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MrsJohnAdams

I do talk to her like this, but its like everything else..She's not listening and constantly want me to instruct her about everything. How is that her doing the work even when I tell her how to? Like before, during and after the affair she refuses to see and hear me. She still lives in this fantasy land and refuses to see reality and what she truly needs to be doing. If she has to think about it its just to difficult.. Which is why she had the affair and why she will A: have another one down the road or B: Continue to damage our kids and myself due to her inability to want to open her eyes and actually listen.

She fears trying to do anything in fear it wont work in her favor.. So she doesn't do anything and hopes it will just work itself out on its own. Shes really all talk no action..well at least when it come to me and our kids..with he AP she gave 100% effort..

She gave 100% of that effort because it benefited her. It felt great!

Did you see my post on the previous page?. She doesn't see life through your eyes. She sees life as benefiting her and how people can benefit her.

She was miserable...let me use someone else's husband to make me happy at ALL costs. It didn't matter that she hurt you or another woman. She didn't and doesn't care.

That is why you were upset to know his wife was pregnant and your wife cheated.

You have a clear sense of morality.

She is a user. Look at ashameddads post. He is sooo grateful for the gift of R. I can see it. I can see it in my own husband. The difference in "attitude". She is blaming the AP.... he didn't force her. The affair benefited her.

She's scared and she has no clue how to fix this. In her way she's trying. You may have to completely spell it out for her .. this is what I need and how you need to do it.

She knows she has really messed up... and she knows she might lose everything..

Can you concentrate on the things she is doing right instead of dwelling on the things she is doing wrong? Can you tell her when she does something right and encourage her?

Sometimes betrayeds think waywards should have this all figured out.. guess what.. they don't.

Here is what I think you need to look for .. her willingness to do better.. her attempts to help you.. her kindness and patience when you get angry.

She may eventually be able to do exactly what you need.

Your goal is to love her more than you hate what she did.. and when that happens you will be amazed how much better you feel.

She's scared and she has no clue how to fix this. In her way she's trying. You may have to completely spell it out for her .. this is what I need and how you need to do it.

She knows she has really messed up... and she knows she might lose everything..

Can you concentrate on the things she is doing right instead of dwelling on the things she is doing wrong? Can you tell her when she does something right and encourage her?

Sometimes betrayeds think waywards should have this all figured out.. guess what.. they don't.

That I have never believed because if she had anything figured out we wouldn't be where we are.

Here is what I think you need to look for .. her willingness to do better.. her attempts to help you.. her kindness and patience when you get angry.

That is hard and I still try.

She may eventually be able to do exactly what you need.

She cant even when I tell her exactly how to. If she doesn't get the praise she has in her head then she stops. But that's typical of her and I even have pointed it out to her.

Your goal is to love her more than you hate what she did.. and when that happens you will be amazed how much better you feel.

I'm just not capable of that at this time. I keep feeling let down time after time. She asks how to help. I give her ideas in the hope she will put some time in and come up with her own ideas and not just what I've talked to her about but she continues to just want to read directions on the back of a box and follow it. Not look at it and go..Damn I can spice this up a bit and make it my own to give to him.

At what point will someone learn that their actions speak louder than their word. For years he words have been all lies and she gave no action..Now she wants to use words again basically repeating the very things that have failed her and our marriage.

[This message edited by Texashunter41 at 10:35 AM, July 27th (Thursday)]

this came in my box from over at another site so the words are not mine but I thought well worth sharing:

written by the former wayward, Rick

healing after an affair - emotional flooding & reminders

One of My Own Failures

Back in the mid-eighties I had a business fail. I guess that’s not unusual in the world of business, but it was new to me. I lost just about everything as I desperately tried to save the business. I spent our savings, our retirement, and plenty of borrowed money all in an attempt to hold out until the market turned. The only problem was, the market never turned so we ran smack dab into financial ruin. It was so bad, that as a family of five, we actually qualified for food stamps. You might be able to go lower than we did, but that’s about as low as I ever want to go. Thankfully, God was faithful and met our needs and took us in a new direction. As I’ve said before, he was able to take the worst thing that ever happened and make it the best.

Now you may be wondering why I’m sharing this story, or what this has to do with healing after an affair. After 30 plus years of helping couples and individuals professionally, I have discovered that crises affect us far more than we are usually aware. The impact of the crisis, whatever it may be, must be dealt with if we ever want to find hope.

