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My therapist says that both my wife (BS) and I (WS) are codependent. What I’m starting to believe is that I was more codependent than I ever imagined. No, let me say that differently. I never imagined I WAS/AM ‘codependent’. I mean, what??? How is that possible? I thought she was. But she was codependent in a complementary way. And that’s why it was the perfect unhealthy yet functional relationship. By being and doing all the things she couldn’t, she didn’t have to. At the same time, she did all the things that I couldn’t or wouldn’t do. We supported each other but we masked each other, and this translated into an emotional disconnect, two ships in the sea, passing each other by in the dark…. We pulled our weight in ways that ensured both of us did not have to participate too much in each other’s areas, both taking care of each other, and distancing. Looking back, it was emotional laziness on my part. Sound familiar?

I recently read of this concept that the notion that two halves make up a whole relationship is deeply flawed. A better way to look at a healthy relationship is 1+1=3. Two people working together invest in that third part, their relationship. They do not complete each other as a whole, necessarily; they come together to invest in that third part (their relationship). The concept is simple but if you apply it the notion of codependence, you no longer try to compensate for your partner (I know she did for me) but you try to be the best version of yourself, both of you, to invest in that third component of the relationship. Not 50/50. More like 50/50/50.

It’s quite possible I used our mutual codependencies to mask the hard work I needed to do. Well, I know I did. I even enjoyed it. It's like I wanted more weight on my shoulders but then used this as a justification. What an illusion that was.

Did anyone else have a similar experience? Sound familiar?

(This comes with a giant footnote: no amount of codependence justifies infidelity or the pain I caused…)

[This message edited by Pdxguy at 2:57 PM, December 18th (Tuesday)]

For sure. I've been very needy, wanting to have others praise and compliment me. My wife on the other hand, was more about "fixing me" or going along with whatever made me happy. I often saw her as my "mother" (not in the literal sense, but as a strong female figure in my life) and she often mothered me. So we fed each other in that regard. No, not an excuse for anything, but important to realize so that it can be avoided.

By the way, my wife says that relationships (marriage) are 100%/100%. A lot of people say it is 50/50 but that kind of says that you are only putting in half your effort to the relationship. Ideally, each partner puts in 100%.

Ugh, I have so much to learn....

But not for this relationship, since it's over. I guess for the next one....or just for living in general.

[This message edited by Pdxguy at 3:56 PM, December 18th (Tuesday)]

I have not gotten to this topic of "codependency" yet but I will tell you my opinions on the the typical man/woman relationship...

I think the best relationship is one that compliments each other. No matter how much we, as women, are being told today that we are equal, we are not. And that is ok! I am talking about equal in the sense of strength, endurance, risk taking, problem solving. Inturn, women are more expressive, compassionate, adaptive, empathetic. These are not gender exclusive but have been proven to be stronger in one sex over the other.

My BS and I had never built anything in our lives but had to make a project together and it was really eye opening as far as our strengths and weaknesses. He easily grasped spacial awareness and could almost build the project in his head, whereas I found the idea phase incredibly difficult to wrap my head around and he would have to break it down smaller for me... However, when we would hit frustrating parts of the project and I could tell it had the ability to spin in a bad direction I was able to ground us and pull us back to the present task at hand.

These are just small examples of strengths that we each bring to a relationship. He has wonderful qualities that I don't and there might be some that he would like that I possess too. We are learning from each other and aiding each other at the same time.

I will read up more on codependency but perhaps I just saw an opportunity to vent about society today trying to tell men and women that we should be ashamed of who we are instead of seeing the natural gifts we can bring to eachothers lives.

I'm in the same boat. I'm discovering just how codependent I was.

From the moment we moved in I helped, and eventually took over, with cleaning, laundry, bills, finances, getting kid's ready for school and bed, getting my STBX whatever she needed (from the store, a drink from the gas station, etc), groceries, it went on and on. Thanks to Credit Cards money was no object. I could buy her whatever she wanted and as the years went on I tried to buy my happiness.

I would do all of the chores while she wanted to wait til later. I was of the mindset "Let's get it done so we don't have to do it later." She was of the mindset "Let's do it later. I'll get to it when I get to it. Don't tell me what to do."

The more I did, the harder I tried, the more I thought SURELY she'll love me and see how great of a husband I am.

