking it the vast majority of the time REEKS with "just get over it" Hang in Stretch

Forgot a couple questions about Mrs. Spock. Her alcohol use history all through the time you have known her? Any drug issues of any type since you have known her? stretch

Strech, some of the questions I already answered in my responses. Some other I need time to recall and write them down. I'll do this. I still find them irrelevant for the rape theory. They are important questions but not to what you are pointing. This theory is the only thing I'll disagree with you. Due to the circumstances we will never be able to know all the truth about what happen no matter what the answers are. Therefore I believe we must bring those theories to rest. For me if she would claim in those circumstances it was an assualt I would interperet it as not taking responsibility over her actions. If it was a rape than she's a victim and has no need to work on herself. It also means that personally what I'm going through is not a big deal as to my pain. I think this discussion is not based on fact but more ideolgicaly fueled. Yet, give me time and I will answer the question nevertheless as I believe they are good for other reasons. Besides this I agree with you on everything

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:51 AM, January 29th (Friday)]

I am only trying to get a sense of her especially on HOW she sees herself. And I agree with you that we cannot go back in time and answer exactly what happened that day. I did 2 full years of a Psychiatric Residency before I switched to Internal Medicine and my weakness is I always try and see inside the person even as if was not necessary for many of the regular medical issues I treated .......it led to me taking 45 mins. to an hour or more on many patient visits which often extended my work day to 12 to 14 hours and while all the time I spent with my patients helped me motivate them a great deal more than was to be expected, it unfortunately, played havoc with my own home life. I would like to know what she is like and what motivates her. When I first scanned your thread what struck me was not you but the lengths your wife was going to for three years without falter. So I thought this must be a LTA with great deception etc. thus the effort by her to save the marriage and deep regret for her treachery.Then I saw the affair, while terrible standing all by itself, when compared to the things we see here was the least egregious of all possible infidelities. Then I saw BECAUSE of that fact, you ageeded to stay. You did not say this but it is what I saw and along with kids, completely understandable. After reading more I realized you would NOT have stayed for any other type affair at all.....I greatly doubt you would have even given any THOUGHT to staying if she had a ONS that she pre planned, but then felt guilty and confessed, another less egregious affair compared to the others we see here routinely, but to you, even with children a near certan deal breaker. From there I could see your internal conflict and how you were stuck. I saw your wife doing all that good work for 3 years, yet realized she could not give you what you needed to live happy with her again and I suggested some paths to get you paid back emotionally to right things for your self so you could live your life again. I would like to get those answers so I can get an image of her and then I can give you some thoughts on some things that may further help you. Many of the posters here have great past expeience to lend you and others but always seem surprised that some strong conclusions can reached with a high probability of being correct about behavior without hard provable facts. It surprises me a little as many of them must have had experience with IC and surely benefited by it. I can't be as precise obviously with only indirect communication here.....but many, many people repeat patterns in their behavior that can clearly be seen even with the limited communication available in this venue. I will stay in touch, hang in, stretch

Spock,

Makes sense. Glad to know you're giving the gut it's due :)

Edited for brevity and clarity

[This message edited by Grace and Flowers at 11:22 PM, January 29th (Friday)]

Stretch, thank you man, for yet another very powerful and strong post! If I was a religious person, I would have to say, you were sent by God to help. So, we can agree that you were most probably sent by Karma to help me.

I am only trying to get a sense of her especially on HOW she sees herself. And I agree with you that we cannot go back in time and answer exactly what happened that day.

I'm happy that we agree on this. I just want to add a few things. I do find your questions important. At least most of them and I'll answer them. I think that none of the questions are relevant and should be discussed in the context of the rape theory. I'm happy that we agree on both of those aspects. I think we should leave this aspect where it belongs, in the past and concentrate on the present with its problems! This is where I believe the questions are important and it's there where they should be discussed. The help you offer me is invaluable. It is more unbelievable that there are people like you who offer this help free of charge to a stranger on the internet. I'm really so grateful and feel bad that I can't repay this somehow. It's very generous on your part.