The impact of this particular financial crisis continued to build, and in many ways helped me see our recovery process in a new light. I began to notice some interesting responses that helped me identify with what Steph was struggling with in recovering from my affair. Every time I encountered a reminder of my business, I experienced an emotional firestorm. Each time I drove by the location where I had worked I would emotionally flood. If I ran into someone I had previously worked with, I became overwhelmed with what felt like inconsolable emotions. There seemed to be reminders everywhere and it felt like I had to continually battle with myself at every turn.

Grieving to Acceptance

The trauma experienced by a couple upon the revelation of a betrayal is no small matter, and it creates a raw, emotional upheaval that has to be dealt with by both parties. Yes: both parties. To be sure, the initial stage of healing after an affair is about grieving. For the betrayed spouse the pain of the losses is overwhelming. There is the loss of self-confidence, the loss of the life they thought they had, the loss of their dreams, the loss of security, the loss of their belief in who their mate was, and the list goes on and on. Loss has to be grieved, and the stages of grief cannot be avoided. There will be anger, bargaining, and depression, but ultimately there comes a point of finding meaning and acceptance in what has occurred. The act of grieving does not, however, resolve the issue of reminders. After an appropriate amount of time, how does one move beyond the trauma and back into relationship?

Long after affairs have ceased and the betrayer has achieved a sense of humility, compassion, and in some cases ‘sobriety’, the battle of the thought life, and the impact of trauma begin to take center stage. In many ways, it is this struggle that will determine how quickly (if at all) a couple will be able to recover from betrayal. Each party has to make a conscious decision to either live in a past hurtful event, or to recommit to the marriage and focus on what can be. This is paramount in healing after an affair, and requires a reasonable timeframe. That decision is even more difficult than it sounds because it’s not just a matter of a choice, but rather it is a battle that has to be fought by the will, often for a period of months (usually about 18 to 24 months), and it takes a great deal of fortitude and tenacity to be willing to engage in this daily battle.

For each partner there can be multiple daily reminders of the catastrophic events. For the betrayed it can be a name, a song, a scent, the arrival of a cell phone or credit card bill, ads for a topless club, or a betrayal being portrayed in a movie. Even a sighting of a couple having a good time can be enough to send the betrayed spouse down memory lane, which can easily lead to a painful remembrance. For the unfaithful spouse, life is also filled with these reminders. Each time their mate says they want to talk, coming home at night wondering what type of mood their mate may be in, computers, recovery groups, counseling, and many other things can all serve as reminders.

It is at this point that the battle in the theater of the mind begins. The greatest distance known to mankind is the 18 inches between the head and the heart. In fact, it takes up to seven years for truth to move from our head to our heart, but for some strange reason it only takes a lie about three seconds to travel the same distance. Maybe that’s because we seem to fall at 32 feet per second (the speed of gravity), but it takes a great deal of energy and resolve to move uphill. At some point in the recovery process, each party has to come to the point where they choose to focus on something other than the betrayal and the reminders of that betrayal, and to decide that it is not the event that will define or control the rest of their life. There has to be a conscious choice to move ahead.

A Helpful Exercise

If you are the unfaithful spouse, you might find this exercise useful. Make an honest attempt this week to list out 40 separate reminders that your mate could have on any given day, which could possibly send them down the path to their personal house of horrors. The reason for this is not to shame or condemn. Rather, it is an honest attempt at conveying your true comprehension of their struggle each and every day. It also is a sincere attempt to convey how you are coming to a greater awareness of their struggle - this can be huge in healing after an affair.

If you are the betrayed spouse and you believe your mate is becoming a safe person and has moved into recovery, then choosing to no longer be a victim of painful reminders would be a good step toward health. Healing after an affair requires a willingness to fight the battle by attempting to focus on what is good and pure and noble rather than focusing on the failure, or the perpetual reminders of the failure.

the greatest distance is the 18 inches between the head and heart = so true IMO

that is often why healing is called a process that takes years

years, man, and yes a new little soul creates an amazing dynamic as to where you put your focus

letting go of the outcome and getting internally in touch with that shattered heart and healing mind/body/soul is H-A-R-D and when there is a communication problem it is even harder

it is OK to change your mind daily ... read here, post here, journal, vent and really sit with the pain and realize how it is the gateway to growth so that it doesn't hurt so much

baby steps as referenced above = this is a climb out and up so will take a lot of energy

breathe deeply and be patient and forgiving of yourself to not really know for awhile

limbo is part of the process and the 180 is your best friend

your healing is 100% on you so I would focus on not depending on her hearing you or frankly doing anything = your power to heal is yours all ways so don't give away your power to false hope. Great if she helps, but don't depend on her

all good

peace

TH...of course you are not capable of loving her more than you hate what she did....yet

This is going to take a long time..and you may not be up for the challenge..and that's ok

only you know what you need.

