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This seems to be my biggest struggle. It's been 7+ months since D-Day. I came clean to her.

The thing I struggle with is forgiving myself prior to knowing if she has forgiven me. My IC says that I should let this go. He says I am keeping myself in a self imposed prison.

My question for WS is how long did it take you to stop feeling like a terrible person, and forgive yourself? Did you need your BS forgiveness in order to move to that point, or did you forgive yourself first?

Interesting question. It's one I ask myself from time to time.

I am 16 months out from the A. I have stopped even trying to talk myself into that. I don't really think that is on my H's radar either.

But, often when I think about it, I think what we are looking for is mental peace. Our BS's would like mental peace too. Seeing my H looking for that when he's always been content and easy going reminds me that I am the cause of it.

So, I think the ways I find mental peace is accepting I did this. I accept that I caused these issues, I accept they are in my life for some time to come. I concentrate on being the best me I can be in the situation that I have created each day. I get in little hang up times when I want to go back and wallow in the shame or overthink myself to death, but each time I can pull myself out quicker and quicker. The reason is that those feelings don't help my H,and they don't help me. So, my focus each day is on what does. This mental shift has been rather recent and I am not sure if I could have grasped it at 7 or 8 months out.

I basically crowd out the wallowing with action. Not hiding behind busy, but by taking actions that make me feel good about myself. Doing something kind for my husband or a coworker or a friend, or donating time or resources to something greater than myself. If I have anxiety that day, I go for a run or a walk whether it's one of my running days or not. I can't tell you what being mindful and in the moment does for grounding me. I say this probably so much people are sick of hearing me say it...

But I think that one of the themes I see on the board so much that I can't even keep anyone straight from another is the wallowing, the overthinking, it paralyzes you from moving forward. I have just gotten through another period of this about a month or so ago and so many lightbulbs went on for me that the only thing that makes me feel better are taking actions, doing a little each day adds up.

I don't know that I will be able to forgive my actions, I certainly don't like them. I don't like anything about them. But, I can practice self-compassion. I can be a better person for myself and for my husband. But, you can't think your way to it. You can't wallow your way to it or self-flagellate yourself into it. You have to show up every day - be present. Do your best. When you fail, take note and try a different route next time. The more I have invested into my husband, my marriage, my health, boundaries, learning new passions that bring that fire to my life that I was lacking...the more I do towards that every day the closer I get. And, slowly and surely I have become more confident that I can take anything that's coming, the more I like who I am becoming, the more excited I get about my life. That's not to say there isn't pain and issues to work through, it's framing them all differently.

I don't know if this ramble is helping you, but I just know you can't think your way to it...you have to do it. The more you do it the more demonstrable it is to your spouse, and that's doing your part.

So, it might sound trite when I say cook a nice meal that you focus fully on, or be present as you do your chores, or whatever mindfulness I am trying to provide examples of. But, this will ignite a joy inside that if you foster it, it will grow and so will you.

Eventually, maybe as this all adds up over time, you might even bring compassion to the person you were when you had the affair. I don't know, I am not there yet but I hope I am on my way.

I don't see ever forgiving myself, and I don't believe my BW will ever forgive me either. I've concluded that neither of these is necessary to move on with our lives.

On the other hand, I'm not a terrible person, I'm an extremely flawed person who made terrible choices and put my needs ahead of hrs. I'm am becoming a new person, one that can be trusted, although she may never again, one that deals with his demons head on instead of ignoring them so long that my choices once again become poisonous. This new person needs no forgiveness, just the opportunity to earn the right to stay, to be loved, to be accepted.

I'm 3 years into the new me, nowhere near done, but improving and growing regularly, with new coping skills and decision making processes.

Only you can decide how forgiveness fits into your personal recovery. I decided I didn't need it to become the person both my BS and I deserve. That person is dead to both of us.

Good luck!

I wish I had the answer.