To make it clear what I mean above, I want to answer the first question you asked. I will do this now not only because there is nothing to reflect on it but because this question shows why I think it is irrelevant for the rape theory. In fact, I doubt it is even relevant to understand the affair, any kind of affair, but maybe I'm wrong. I will explain my reasoning, but feel free to correct me if you think that my logic's failing. Stretch, you asked about my wife's physical beauty. I can't understand how and why is it so important to understand the affair or the whole rape theory. In my opinion it is not. However, my wife is a very beautiful woman. She even looks and reminds a bit of a famous British actress. However, I find it to be completely irrelevant (also never mentioned this before you asked). Why? Because the way I look at the question makes me be believe that there are at least three assumptions to that question.

Those assumptions as I see them can be described as following: a) A beautiful woman is always at danger to have an affair (a type of entitlement); b) an ugly woman is always at risk to have an affair (a sense of validation); c) A beautiful woman is always at risk to be sexually assaulted (if she has none of these, because all men are some kind of perverts that can't control their urges and will always attack a woman and rape her). The first two ones are quite women hating assumptions. The last one is quite a man hating assumption. Both of them are not reality or facts but are rooted in certain worldviews about both men and women. This is why I said all this discussion about drunken sex in the context of rape is more ideologically fuelled and not factually based. I don't see my wife's beauty as somehow relevant to this discussion. Again, maybe I'm wrong. Feel free to correct me.

As to your background so once again it's invaluable and I admire your generosity to offer me such help free of charge. It's very generous. I just want to relate here to something that also other posters mentioned, but first of all some background about myself. In my military carrier I found it always extremely important to understand human behavior and psychology. I've put a lot of effort to study it on my own. I didn't study psychology as a profession but did it on my own (autodidact). So, I do not pretend to be a licensed psychologist but I do have a lot of knowledge about it. Why do I say it?! Because from my experience I do know that even if someone fills only a questionnaire and writes his problem down, it is indeed possible for someone that is trained to make a great evaluation and assessment based on it. And, yes, also give solutions. Feel free to do this with me. And by the way, I think everyone here, all the posters too, are doing exactly the same! They are welcome too.

I did 2 full years of a Psychiatric Residency before I switched to Internal Medicine and my weakness is I always try and see inside the person even as if was not necessary for many of the regular medical issues I treated

Once again, some more background. I'm a master in martial arts. I'm mentioning this because eastern martial arts are rooted in a certain psychology and philosophy. How is it related to your statement above? Well, your approach that you've described here, reminds me a lot on the approach of the traditional Chinese medicine. You see everything as a whole. Mind and matter (physicality) are not separated. It's one unity. I believe in this very much. Your approach is not the common and typical western approach but again I really admire it as I find your and the Chinese approach to be better. So, once again, your approach, experience and knowledge are invaluable for me.

I would like to know what she is like and what motivates her.

We will definitely do this and in my next post I have a specific question for you about her that I find is very important for my, for our, healing. It is something you didn’t ask but is very important for me.

Then I saw the affair, while terrible standing all by itself, when compared to the things we see here was the least egregious of all possible infidelities.

I agree with you. We see it eye to eye.

Then I saw BECAUSE of that fact, you ageeded to stay. You did not say this but it is what I saw and along with kids, completely understandable. After reading more I realized you would NOT have stayed for any other type affair at all.....

You are 100% right

I greatly doubt you would have even given any THOUGHT to staying if she had a ONS that she pre planned, but then felt guilty and confessed, another less egregious affair compared to the others we see here routinely, but to you, even with children a near certain deal breaker.

Again, 100% correct.

From there I could see your internal conflict and how you were stuck.

I think you've nailed the issue here and are 100% spot on with your assessment and with your evaluation. As you've written in your first response it has to do with my type of temperament, personality and masculinity. If there was intent on her part to fuck another man, it would be over in an instant. Kids, finances, nothing would help. In that case, I'd better be homeless than to stay with a wife that intended to screw another man. However, what you did is to put my thoughts straight and give me the solution of how to unravel the knot.

I saw your wife doing all that good work for 3 years, yet realized she could not give you what you needed to live happy with her again and I suggested some paths to get you paid back emotionally to right things for yourself so you could live your life again.