Can you give us an example of what you tell her you need and how she responds to it?

See...I read her posts and I read your posts...and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

SO please share with us how she is constantly failing in her attempt to give you what you need.

I guess I see it differently than many of the people on this thread.

I see that she's tired. That it's your fault for not accepting what she has done. That you refuse to see what she has done. That you keeping going over the past. That she's tired, because what she's doing isn't enough. That you're not giving reconciliation a chance. That you should just be happy with what she's doing and move forward. She doesn't seem to understand that it takes three to five years to heal, and even then, you will never forget. She wants to move forward, but reconciliation is a process, not a destination.

She had an eighteen months affair, and you're less than a year from dday. And she TT'd for awhile, so it's a lot less than a year out.

She seems to be complying with your wishes, but compliance is not remorse.

TH If I may ask what has she actually done ? I hear she talks a good game, but lacks follow through ?

It sounds like she wants some guarantee from you to R before she begins doing this earnestly. That is backwards. She needs to be the one to take that leap. She left the M and needs to earn her way back into it. Anything else will just set you up for more pain and disappointment. She has to do as it is the right thing to do despite the possible outcome.

Has she read books ? Is she in IC ? I really think she needs to understand why she has a malignant need for validation. Until that beast gets slayed . . .well it eventually brings you back to this point again.

Her desperate need for validation is really the character trait that is behind all of this. Her A, the child (I resist asking the question most BH would ask here) and that she gives up as soon as there is no one there to cheer her on. She can't validate herself. Further she proven she will trade her integrity to get validation. That isn't normal.

I get it. She expects you to hand it to her. You can't do that as you have a full plate already. You have to figure out what is best for you and your kids. That might mean a D.

At the end of the day if she is fixing herself to R with you it will fail. She needs to want to do that for herself and not for you or anyone else. Doing it for others will lead her right back to the real/imagined resentment. Also to justification. Then what ? Another A ?

She says that "she will never do that again," but if I had a dime every time I heard that from a WS I would be a rich man. How many times have we heard that only to find out later it was false R ? I am sure the WS saying that believe it too. Of course how many WS planned on being a WS when they got married? I'd bet none.

Right now, based on what you've shared, her motivations come from trying to save the M, but she fails to see that she has to save herself before she will be the partner you need. A desperate, needy spouse is not a good candidate for R. It might make it look OK for awhile, but old patterns come back. Old coping mechanisms get used in hard times. She has to fix that. That is the "heavy lifting" a WS must do to R.

Also your perception is that she is afraid of being a single with kids. She desperately wants to keep her life as she knew it. She has not made it clear to you that she chooses you and only you in her life. She likes her life with you, but her actual feelings about you are suspect. You should be suspicious about them. You can't take her words at face value anymore.

FWIW I would ask her to see an IC to address her "validation issues," and other things. I don't see another way this gets any better.

There are two sides to every coin too. If she did do IC do you think you would be able to thank her for trying ? Support her? Make it possible by staying home with the kids so she could do it (provided she sent proof that is where she actually was).

WS need encouragement too. It helps them see what is working and what isn't. She should expect praise for every little thing she says. Words are cheap. Actions can't be faked longer term.

FWIW I think IC for you would not be the worst thing either. It might help settle some of the confusion about what you really want.

I told my W a long time ago that D is always on the table. It is something that will always be a possibility. You don't have to do it now. What is the worse that giving it a little more time will cost you ?

IC, IC, IC.

I have deleted what ive wrote because I am currently in a angry state.

[This message edited by Texashunter41 at 12:50 PM, July 27th (Thursday)]

Sorry I got pissed and am overwhelmed today.. the 31st is coming up quickly and thats when she flew to AZ, paid for the flight and hotel and had sex with him for 6hrs while making sex videos for her and him to enjoy later..as well as him cuming in her..Think I need to stay away for awhile.. Again sorry.

Going over the details every day does not help either one of you. I've been there, done that. I understand why you want to, but in the end, that doesn't help. Instead focus on who she is now. Is she safe, does she give you honesty, is she your wife in every way (emotionally and sexually), does she have the boundaries you now require? If the answer to that is yes, give it some more time. If your answer is no, proceed with the D.

Oh, man, if you hadn't got her pregs after Dday, I'd be fine with you Divorcing her ass. I don't know though, now that you knew everything and still got her pregs, I almost think you need to gut through this shit as long as you feel comfortable with her ability to not to fuck strangers in vans anymore.

Listen to Plan C...you now have four children, there is no easy way to move on...you will take a huge hit financially and being a single parent with 3 kids and baby running around...yikes. She may not be giving you everything you want, but unfortunately even if you feel disgust, hatred and everything but love for her and I can totally understand that, the little ones always come first.