I am surrounded by so many of the same things, people, places from the EA (due to career) that it’s a CONSTANT reminder of what I’ve done. It makes it hard to forgive myself and it’s also probably a large part of why my husband just won’t try to process the things that we need to work through. How could he when I’m still here? He “acts” like it’s fine but if I were him I couldn’t fathom it. I’m relieved I no longer have to see the woman he had been texting. If I did (or knew he did) I would go crazy.

The surroundings or reminders have changed in the process. First, the reminders served as connections which reinforced the fog. That was an horrible time. I am glad no one heard any of my fog phase thoughts. I was very messed up. I wept over things that now I think “what the heck was wrong with me?”.

Thankfully, the reminders then transitioned into shame. I am currently stuck in the shame but I am hopeful because at one point I was stuck in the fog. I know my realization of what I did (and fear of what else I could be capable of) has paralyzed me in this state.

I think I will need my husband’s forgiveness before I can self-forgive. I have sought it and he says he has but there’s just so much still under the surface of our day to day life that it just seems superficial, sorta like a bandaid on a cut artery.

[This message edited by BrokenTogether at 8:28 PM, October 31st (Wednesday)]

See that is something I wonder as well. I have this feeling like I can't forgive myself without my wife's forgiveness. But I wonder if I would even accept it if she did?

The message at church this past Sunday was that God will not forgive us if we don't "want" to be forgiven. See we ask for forgiveness, but do we truly want it?

I can also see the point of never forgiving yourself, and possibly your BS never forgiving you as well. It guess it depends on your definition.

I think forgiveness is letting go of the bad feelings attached to something. I think if you can let go of the bad feelings then you have truly forgiven.

I count my blessings every day.

The problem is most people emotionally see forgiveness as absolving. I would agree that it’s more about putting down the ill feelings but I often think that is something that the BS does for themselves and not for our benefit. And that is kind of a big difference than what we are actually seeking. It’s kind of a way or a magical thing that will make us be able to say okay this can go away now and that isn’t realistic.

We hold it for ourselves sometimes as self punishment or we get in these patterns where the negative emotions are something we are addicted to.

That’s why I say you need to try and bring in the positive feelings - joy especially is not something that is really contingent on your circumstances. Read the power of now. Cultivate the mental peace and I believe you will begin acting and making decisions and thoughts from a different space. One that is more helpful to your healing.

I have forgiven myself. That doesn't mean that I don't feel guilt and pain for what I have done, but I no longer hate myself for it. I no longer spend time crying and loathing myself for my actions, because that does nothing towards my healing.

If I can't forgive myself, then how can I expect others to forgive me?

After my affair, my IC asked me if I had apologized to those I had hurt (other than BS). I hadn't. It was very cathartic to me to call and say I was sorry. And ALL of them forgave me.

The only person who hasn't is my BS and I know he never will. It is really unforgivable, and I do not ever expect him to and I am ok with that.

Pinkpggy,

I hope you are incorrect that your BS will never forgive. Not for you, but for your BS. I know forgiveness isn't for us. It's for them. For them to let go of the pain. "Unforgivable" means your BS will never let go of the bad feelings. I think we all have to get there at some point. I don't know how long it takes. But you can't live in this forever.

We have already discussed it and he knows forgiveness is for him, not me but he says he will never let go of the anger and forgive me. I'm ok with that. That is his burden and pain to carry, I can't tell him otherwise. I would hope over time my actions would show him that I am safe and he can forgive me if he chooses, but I don't expect or need him to.

I think that is also part of my healing, letting go of the need to be forgiven by him. It is his journey, not mine.

I don't disagree with you. It's his choice. And you can't change that.

Whats funny is I never really thought about it until I read this post. I never really sat around and thought if I had forgiven myself, but I have. I feel a sense of peace about it. I have found I don't cry as much, I don't dwell as much, I don't have roller coaster emotions regarding my affair (my own issues with it) as much. I just don't want it to control me any more.