Again, your help was invaluable and most probably saved my marriage. At least, I'm motivated, determined and focused on this target now. You asked what my wife likes about me. There are a lot of things and I will answer them later. Yet, in this context it's that I'm unapologetically masculine and go for what I want without giving a shit about what other people think about me. It is meant in a positive way because I will never harm anyone in achieving those goals. Another thing she likes about me in this context and I will elaborate it later is me being this kind of "paradox" (not only in this specific area)

I would like to get those answers so I can get an image of her and then I can give you some thoughts on some things that may further help you.

I will definitely do this. As I said I even have questions that you didn’t ask and think you can help me a lot.

Many of the posters here have great past experience to lend you and others but always seem surprised that some strong conclusions can reached with a high probability of being correct about behavior without hard provable facts. It surprises me a little as many of them must have had experience with IC and surely benefited by it. I can't be as precise obviously with only indirect communication here.....but many, many people repeat patterns in their behavior that can clearly be seen even with the limited communication available in this venue. I will stay in touch, hang in, stretch

I answered this above in the context of my personal experience with psychology. I'm in 100% agreement with you on this. You can feel free to do this on my thread

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:13 AM, January 30th (Saturday)]

Since the guy was a friend of one of her friends, wife's friend(use that term loosly) knows this guys name.

Surely she has no continued to be friends with these toxic women who I would think knew exactly where this was headed and did not try to protect her or check her and say what the hell are you doing flirting, etc with this guy! You are married!

Makes me wonder if they themselves have been having hookups with others and were approving of your wife having a little drunken side action.

Curious....Did she have her wedding ring on when you went to get her? Guy knew she was married?

As I always said GNO/BNO have no place within the confines of a marriage.

To obtain forgiveness, Christ said we must forgive others. Letting go is forgiving. Forgiving does not mean you forget....you can forgive a transgression and never allow that person to stick a knife into you again. Continuing to want that person to suffer for the act they committed is not forgiving.

DivinelyFavored

Surely she has no continued to be friends with these toxic women who I would think knew exactly where this was headed and did not try to protect her or check her and say what the hell are you doing flirting, etc with this guy! You are married!

Makes me wonder if they themselves have been having hookups with others and were approving of your wife having a little drunken side action.

I will never know what happened exactly at that night and therefore once again prefer to leave it where it belongs in the past. Yet, basically I must agree with you that it sounds plausible what you say. However, I don't think they "tricked" or "forced" her into sex. It was more subtle. They knew for sure that if they would directly suggest something like that to her, she would immediately decline it and cut all contact with them. As you say, knowing where they were heading, they brought her and most probably hoped she will go along, will like the experience and join them on a regular basis. I saw this happen a lot to other people.

I don't think they "forced" her but just let things happen and hoped that she would like it and if not that it would not be a great deal. As you say those are toxic women (and men) who can't do anything constructive with their life, have zero moral, all that let's get wasted culture of Millions of useless idiots that you can find everywhere – men and women. As I said I don't think it was an assault but that kind of thoughtless and irresponsible behavior. They didn't try to protect her, stop her and tell her she's married, because those idiots had zero moral and brain to understand it and were doing the same. Sorry for the rant!

Curious....Did she have her wedding ring on when you went to get her? Guy knew she was married?

She had her wedding ring on. Another source for tremendous pain and mind movies! The ring is a symbol for our love, my love, for my wife. Now, that ring is even physically tarnished by this scum of earth. Yet, it's not only the ring. There are memories. That everything is tarnished too. I think that I should maybe buy her a new ring. I'm really thinking that once we properly reconcile I should do what notperfect5 suggested. We symbolically divorce and remarry. Then the new ring is bought in a completely different and healthy context. It's like being reborn again. Something that maybe could also help me to overcome the feeling of her dirtying herself during that ONS! Anyway, as to the POS fucking her while she had her wedding ring on, so I suppose this cretin was too drunk to notice it and probably those toxic persons have anyway zero of morality to bother themselves about such things!

As I always said GNO/BNO have no place within the confines of a marriage.