WRONG! It only made me 1) more resentful because she wasn't putting in the same effort. 2) made me controlling (I mistook it as responsible) 3) enabling to her not taking care of herself and responsibilities 4) A martyr (Oh pity me! Look at all I'm doing and she's not doing anything).

I mistakenly put my happiness in her hands and in the validation of social media. I mean she's my wife. She's supposed to make ME happy and I'm supposed to make HER happy. What's so hard about that? Well everything when you really don't like yourself deep down inside. And relying on others for validation/affirmation and happiness was more toxic than I ever thought or knew. Not only that, but it set me up for cheating.

I cheated because I was miserable inside. Perhaps the marriage wasn't working, but I pinned my unhappiness on her and not helping and being a contributing spouse (when really I was enabling her to not be!). I told myself the one person who was supposed to give me happiness wasn't supplying it. I'm a care-taker/rescuer. I would go find "projects", women in need and use their neediness to patch my desire to feel needed and then vent to them my marital issues (martyr) and thus began crossing boundaries (manipulation) and getting my fix on limerence and attention and someone desiring my care-taking abilities. It was never about sex, although the fantasy was nice to think about when caught up in the chatting and texting, it was about fulfilling that emotional need my wife was neglecting. (I did use sex with my wife as a coping mechanism for stressful days or trying to keep the intimacy in our marriage. It even got to the point with 3 kids it became more of a "hey wanna have sex this Thursday? Sure if the kid's are good. Ok I'll schedule it." I did use the sex talk/fantasy with AP to distract me from day stresses/marriage issues/personal accountablity of going to a damn therapist to address these issues.) I relied so much on others for my happiness I didn't even know how to make myself happy. Even now through this journey I'm asking myself "What makes me happy?"

I got so lost in my 8 years of marriage of people pleasing, trying to please her, enabling her behavior, and using others problems as a deflection of needing to address mine that I don't even know who I am right now. No longer will I put my happiness in the hands of others, nor will I expect it. I'd like to think had I discovered this sooner (MUCH SOONER) that our marriage could have been saved, but I think I could have atleast stuck to my integrity instead of eroding it away to the point of being ashamed of who I am and what I've done. But I'm slowly rebuilding day by day new boundaries, re-prioritizing my integrity and putting my happiness in my hands.

I hope this helps some in helping you feel not alone. I'm reading "The Human Magnet Syndrome" by Ross Rosenberg and "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie. I highly recommend "Codependent No More" as a starting point.

This message board has also been VERY beneficial.

EDIT: I'll add this about codependency as well, at least for me. My STBX and I did go to marriage counseling and were told "you're codependent on each other" and that was that. Little did I know that it would be something you have to remain aware of and work on constantly nor how it effects not only romantic relationships but friendships as well. Again, had I known how much work is needed to break free of codependency I would have taken a more vigilant effort to be mindful of it and not just "oh you take these chores and I take these and we have more individual time and we're fixed". If only it was that simple.

[This message edited by ElZorro at 4:42 PM, December 18th (Tuesday)]

ElZorro, I share most of these thoughts except that at a certain point I chose to be selfish and just take and take. She and I definitely co-enabled each other though. The codependency thing isn't a panacea for what we went wrong through or why. The big WHY is something I struggle to understand. It comes in layers and waves. There are the choices. There is the selfishness. There's the psychology of it, including childhood issues that were previously unknown until now. There's her; there's me. It's just one big giant heap of lessons learned. The tragedy in this is that I had to fuck up before coming to these realizations.

SelfishCheater, I'm not arguing with or against couples being complementary in personality or even roles. It's when those roles enable us to be our least selves that they become a problem.

DaddyDom, I like the 100%/100% thing. As simple as this may sound, such an approach would resolve a lot of marital issues.

