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barcher - I believe it is up to the victim to decide whether to report or not.

You know what, I don't know if I agree with you on that anymore (i.e., that was my opinion before, otherwise I would have reported it). I mean, I essentially would be protecting the next victim, would I not?

I guess that is what bothers me. I know in one case that the dude did it again. Admittedly, my opinion on this specific case is colored by how much I hate that guy for other reasons.

I will also say that my employer's new explicit policy (we all had to do training) is that you must report misconduct like this no matter what. So, this spring, I had to report a colleague who claimed that she was struggling get her stuff done because she had a stalker... I literally had to report that, even though I didn't witness anything.

I'll also say that I will definitely tell women (and only women) that they look "pretty" or "nice". I can't recall doing it to strangers, though. I don't think it comes across as creepy when I do it (I definitely don't glare at cleavage when I do it, either -- I always make eye contact).

I guess my motivation is a simple one. You know how you shouldn't say anything if you don't have anything nice to say? Well, I take that a step further and I make sure that I say something if I have something nice to say.

I'll also say that there is no ulterior motive when I compliment someone... other than to brighten both of our days (i.e., it feels good to me to say something nice too).

barcher - I believe it is up to the victim to decide whether to report or not.

You know what, I don't know if I agree with you on that anymore

I don't think that it's right to either (a) take away the victim's power to do that themselves or (b) force the victim further into the trauma and possibly set them up for what can often be perceived as re-victimization. It also seems rather paternalistic, like women can't make this decision for themselves so someone else has to do it for them.

It sounds like you were talking in a work context? I am referring to a police context. Even so, I think it is up to us to create a culture where victims feel free to report rather than to force a reporting.

Yes, this does leave open the possibility or even likelihood that the perpetrater will do it again before being caught. This is why I think it would be helpful to encourage and try to persuade the victim to report. But to take that decision away from them? No.

eta: the victim's first duty is to themself, not to any future potential victims. And I don't believe that anybody else knows what's best for any particular victim's situation.

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 9:29 PM, September 28th (Friday)]

I'll also say that I will definitely tell women (and only women) that they look "pretty" or "nice".

Why the emphasis on appearance? Can't you say something nice to a woman without talking about how she looks?

Also, if you are doing this in a work setting (as opposed to a social setting), it is really unprofessional. And if it is in a social setting, how would your wife feel about that? (ok, not YOUR wife, but wives in general)

Women - well everyone really, but this mostly tends to affect women - should be valued for reasons other than their looks. You're a smart man, I am sure that you can think of something nice to say without bringing looks into it.

Well, damn. I'm saddened to hear y'all think due process and actual evidence is no longer required to convict someone. Just an accusation.

Can't remember where, when, who was there, how they got there/left, but y'all just are 100% certain her memory is perfect in the who.

Are you aware that human memories are notoriously bad, even just hours after an attack - forget 30 years? That hundreds of men have been exonerated by the Innocence Project through DNA, even though 70% of said men were "100%" identified by the victims?

I'm not saying she is lying, but come on - she told an emotional story with absolutely no corroborating evidence and all the people she said were there said it never happened, but y'all are just positive "he did it?"

I was hoping for just ONE verifiable, supporting piece of evidence to corroborate her story, and I'd have been there with the role. But...nothing.

@Worndown, please, this isn't what this thread is about. Can we not derail it this way? Thank you!

Are you serious?

Just about all of Page 7 and MrsWalloped's post's were exactly about this. In fact, so was a post by you:

Another normal, regular, forgettable and unexceptional night for EVERYONE else because they did not experience a trauma. A night that traumatized a girl for life, she remembers. It is typical that some details will be vague for a victim. But, the essential detail will not ever be forgotten. She will never forget who assaulted her. She knew who he was before it happened, she knows exactly who attacked her. I believe her.

Or is this just another case of you not liking what someone posts and claiming "Off topic!"?

[This message edited by WornDown at 12:08 AM, September 29th (Saturday)]

Well, damn. I'm saddened to hear y'all think due process and actual evidence is no longer required to convict someone. Just an accusation.

Don't give us that, please.

Due process is often not followed properly in these cases. Hell, if due process involves character assassination of a potential victim of sexual assault, furthering their trauma, the victim suffering a severe invasion of privacy while the courts search for evidence while the defendant comparatively suffers very little invasion of privacy, and a continued backlog of rape kits, as well as police discretion which can stall the whole thing from the very start... What a survivor needs is someone to connect with them on a human level. That's what we're doing here.

Tell us this, then. What if a person is assaulted but unable to provide evidence? Say, it happened long ago with no witnesses during childhood. Or maybe the assailant forced the victim to wash and thus destroyed all evidence? Or any number of other situations. What would you have us do? Just accept that someone violated us but hey there's nothing that can be done legally to get them convicted, so we might as well not even talk about it?