I agree with you. That alongside with keeping strict boundaries with the opposite sex! Once married, there can't be any kind of "friendships" with the opposite sex.

To obtain forgiveness, Christ said we must forgive others. Letting go is forgiving. Forgiving does not mean you forget....you can forgive a transgression and never allow that person to stick a knife into you again. Continuing to want that person to suffer for the act they committed is not forgiving

Look, I respect the fact that you are a religious person and therefore seek forgiveness. I'm not religious so personally I don't see it that way. For me, I see it in terms of seeking my happiness. In a way, forgiveness as you describe it may be even an obstacle for this. What I need to do is to let go. And there is a lot that I need to let go. Negative emotions, mind movies and many more! I firmly believe that I can completely fall back in love with her even if I don't forgive but let go. I'm talking about letting go in regard to myself and of course to her as well. However, you say that forgiveness for you is letting go, so it's not so important the difference between us.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 10:46 AM, January 30th (Saturday)]

Spock, I am making a short post now before I catch up.....only with regards to your wife's physical appearance......BECAUSE it puts me in better touch with how she sees herself, especially how she saw herself growing up. But it is of value ONLY when you illuminate some of the other things I am asking. Your wife sensed you were not reconnecting (if only under the surface of her everyday thoughts) but pushed it down and kept trying for three years. I want to understand why that is. stretch

Stretch,

Do you have any personal experience with infidelity, and if so, in what capacity? You've mentioned dealing with it in your professional life. Your response may help others reading this thread to understand the reasoning behind your thoughts.

Strech

Here are my answer to most of your questions. Others although important it will take me time to recall and answer them. I don't know if it will help but I still posted them. I'm not sure one can make such a psychiatric or pychological profile of a person in that way, but I'm curious and therefore answered this. I also believe there are those assumptions in the questions despite your answer to me above. We will see if it makes sense. If yes it can be from a great help

1.Is she a beautiful woman physically? I answered this above. She is a VERY beautiful woman

2.How many years have you known her? 22 (married almost 20)

3.Is she flirty? We occasionally still flirted one with another even after being married for a long time. As I wrote in my opening post she still wrote me notes and made all those small things in the last three years. With others she's not flirty. However, she is very sociable and socializes very easily with people (without any sexual innuendo) – men or women. I was never jealous of this and it was of course o.k. She also never gave me any reason to suspect anything.

4.Have you and her prior to this event had discussions on infidelity and of it being a deal breaker? I made it very clear that infidelity is a deal breaker for me that would lead to the termination of the marriage. I told her that my tolerance level for cheating and promiscuity is very low. There are no games here. I made it also clear that for me flirting with the opposite sex is a breach of boundaries in the marriage.

5.How attractively (to the opposite sex) does she dress when going out without you in general and in particular instances that might have given you some thoughts? My wife never dresses in a vulgar or provocative style. She does dress herself in a way that emphasizes her femininity and natural beauty but you know more in the old fashioned (not slutty) style. It doesn't matter if she's with me or goes alone.

6.Does she always wear high heels? Almost never!It's not her style.

7.How often to the beauty shop? Let's say once in 6 to 8 weeks on average and she also uses a private beautician (an in home beauty service). My wife takes really care of herself in that sense. It has never changed after the marriage (also because she knows I value that)

8.Any cosmetic surgery? No

9.Any Botox treatments? No

10.Is she a generous and patient mother? Yes

11.Did she tell off color jokes (sex jokes) before the incident and has changed since? No.

12.Does she read women's Romance Novels.....before and since the incident? No, she doesn't like them. She read only one in her entire life and told me she didn't really like it.

13.What is her sense of humor like......dry, sarcastic etc. I would say she has a witty sense of humor.

14.Her alcohol use history all through the time you have known her? Very, very, little alcohol! Only when we went on dates, social event, family gatherings and so on! Yet, always very little.

