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Not sure. Personality Disorder can mean anything. I just know Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) has no treatment that I'm aware of. Meds or IC doesn't help much. So the chance of relapse is very high, that's why I ask, many spouses simply run out of options aside from Divorce. Google it and see if it fits her.

[This message edited by Randy1133 at 1:45 PM, September 13th (Wednesday)]

Smoke:

I agree that the language I used is telling. I use that word because - while she says all the right things like you just did about not wanting to be a whore, being ashamed and embarrassed, etc. - I know that a lot of people with certain types of PD's are very good and compulsive liars like my W is, and are often quite intelligent and won't think twice about saying the right things and putting on a show of emotion to make you think they're genuine while instead acting purely for their own benefit. That may be an unfair stereotype, though. But it definitely is accurate with respect to my W. For instance, we did a marital session once in 2015 - during the heyday of her many A's - in which she cried and cried because I didn't trust her as a result of explicit EA's she had earlier on in our relationship, and that my lack of trust in her made her feel like a whore, etc. It made an impression on the counselor, who is an experienced and pretty competent mental health and addiction professional.

I just have it in my head that she feels "boxed in" by virtue of being accountable, that she's bored, resentful of having to live a "boring" life, etc.

In fairness to her, nothing in particular she's done in recent months has provided me with a reasonable basis for my feeling this way. I just feel like she was doing those things and having those A's because she loved doing it, loved that life, enjoyed being promiscuous, and wishes she had never gotten caught so she could still be doing that stuff. In my head, if someone didn't love what they were doing, they would otherwise not risk everything to engage in these behaviors.

As I write this, I see one big problem with my thinking: that I'm judging her based on my understanding of how a normal, healthy person would think and act. And she was anything but healthy at the time, to make an understatement.

In any event, it is very comforting to hear that you've been through similar circumstances / also suffer from a PD and are truly all-in on making yourself better. I just have such little faith in my W at this time, and will feel like I've wasted more years of my life than I already have if she ends up doing this again. Combine all this with what my psychiatrist said about the probability of her long-term fidelity and I'm really just freaked out.

Not to muddy the water....

You are correct. Personality Disordered people are your worst nightmare to the power of a million. They can feign the right response, cry on command, etc and the worst part is we buy it all because we're imagining they are normal. (Again, I lack signficant behaviors associated with that particular PD, ie I can not lie to save my life. I could not fool a child, go figure)

There's a time to cut bait and run. My ex is also PD person. Leaving was the best and greatest thing I have ever done for myself.

ALL of your power lies in educating yourself about the disorder. When I delved in, there was nothing he could have done to get me back. That man could have moved heaven and earth, nope no thank you.

Start with educating yourself. Youtube is an amazing resource. It's not just entertainment stuff. There are, for example entire channels dedicated to NPD. I've seen BPD ones, but don't really watch them (the negative connotations, while totally deserved, I'm aware bum me out and make me totally question myself, if that makes sense).

See what happens. If there are things you are meant to see, you WILL see right through them and know what you need to do. Once the rose colored glasses come off, there's no going back on that.

SilverLinings55 said

I do need to get some more detail on this. She only told me it's a serious personality disorder. Not entirely sure there has been a further diagnosis. Is that something that can be diagnosed with specificity after a few months' treatment?

Months of treatment can indeed give a diagnosis.

As you are in R is is very important to understand the nature and implications of the disorder. I make the the assumption due to multiple As, that the disorder is one of the dramatic types aka Cluster B.

Effective therapy is possible, but is generally a long hard slog. Many academic studies on particular treatments for personality disorders rate the benefits as 'moderate': that is kind of code for may or may mot be worthwhile in an individual's case and unlikely to produce great improvements.

That WW has spent months is treatment is actually a positive sign. I do urge you to investigate WW's disorder and understand it.

BTW well played on informing the OBS, that is always the correct action.

[This message edited by Widower at 6:21 PM, September 15th (Friday)]

Ugh man, the bottom line is sometimes I just have to throw up my arms and be honest with myself. I'd like for things to work out for the sake of the kids, but I otherwise don't really give a fuck. I got and have stayed in great shape over the past few years and after dday I proved to myself that meeting other women is now a breeze.

It's really all on her. If she's gonna fail and spiral down the toilet I'm not gonna let yer drag me down with her like sometimes happens when a person is drowning.

^^^^ That is the correct attitude!^^^^^^^^

It is part of the 180, but it's more than that. It shows you have accepted what has happened and that come what may, you will get through it, with or without her.

Being willing to walk away, gives you perspective.

Not to defend her actions in ANY way, but when you talk about how she enjoyed being promiscuous and wishes she could just not be caught so she could carry on...

That's possible. BUT

When you compare the 'thrill' of A life to any other addiction, I mean, most research shows that addicts feel disconnected from their family, community, society in some way, and their addiction is a form of self-medicating distraction from that feeling.

This was very very true of my H who has made statements that shocked me at the time, like, he couldn't talk to me about this or that feeling but he could easily talk about it with an almost stranger. Or he would be embarrassed if I knew such and such but didn't bother hiding it from her. She was his ONLY friend and he had no idea how to make more. He didn't even see how hiding that he was spending time with her was problematic until it went too far. He wasn't even sure if I would care. He wasn't even sure if I had ever loved him. He couldn't remember when we started dating and everything was exciting and fresh. Etc etc

It can take a long time and a lot of difficult effort for someone with that mindset to reconnect to life and see the benefits of not hiding out. We are definitely still super early in that process.