Maybe you need IC, maybe you need to take some time apart and even the score a little, I don't know, but I would think this through a little more. Sometimes walking away is harder than staying.

[This message edited by Randy1133 at 12:56 PM, July 27th (Thursday)]

I would add that if there was ever a case for evening the score, this is it...I don't condone revenage A though.

Have a nearly two year A with a guy she knew for a couple of hours reeks to me as if she was certainly out there looking for it. However, I digress. Look at her now, not back a year ago and make your decision based upon that conclusion.

TH...you have to stop this. You get yourself all wound up and start spewing venom. You have EVERY RIGHT to be angry. But you have to get some control over that anger.

Let me try to explain something to you that i see....

First...she is not a child. Stop treating her like one. Stop lecturing her and yelling at her and trying to make her do this your way...i gotta tell you...you are not doing things the ideal way either. This is understandable....neither of you have done this before...you are both trying to get through this but neither of you knows exactly what to do. I understand this is hard. I remember the early days of our reconciliation...it was horrible. So you are not alone here...we have ALL been through this.

and every betrayed souse feels just like you...how could you just throw us away? How could you do this to us? We get that.....

and she has no answer that you are going to understand or accept because if she tries to explain to you how she was feeling or what she was thinking...you are going to think she is making excuses...so it is best if she just shuts up.

The problem is...you also don't want her to SHUT DOWN. If she feels constantly threatened by you she will so just that...SHUT DOWN.

TH...I am going to try to help you with something that i think you are missing.

Her affair has nothing to do with you. It is not about you. It is not because of you. It is not about you. Betrayed spouses have a very hard time understanding this....they want to make it personal. It isn't.

Her affair is about her. It is not about the om...and it is not about you. It is about HER.

She validated what she was doing in her own mind...she moved her boundaries....she became self absorbed. It was about her.

If you can remove YOU from her affair...it might curb some of your anger. See you are putting you into an affair that had absolutely nothing to do with you.

There is absolutely nothing you did wrong...nothing you could have done to prevent it. This choice was one she made all by herself. and it had nothing to do with you.

You are trying to compete with the om in your own mind. She isn't do this to you...you are. Stop it. You do not need to compete with him. I realize that's hard not to do.

Did you read her newest post? Can you read what she writes as a non biased person? Can you detach enough to read what she is writing as though she is not YOUR wife?

[This message edited by MrsJohnAdams at 1:06 PM, July 27th (Thursday)]

I don't read what she writes. I want her to express herself without me interfering with it. To be able to ask questions and get some help understanding her why or even if someone could help he open her eyes. One thing I am controlling better is yelling. I have been working hard to talk with her in a calmer tone and be understanding. I do let her talk but she says I don't. Whats the sense of talking and then not being able to respond to anything she says. That is one thing she does in MC and even the therapist has said we cant talk and not be allowed to respond...This has always been a problem with her before the affair and blames this fact on why she felt the way she did..So basically.. Let me express my feelings but you may not respond or express yours. I was not allowed to respond and express mine or it was me "Turning it around on her". So she could say what ever she wants but I had to just take it and swallow my feelings about everything and anything. And to be honest..she is still very much like that. Even more so now

[This message edited by Texashunter41 at 1:28 PM, July 27th (Thursday)]

Texas, just saw your post about the 31st...do you think you're triggered by that date and subconsciously getting more angry, frustrated and anxious with WW because of that? I would be!

I believe so, trying to push it out but it was a bad day that's coming..the affair was bad enough but what she did on that day was next level sh.. and really showed what he meant to her.

Controlling the urge to cry has been difficult and gets worse leading up to the 31st..I feel its only going to get worse. I am trying but its not really helping. Ive never cry..but what she has done has broken me down in a way I never thought before..I have no control over anything about myself anymore.

[This message edited by Texashunter41 at 1:37 PM, July 27th (Thursday)]

She broke you in the worst way, it's ok to cry. Let it out. You might feel better. I hate crying too, but this shit hurts. Just do it.

(TH) (akward one pat on the back man hug)

I am really sorry. This is hardest thing I have ever dealt with in my life.

It hurts in places you did not know you had.

Let it out. Just let it out. Anger, rage, sadness, etc. Just be kind to yourself.

Take some time away if that helps you. Just a night away in a hotel used to do me a world of good early on.

Keep posting. It really does help. We've all been there. Everyone here understands.

If it helps there is a Betrayed Mens forum in the I can relate section. A lot of guys that are further out hang out there and it might be good to hear some of their stories.