What the heck would you do in this situation, if it were you?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:04 AM, September 29th (Saturday)]

Actually, come to think of that, let's not answer that here. Sister is right, and that would be derailing the thread. You could start a new thread, perhaps?

@Worndown, I just feel that is going to bring us too perilously close to political issues. To keep us all safe and within guidelines lets not go down that path. Can we please stick to the topic of why women don't tell, and if they do tell, or want to tell, who can we tell safely?

...this isn't what this thread is about. Can we not derail it this way? Thank you!

SMS, it was me who suggested in the Menz thread that they read this. I didn't encourage anyone to chime in and I've thus far been reluctant to do so myself for reasons that I thought would be obvious. Threads often take on a life of their own but this thread 'should' have never been one of them.

"Who do you tell?" Everyone! Shout it from the roof tops, in the media, on Fakebook, whatever! You've started a thread here on SI and I applaud you for doing so. FWIW, I believe you. Every word.

My BH is a good man. He has integrity and a strict moral code. He’s lived his life with honor and respect for all. In Yiddish he’s what’s known as a mentsch. Throughout his career he’s had many women working for him and with him. Some were lower level and some were senior executives. If an employee unjustly accused my husband of sexual assault, then belligerent and angry wouldn’t even come close to describing how he’d respond. He be outraged and livid. His sense of self and personal integrity is not just being challenged, but he’d be accused of being the lowest kind of worm possible, just above child predators. He’d be furious and he’d defend himself vigorously and aggressively and I would cheer him on and support him every step of the way.

As gently as I can say this, Mrs. Walloped... Unjustly accused is one thing. Justly accused is another. You presume too much.

Never in a million years would I have thought my wife capable of infidelity and yet here I am. I'm not trying to compare infidelity and sexual assault, only trying to point out that our perceptions and reality don't always align.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 3:34 AM, September 29th (Saturday)]

I'm not SisterMilkshake (and I wish I could give her a big hug - creating this thread, dealing with these triggers, and remaining as strong as she has makes me admire her greatly), but I will say thank you, Unhinged. I saw what you posted on the Menz thread. Thank you for encouraging other guys to read this thread. I hope they all read it. Thank you for reading it and for listening, for taking it seriously, for believing us, for not looking away.

It should be obvious but I'll say it anyway: misidentifications of the types reversed by Innocence projects are not typically by individuals who KNOW the offender. Here, we are talking about people who know each other so the question of misidentification really does not arise.

In addition, the opportunity to present additional evidence, such as testimony from others or other types of evidence, was not allowed - in fact, was explicitly NOT allowed.

So I think that WornDown is making our point for us. Setting the bar impossibly high keeps us quiet and 'in our place'. I suggest reading the many stories in this thread (if you haven't already) and let us know what other evidence you think we need in order to be listened to. And why we need it in the first place.

We are here talking about what happened to us, not making random accusations against innocent people. We should be listened to and believed. Whether that belief gets translated into anything happening in the justice system is a completely different question.

Thank you Unhinged.

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 5:27 AM, September 29th (Saturday)]

2-8% are false reports. in cases where multiple women report the actions of one man, I'm going to assume something criminal happened.

It sounds like you were talking in a work context? I am referring to a police context.

Yes, I was talking about a work context.

I can't imagine that I would report something to the police, but maybe I would. I dunno, I hadn't thought about it much. I suppose if I stumbled upon something that had just happened, then I would call the police/ambulance/etc.

Even so, I think it is up to us to create a culture where victims feel free to report rather than to force a reporting.

No disagreement from me there.

Why the emphasis on appearance? Can't you say something nice to a woman without talking about how she looks?

Yes, of course, I can say something nice without discussing appearance... and I do that too.

But if a friend/colleague who normally wears jeans and a t-shirt to work suddenly shows up in a business suit (for example), I'll say something like "you look nice today."

The reason that I don't something similar to men is due to psychological BS from my FOO. I don't get along with men very often or very well.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 7:15 AM, September 29th (Saturday)]

I'm honestly worried that's it's going to come to having to teach our children that the moment they are assaulted the only recourse is immediate and extreme violence.

Some guy grabs you, break his hand.

A guy whips out his dick, kick him in the balls.

I want to share a Facebook post here but I can't copy and paste it (hate this phone?)

It's about a professor who split the chalk board down the center with a line. Then he asked the men:"what steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent being assaulted?"

The only answer, made while giggling was one guy who said "not go to prison".

Professor then asked the woman. Their list was long.

Keep keys out in my hand.

Never go out after dark.

Never walk/jog alone.

If I order a drink I watch it get poured. If I put it down and look away, I get a new drink.

I carry mace.

I keep my cell phone out.

That's not even close to the entire list.

This shit is ingrained into every woman.

I had to drop the Van off yesterday for its safety. Then walk down to the bank. I'd usually walk with my eyes glued to the ground. Instead I was scanning every house, driveway, vehicle that passed me. I stuck to the main roads, not side streets which made the walk longer. I shouldn't have to walk in fear.