While she is ashamed she may have felt that the only way to hide from her shame was to seek people who engage in the same behaviour. This is desperately broken and flawed thinking, yes. But it's not necessarily an obsession with promiscuity and the 'fun' of having affairs, but an effort to feel better about herself at any cost. Obviously a healthy person can see the end result is not better but much much worse. A damaged person may not, or not until it's too late.

SilverLinings55 said

Ugh man, the bottom line is sometimes I just have to throw up my arms and be honest with myself. I'd like for things to work out for the sake of the kids, but I otherwise don't really give a fuck. I got and have stayed in great shape over the past few years and after dday I proved to myself that meeting other women is now a breeze.

It's really all on her. If she's gonna fail and spiral down the toilet I'm not gonna let yer drag me down with her like sometimes happens when a person is drowning.

It is often said on SI that the spouse who cares least about the M, is the one with the most power over the M: so maybe now you are the one with the power.

If you face the prospect of D from someone with a cluster B disorder, you do need to have an understanding of that disorder and the behaviours that might ensue. Such divorces can be especially nasty. You might consider looking for a lawyer with experience in high conflict divorce.

Silver, I feel for you. Dealing with a spouse with a PD is chaotic at best. Truthfully, your WW sounds a little scary. But you seem to be realistic and you're taking care of yourself, so you will make the best decision when you know what it is. Trust yourself!

smokenfire, I'm always glad to see you post on threads. I was told my STBXH is NPD and I too set out to learn all I could about it. Knowledge is power even when it's the last thing you ever wanted to know. I learn something from every post you make. Thank you!

SL55

Maybe I missed it but you never mentioned if you heard back from the OBS after she confronted. How did that go?

And in general how’s it going b/n you and your WW?

Stevesn:

Thanks for following up. How have you been?

The OBS never followed up with me. When we were messaging that one time, she mentioned something about how he'd been caught having affairs in the past, but didn't admit to this one with my W, jokingly asked me whether I handle divorces (I don't). But then she never followed up with me. I sent the guy a number of messages mocking him, challenging him to meet me in person without actually making a threat, telling him how much of a piece of shit he is, mock his physical appearance, etc. I engage in that sort of behavior sometimes when I trigger.

So anyway, not sure how that debacle ended up on her end. I don't want to bother her by following up because she's pregnant, and has to worry about the baby's health.

As for my W and I, things are going pretty well, thanks. She's doing a fair amount of work on herself with IC and this group for people who suffered childhood trauma. There are times when she's reverted to some "wayward" behavior, like working late at her office twice recently on one of the nights that she's supposed to go to one of her groups and not saying anything to me ... I'm almost certain she did nothing wrong those nights above and beyond basically lying by omission. That concerns me, a good deal, but I'm holding back from saying anything because I'd rather her think I'm not paying attention in case she wanted to try to engage in infidelity again or something.

Overall, things are good. We're being kind and showing affection and doing nice things for each other. But the cloud remains and I'm sure will always be there. And the need to play detective for life fuckin' sucks.

SL

Good to hear. I hope your WW realizes the gift you are giving her.

Does she get it how not telling you she’s working late and missing meetings plays right back into her pattern of lying in the past.

Have you defined in your mind what you have to see to stay and what will cause you to leave?

I’m not sure a life of uneasiness always wondering what she’s up to makes for a happy one. But of course only you can know what you’re able to tolerate at the expense of being someone who is ALL IN to sharing a happy life with you.

Take care.

Stevesn:

Does she get it how not telling you she’s working late and missing meetings plays right back into her pattern of lying in the past.

Yes. She has been confronted about this before, both in and outside of MC. She basically just breaks down and says she needed to work but was scared to tell me she was missing group. It's tired and lame. The problem I have is a tendency to just let this behavior make me care less and I become more distanced and aloof, and then that probably makes her more prone to doing something fucked up again. I'll confront her again about it soon, maybe see if she does the same thing next Wednesday when she's supposed to be at group. She knows she's on thin ice and that I've had it up to here with her bullshit, that I'd have an easy time meeting people without her, etc. She just acts like a total moron.

Have you defined in your mind what you have to see to stay and what will cause you to leave?

Not really. Life is easier staying. I know it is better for the kids. She's doing a lot of things right but seems to struggle with the concept of zero tolerance (a concept that I undermine by putting up with some of her shit). The way I see it is that this is basically the best outcome for me AT THIS MOMENT, but that I can relegate her to the dustbin of history in the blink of an eye if she ever engages in anything remotely approaching flirting with another man, crossing those types of boundaries, etc.

I’m not sure a life of uneasiness always wondering what she’s up to makes for a happy one. But of course only you can know what you’re able to tolerate at the expense of being someone who is ALL IN to sharing a happy life with you.

I agree. We'll see how things go. Right now, on balance she's doing what's needed. But how can anyone really look at their spouse the same way again after an A, particularly when there are multiple, 1 of which was a LTA? My comfort comes from knowing that I can always leave.