I have just recently read several articles around inspiring forgiveness and found a meditation around moving from self-hate. And I think @pinkpggy is right, you can't do either of those things without forgiving yourself. But I do agree that it requires some reframing of what "forgiveness" is (to what @hikingout wrote). For me personally, I had always thought of forgiveness as "forgive and forget", because for the most part all the things I've had to forgive or have done that warrant forgiveness were not life-altering things. Infidelity is one of those things, and even if we are a hint remorseful, we can see how insurmountable a task it is to "forgive" if we look at it from that traditional perspective. For me, I don't think I'll ever move onto where @pinkpggy is until I can successfully redefine and truly accept that new definition. I'm sure it is different for every WS and every BS for that matter, but the bottom line is, "it" (however you define forgiveness) is essential for recovery.

[This message edited by destroyedwayward at 2:04 PM, November 1st (Thursday)]

Don't get me wrong. I still have a ways to go, I still need help. I still struggle. I havent let go of the guilt or embarrassment or the sick feeling I get when I do think about it. But I know I'm not that person any more.

I do think you are right. In most other cases we believe forgiveness means no longer ever thinking about what happened. In this case it's not forget. Forgiving means letting go of the bad feelings (more of an acceptance, than it is forgiveness).

For me, forgetting will never happen nor do I want it to. I will always, regardless of the M, want it as a landmark of my lowest self and as a marker to never come close to it ever again. But the "forgiveness" part I need to work on...

Holding onto all that anger, hate and disgust you feel towards yourself will only hold you back from becoming a better person. And while being a better version of yourself is essential for your partner, I also feel it is essential for the WS as well. Everyone does horrible things they feel guilty about. Cheating on someone is an awful thing to do but you cannot allow yourself to wallow in the pain forever. You along with I are still early out in the steps of getting through infidelity. I heal more and more everyday. My H and I don’t really talk about it he doesn’t want to he said he is only looking forward not backwards. I am always here for him when he wants to talk about it though and I’ve made that clear. So instead I allow myself to be a safe partner. Before my ONS, I drank all the time. I was depressed from being alone in a new state with no friends or family and having a partner who was gone a lot of the time for work. So I didn’t do anything to take care of myself or him. I slept most of the time, I hardly cleaned or Cooked leaving all of the responsibilities to him when he came home. Was that fair? No. Did I care? No. Because I was selfish I allowed myself to wallow in my depression which only furthered my drinking which pushed my H away which pushed me more into depression which eventually allowed me to have a ONS. all of this because I didn’t take care of myself or my household mentally or physically. Now that I have been blessed by my H with another chance I am so different now. I workout all the time, I clean, I cook, I go to IC, I am on meds for my depression. It’s like my entire body has shed the old dark selfish depressed woman I once was and I can feel my new skin basking in the warm sunlight I can call life.H and I laugh all the time. We go out and do things together where as before he didn’t want to be social or active with me. I feel like I haven’t been this in love with life in awhile. Is it perfect between us? No and we will still have this wound I have opened for years to come. But I don’t let it have a hold on me because then I would spiral back into the dark place that didn’t allow my to be a good wife in the first place. If you don’t water a flower it won’t grow. We have done wrong but there is also so much good you have done in life and if feel you haven’t start now. At work I have started a turkey donation drive to go back to families in the area who can’t afford thanksgiving meals. It’s the little things. Forgiveness is hard. Loving yourself again is hard. No matter what you’ve done. They say it’s easier to forgive other people than to forgive yourself. You have to start to dig down deep and try though. Say nice things about yourself. Make a list of all the pros you’ve done. Good people do awful things but that doesn’t mean you’re an awful person. Water yourself. Make yourself a better you and you will start to allow the self forgiveness to enter your life. It’s a process but it’s possible in my opinion anyways.