15.Any drug issues of any type since you have known her? She never used drugs

16.Did you put her on a pedestal early in the relationship before you were married? (Nearly all men will pedestal the wife after marriage). I treated her VERY, VERY, well before and after the marriage. I never took her for granted. However, I don't put women (and anyone) on a pedestal. I don't believe it belongs in an equal relationship and it only creates a sense of entitlement and arrogance in that person. I find it very often to be language laundering for being a doormat. As I said I treated her VERY, VERY, well, but I would never take any whim or caprice thrown at me. I'm not desperate and never will be. Maybe, it's a question of definition, but I think me treating her so well with dignity, love and respect is not putting her on a pedestal; maybe some others will claim otherwise.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:37 AM, January 31st (Sunday)]

Grace.....Yes personally, I was the Betrayed. And Professionally for 35 plus years. I will give some details later.

Spock......You mentioned after the incident 3 years ago.....you said she went 360, also she was never much of a drinker. When I hear 360 I think of a WW CORRECTING poor behavior, loose boundaries WAS that a specific reference to EXCLUDING the toxic friends, the GNO crowd, but nothing else needed changing? There is an elephant in the room.....with the drinking being at most social prior, then at this incident she drinks to fall down drunk? Let's talk about that in a a week or so (I want to get more things understood before I put this together....I would like for you to roll that around in your head for some time and tell me how you think that could have happened ...social drinking to a binge? episode...and more importantly Mrs. Spock.....how does she think that she all of a sudden wanted to let go and drink so heavily. Be very careful here, you two are very fragile right now so start the discussion, make me the bad guy inquiring, as I am. But just barely start the discussion then stop so you both but her especially can THINK about it.....from her the why the heavy drininkg that particular night. You can take a few days to cover this and one memory nudge is to ask what she was drinking, same drink, different ones and estimate the number of hours and the quantity. When I can get a picture of things I think I can suggest some things for you to feel comfortable and satified you are not violating your standards. One thing I want to tell you now is that you DO NOT NEED to believe things I say down the road are TRUE........just believe I THINK they are TRUE.....then as time goes by and things play out it will become clearer to you......I won't be around at that point because I expect you two will need another couple of years to both feel as comfortable with each other as you once were.....always remember you are not forgiving her but she, with your help will balance things again and satisfy you there is a justice restored. later stretch

Spock......You mentioned after the incident 3 years ago.....you said she went 360, also she was never much of a drinker. When I hear 360 I think of a WW CORRECTING poor behavior, loose boundaries WAS that a specific reference to EXCLUDING the toxic friends, the GNO crowd, but nothing else needed changing? There is an elephant in the room.....with the drinking being at most social prior, then at this incident she drinks to fall down drunk?

Stretch, with the 360 I was not referring to the drinking but other things. I answered your specific questions and gave a very concrete answer to them. Of course, there is more to it. This is why I believe and told you that you can't build here a psychiatric and psychological profile. It requires more than an online forum. Of course, she has worked on it. In my first post I only summarized it. I also begin only now to learn everything and the extent of the work she's done (I was mentioning this too). It is one thing to understand my dealbreakers as we did before and trying to build a psychiatric profile of a person in that way. Of course, it can't be discussed with the few question that you asked (and actually without interviewing her!!!). It is much more complex. Therefore, I was skeptical that it will work in that way. I'm not sure this can be discussed in such kind of an internet platform. Yet, we will continue to discuss what's possible. It is also sure that after I've worked on myself in IC this everything and many more must and will be discussed in MC. It's obvious. Therefore as a direction I found your questions good. Not in terms if finding the truths and facts of that evening. I still insist it is impossible. I'll need to trust a lot my gut!

Let's talk about that in a a week or so (I want to get more things understood before I put this together....I would like for you to roll that around in your head for some time and tell me how you think that could have happened ...social drinking to a binge?

I could explain it in many ways and will write them later down. It's not something that I couldn’t imagine. It has to do with what I've written above.

You can take a few days to cover this and one memory nudge is to ask what she was drinking, same drink, different ones and estimate the nmber of hours and the quantity. When I can get a picture of things I think I can suggest some things for you to feel comfortable and satified you are not violating your standards. One thing I want to tell you now is that you DO NOT NEED to believe things I say down theroad are TRUE........just believe I THINK they are TRUE.....then as time goes by and things play out it will become clearer to you......I won't be around at that point because I expect you two will need another couple of years to both feel as comfortable with each other as you once were.....always remember you are not forgiving her but she, with your help will balance things again and satisfy you there is a justice restored.