I never criticized my wife in our 16 years of marriage, at least not on those topics that make a person feel insecure. She has many wonderful traits (kind, generous, beautiful, nurturing) but also a few flaws that I think have left her feeling limited in life. The repetition of these flaws spoken from her own mouth grated on me over the years. I supported her in everything, but time and time again she came to a wall, swearing she gave it her all, whether it was her profession, losing weight, health, etc. She wanted to go hiking so I would do everything I could to support her. She thought about graduate school and I supported here there, but she never acted on it. Time and time again I supported her but never pushed her because I wanted her to find herself and to take ownership. She’s the most amazing mother ever, but I’m talking about one’s personal needs/goals. I never said anything, and yet I was so disappointed in the repetition of it. I don’t mind failure, but years and years and years of complaining about the inability to accomplish that thing that lingered in her life. It began to feel like she didn’t love me. Let me stop there, because you might ask, how does her failure to accomplish something affect me? Well, it felt like I wasn't worth it for her to be her best. I wanted to be my best for her all the time. I wanted her to be attracted to me in every way. And yet, I feel like she was vocal about criticism of me when it came up. And I resented this too. I tried to give her an amazing home. I tried and succeeded to improve our financial state. I did all of these things so she would have the space to rise up. And when she didn’t…when the repetition of her own outspoken failure would come up again…. You know, I never once thought she was unattractive. But suspect, if she were being truly honest, that she was deeply insecure about this. Maybe if she had just been happy with who she was, I wouldn’t be writing about it now. Or, maybe, just maybe I’m the kind of person who has to accomplish everything and that was too much for, and maybe I used that as a coping mechanism or a way to co-enable. I’m really not sure. I do know, and you can call me out on it if you want, that if I don’t love myself, how can I love her. And if she doesn’t love herself, how can she be loved. And if we both fail to love ourselves, how can we ever receive or give love?

(and now I need to put down the coffee for the day)

[This message edited by Pdxguy at 6:07 PM, December 18th (Tuesday)]

That's another dynamic to my marriage that I can relate to PDXGUY.

We were vastly different in terms of our motivation within ourselves. I was a "let's go! Let's get things done." She was "Let's stay in, keep things the way they are.

Case in point, I wanted to hang pictures up and decorate our home with her and have it be an "us" project. She would most of the time say no because she wanted her mom and sister over to help.

When we met she wanted to eat better and work out more. I was already in a healthy eating regime and work out program so I thought I could motivate her with my actions and help her build self esteem. When it came to it, she had no desire to make the changes needed or even try. But she sure did like talking about it.

She would tell me how nice it would be to have this and that or go on this trip and have this vehicle. Being the people pleaser, and not knowing my own personal boundaries, I'd work to make it happen. Then she would get frustrated at me because I wasn't home enough with the family at night and that I was always working. Yet, what we had wasn't enough. (If it was, definitely didn't take a step back to appreciate it. I'm guilty of not doing the same in my pursuit of pleasing).

I would tell her how beautiful she was to me, how I loved her smile, her laugh, her nose, the way her eyes lit up, her voice, the way she cared for our kids and how cute it was when she was upset over something trivial and the way she'd get excited for her movies or Maroon 5 song. Things like that, so it wasn't just always physical. Yet, it wasn't enough or she didn't believe me. Deep down I know it's because she's always had issues liking her self. For our marriage I got more and more frustrated that she wouldn't believe me or take to heart what I was saying. Now I realize she was never going to accept it because of how low her self esteem was.

She almost didn't take a job that paid more with less hours and had better benefits because she didn't think she could do it. It was a battle to talk her up.

Whether they're fishing for compliments or really don't believe what we're saying, it ulimately comes down to lack of self-esteem and relying on us to power/prop them up. Similar to how I need others to feed my happiness, they drain us of compliments for just the tiniest bit of self-esteem. If that makes any sense.

[This message edited by ElZorro at 5:39 PM, December 18th (Tuesday)]

ElZorro, there are a lot of similarities. I think it went both ways for us. For example, I rarely changed diapers and frankly slept through most of the nights when the kids were babies (granted: my worklife was intense and her job was the home, and she did a great job).

I don't know. I hate pointing fingers knowing I wasn't man enough to just end it or do anything other than be unfaithful.

For my entire adult life, which she was part of, I always wanted her to be her best. I wanted her to experience what it's like to accomplish something for yourself. To be an individual. I wanted her to take, to be selfish. She wouldn't, or couldn't. I don't understand why. But I do think it impacted our relationship and I'm not entirely sure how. Even now, as we proceed toward divorce, I would give anything for her to just own her true self. I'm not sure if that's my codependent self talking or just the husband who wants to still love her. I want her to become her best, for HER.