I would also like to add I’m not saying everything is all rainbows and butterflies. I do still have that ache of guilt and pain but when I feel it creep up on me I stop it in it’s tracks. I will take it and turn it into something positive such as make some sweet treats for H or clean up or send him a cute message while he’s working or stop by the grocery store so he doesn’t have too. Pay the bills instead of him etc. don’t let it consume you but rather motivate you.

I am about 3 weeks from our 3-year anniversary of D-day. From my experience so far, both personally and from what I've seen on SI, there doesn't seem to be a predictable timeline in terms of forgiveness, either for ourselves or our spouses. At the 8 month mark, I have to admit that I was simply not ready to cross that hurdle.

Let me ask you something... for a moment, let's pretend that you ARE able to forgive yourself, and do so. Now what? What does that mean to you, or what does it do for you? What does it gain or remove in your life or your relationship or struggles? Does it really fix or change anything? Why do you need to forgive yourself in order to move on?

The affair is part of your life story. The same as that time you pooped your pants, or asked your crush out, or got turned down by your crush, or scored the big play in the game, or graduated school, or called your best friend a bitch, or got so sick you almost died. We all have positive and negative experiences that make us the person we are today. This is simply one more.

Forgive yourself, don't forgive yourself... it makes little difference in the end, in my opinion anyway. The big question, and this is the one my wife asks me all the time, is... "What are you going to do about it?"

Here is what I suggest. You will probably never "be okay" with what you did, and in my opinion, you shouldn't be. It was a terrible thing, and the scars will last a lifetime, for both of you. Rather than seeing it as a reason to hate or punish yourself, instead see it as a stepping stone, a lesson, a reason to motivate yourself to change and be someone better. WS's have a tendency to wallow in hurt and shame anyway, and we don't need to feed that beast any more than we already have.

Try this. Close your eyes, take a few deep breaths, and then say the following out loud, slowly and clearly.

"I cheated on my spouse. I did it on purpose. It was wrong, I knew that, and I did it anyway. There was no way I could love my spouse and betray them so bitterly. I am not proud of what I did, and it was not okay. Admitting that changes nothing however. Feeling guilty changes nothing either. The only thing that makes a change, is change itself. From now on, I will look back at this, not with guilt and shame, but with drive and intention. I will embrace the affair and never forget about it, because it showed me who I really am, and I never want to be that kind of person ever again. The person who cheated, and the person I am today, are the same person. From now on, I will be a better person. A better me."

You can't change the past. You just can't. You can only change how you react to it, and how you interpret it. Right now, guilt and shame are simply more symptoms of a selfish and entitled point of view. It's easier to feel sorry for ourselves than to have the courage, conviction and fortitude to do something about it.

Last thought. If you hit a dog in the road, you'd likely feel really guilty over it. But hopefully, not so guilty that you wouldn't stop and drive the dog to the vet to help it. Your guilt won't help the dog to feel better, nor will it pay the vet bills. The way to stop feeling guilty over having done something wrong is to take whatever actions you can to fix it. Get the dog to the vet, and learn to drive more carefully in the future, and take any other steps you can to assure you never hit another dog if you can help it.

The affair is the same. The guilt will subside at some point, at least some, and the best way to initiate that is to let it go, and work on positive change. You'll feel better when you are no longer a person that could do that to someone.

anxietydepressio,

II know it isn't what I have been told my therapists and this site but I feel the sane as you. I will never forgive myself without my BS forgiving me first and that will never happen. The thing that caused my BS's pain and what allowed me to continue to treat her like crap was my forgiving myself through rationalization and that just made everything worse and worse.

[This message edited by islesguy at 7:27 AM, November 3rd (Saturday)]

For me, years out from A, feeling/not feeling like a terrible person has been a rollercoaster.

When I see my husband in pain, I condemn myself. When I fully face the devastation that I caused and explore my defective character traits, I condemn myself.

Then, when I focus on committing to being a decent person, and becoming worthy of respect and trust from my husband, and try to act on that every day, I feel some respect for myself. As pinkpggy says, "I am not that person [who had the affair] anymore."