Due to the circumstances I will not be able to get all of the information and I don't think that I can trust everything in that sense. Without this information I will not be able to get to the conclusion or the type of conclusion you're pointing at. It has nothing to do with her lying. It is her state at that evening (and early morning) plus the time passed from that event. I can't even rely on her answers as Grace and Flowers mentioned. In this one I agree with other posters. There is a lot of need to trust my gut (at least to some aspects of the evening). As I said I'll need at the end to combine your approach with that of the others. We discuss this later too. By the way, you helped me a lot with putting my thoughts straight with all of the other questions like my dealbreakers, exceptions for the rule, how to approach it and what to do. And for that I'm grateful. Thanks.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:34 AM, January 31st (Sunday)]

Stretch

Just wanted to add this! In fact, I think my main question was answered in this thread. By you, by some of the other posters and by her too (as a result of this discussion)! Now, that my thoughts on the deal breakers, the questions I had to her, my specific needs the path from her are answered, I do have the incentive, the motivation and the determination to work on the marriage. There is a huge work that awaits us in the future. Yet, there is a big difference. Now, I'm determined to win that fight with her together. The support here was amazing and I'm sure I'll continue to reach out from time to time in the future too. We will continue to discuss everything later.

Um...this is just anecdotal, but Shirley Glass said in her book that, in her clinical experience, when both partners said they wanted to R, only 20% did not R (which I take to mean 80% did R). That's been our personal experience and my experience reading about others on SI, too - wanting to R and doing the work leads to successful R.

IOW, with both of you wanting to R, and both of you willing to do the work, the odds seem to be very much in your favor.

I hope that that helps you when you hit the inevitable bumps - and may they be small ones when you do hit 'em!

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:56 PM, January 31st (Sunday)]

Just cheering you on from the sidelines, Mr. Spock.

Like the Aikido connection too!

I think you are heading in the right direction now, and I think you two will make it because you sensed, even in a bad place, you shouldn't give up on her. Doesn't hurt she kept trying and it doesn't hurt she looks like Elizabeth Hurley either. stretch

I read through your thread. I can tell you I felt the same as you do 10 years post Dday. My FWW had a at least a year long affair with a coworker. We did reconcile BUT I still never reconciled myself. I was like you angry, hurt and still in disbelief. My FWW did everything I asked and tried to make me feel better. She did help me heal but I could not help myself heal. I went to IC and just spilled it out there. It took a few months but IC helped me and now I can move on. 10 years dude! Don't wait got to IC NOW!

Sisoon

Wanting to R and doing the work leads to successful R.

Well, I hope it is. Though, I may now agree we are not properly reconciled, I may at the moment wonder what it truly is. I don't know but I would think about it in terms that there is nothing more there. You know, when "all of these old accounts are closed" and "the table is clean". Is it possible? But isn't this forgetting? I don't think it is possible to forget it. Or is it my own wrong perception of it. Would those images of this fateful night follow me to my grave? Or do I just perceive it in an incorrect way? I hope I do.

However, I hope it is. I'll try it. So, we will see it. Right now, I'm trying to go forward with baby steps. I'll try in the next time just to work on having some compassion with her and having again the feelings of gratitude for what she's done in the last three years. You know, to be able to do what stretch described as liking her again. Being able to look and while having the feelings of gratitude and compassion to smile at her again.

I hope that that helps you when you hit the inevitable bumps - and may they be small ones when you do hit 'em!

I have the bumps; they haven’t gone anywhere, yet. The emotional flashbacks can be overwhelming at times. It's like emotionally you re-experience and relive everything from that night and all of those years for real. It can be at times even more overwhelming than the mere thinking itself. I know that I'm just starting my own healing. So, I indeed know that patience and endurance are keywords here. I do not try to hide it anymore, so I can see how sensitive and aware she is of my mood swings and feelings. When it happens she puts everything aside and tries to soothe me. She also always asks what she can else do. So, I know patience is very important here.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:05 AM, February 2nd (Tuesday)]