But if a friend/colleague who normally wears jeans and a t-shirt to work suddenly shows up in a business suit (for example), I'll say something like "you look nice today."

Well implicit here is that she doesn't look nice the other days. But that aside, why not just say 'that's a nice suit' instead, rather than commenting more specifically on how she looks in it? Here, you might also be complimenting her taste, showing a value beyond personal appearance.

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 7:54 AM, September 29th (Saturday)]

ZenMumWalking, so if you had done something special for whatever reason to make yourself look better, then I should ASSUME that you will feel insulted if people notice??

What a HELL of a way to live life just looking at how many ways you can feel "bad" because we are doing what we were TAUGHT was a good thing to make people feel better and spread good feelings??? Damn must be a very dark world you live in if when someone gives you a compliment you then immediately think "He must think that I looked like shit yesterday because he didn't compliment me then"!

There is a cultural change going on and us old folk are apparently playing the same game with new and different rules! I was always taught that "it doesn't take brains to be nice" . I have always tried to be a genuine "Nice Guy". Why I don't know because I was always way more successful with women when I was a "Bad Boy"!

I apologize but I will continue to play by the old rules when paying a compliment. It makes ME feel better thing I might have just put a little unexpected smile and a slightly good feeling in somebody's day.

I NEVER try to turn any compliment into a chance to "see where it goes", NOT my intention nor is it conveyed in any actions I make. If I walk up to you and in a polite tone of voice and manner and pay you a compliment then say I hope you have a wonderful day. Then I just walk away feeling good. It actually sometimes takes guts to do because it is a stranger. I will say so far in at least 56 yeas of doing this I have NEVER had a bad reaction from anybody I compliment!!

I never do this if there is a boyfriend there because I do NOT want to cause any drama for whom ever I am trying to compliment. (I'm 6'2" 205 lbs with a "bad attitude") as far as men are concerned but I am cautious because I want to be careful of generating a jealous attitude that she would spend the rest of the night having to deal with. That would accomplish the exact opposite of what I wished to accomplish which is to establish a mild good feeling from the compliment.

I sincerely try to avoid generating pain of any kind to anybody around me. I know how it feels "Never being good enough" so I will continue trying to spread a little joy and happiness in this world.

No I do not compliment men on their looks, unless in a discussion with my wife to find out what she likes in men, because again that was my upbringing BUT if I have a really nice dinner out I do complement the chef and or the wait staff. I mean everybody bitches when food is not done right and VERY few people pay complements any more so I try to.

JMO YMMV

What a HELL of a way to live life just looking at how many ways you can feel "bad" because we are doing what we were TAUGHT was a good thing to make people feel better and spread good feelings???

I'm not looking for ways to feel bad, I'm pointing out that complimenting a woman based on her appearance reinforces the culture that women are valued based on looks and not for other characteristics. Even if you think it's a compliment and makes you a 'nice guy'.

We all do things to make ourselves 'pretty', that's part of going out in public as social animals. That's not an invitation for any random person to comment on how I look.

I apologize but I will continue to play by the old rules when paying a compliment.

So in other words you are not apologizing, since you canceled that out with 'but'. Leaving that aside, the 'old rules' that you speak of do not exist - it was never considered polite to comment on someone's appearance (especially opposite sex), whether you consider that comment to be positive or not.

if I have a really nice dinner out I do complement the chef and or the wait staff.

But you don't tell them that they look nice, do you? You tell them how much you enjoyed the food or the service, what a good job they are doing. That they have value for that.

That's what I'm saying. Compliment the barista because they made you a great tasting coffee. Compliment the dry cleaner clerk because they are so efficient at getting you your stuff. Compliment the cashier at the check-out counter for their patience when they are so busy. There are LOTS of opportunities to 'be nice' and give compliments to random strangers without commenting on their appearance.

Women have been judged on their appearance in all aspects of life for too long. It is objectification and sexist, whether you think it is or intend it to be or not. Be part of the solution, not the problem.

eta: if a compliment on my looks comes from a man I know, I usually just say 'thank you' and assume that he doesn't know any better. If it's a random man on the street, that's what I find creepy.

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 9:31 AM, September 29th (Saturday)]

DragnHeart, I saw that fb post and found it incredibly powerful. I live in a fairly safe small city and take barre classes 4 nights a week, usually getting out around 7ish. I always keep my cell phone in one hand and keys between my fingers in my other, just in case during the fall, winter, and spring as I walk to the parking lot about a block away. I never park in the garage and I am constantly scanning the sidewalks. I brought this up to my H and he advised me to get an unrestricted carry permit for my pistol. I don't really want to have to arm myself to go to the gym, but things keep getting scarier for women.

This thread is a reminder to all of us survivors out there that we need a place to tell our stories, so thank you for your courage in speaking up SisterMilkshake.