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The WW and I have been in counseling for three months now. We started out with IC, then recently moved to IC and MC.

The counselors we see are a married couple, both very nice. My concern is there is no game plan. We go in they ask how we are doing and talk about what has happened since we last seen them. I just don't think we are getting anywhere.

I have talked to the WW about this, she doesn't see what I do.

My other concern is I probably have read to much on here and other forums. I know I haven't been the best husband "alcohol and verbally abusive" but her IC seems to shift the blame on me. Or maybe that is what my WW perspective is, from what her IC says.

WW says that this is all I am focused on, is her affair. It is very hard for me not to be.

I would love to hear from others who have gone through counseling and what I should expect.

Thanks in advance

Hi there...as the BS in our marriage, we made the mistake of seeing a MC together. She was worthless and we wasted months seeing her.

Now, we are both in IC..me for dealing with the trauma of what the affair did to me, H for dealing with the issues he has that led to his infidelity.

You have the right to feel what you do...and not be put down for it.

Maybe it would be a good idea to discuss with your own therapist about your drinking and how your wife felt verbally abused

Either way, that didn't make it ok for the cheating

I don't know your individual situation , but I know that us seeing our own IC has helped us both

If they aren't working for you cut them off and find another. It's your $'s.

They won't fix this anyway. You continue to live in limbo because you won't take the steps necessary to get out of it.

Essentially you are keeping yourself where she put you.

We started out with IC, then recently moved to IC and MC.

I think that seeing the same person/persons for IC and MC is a bad idea. I would discourage this.

My concern is there is no game plan.

This absolutely a legitimate concern. They should have a game plan. A strategy. They should be able to outline the therapy that you two are undertaking... where you are in the overall path... and what the next steps are going to be.

I have talked to the WW about this, she doesn't see what I do.

My other concern is I probably have read to much on here and other forums. I know I haven't been the best husband "alcohol and verbally abusive" but her IC seems to shift the blame on me. Or maybe that is what my WW perspective is, from what her IC says.

Woah! This is a bad bad sign.

The most important thing to learn, in my experience, is that the fault of the affair resides 100% on the wayward spouse. 100%. If you don't believe that, you will never heal. If she doesn't believe that, then she will never heal and she will likely cheat again. If your therapist (IC and MC) believes that... fire them IMMEDIATELY.

Beyond that, the paragraph quoted above is highly consistent with a toxic relationship in which you are the co-dependent and your spouse is a narcissist. Do you find yourself trying to please her, but never quite seem to get there? Does she always seem to shift blame for all problems onto you? Are you willing to accept the blame for problems (I am talking non-infidelity problems), even though... deep down... you know that it isn't your fault?

WW says that this is all I am focused on, is her affair. It is very hard for me not to be.

Yep, because she wants you to forget it ever happened... sweep it under the rug... and move on. This is a bad sign. She is not ready for reconciliation. My guess is that neither are you.

p.s. I have been there, done that. I did it awful. I had two years of depression and a suicide attempt. That is, do I as say... not as I did.

Your WW wants to focus on things other than her A because it’s part of the rationalization that M troubles caused her to cheat. That’s nonsense. You can work on your M issues once you’ve determined if she is actively working on her brokenness. You are concentrating on the A because it destroyed your trust. She violated her M vows. That’s a base issue that needs to be resolved, her brokenness, before you ever work on M issues like forgetting to take out the trash. If she does not see the distinction she will always try to justify cheating based on irrelevant M issues. Nothing in the M justifies cheating. Period. Good luck.

I am not in MC so I can’t offer much help with the specifics of that but 3 months in IC doesn’t seem that long to me in the grand scheme of things for you to not be still focused on her A and for her to really have come a long way in healing the brokenness that led to her A. So it would make sense that you don’t feel like you’re getting anywhere. I personally feel like I need much more time to heal from the trauma before even addressing the M.

barcher144 I agree with what you say. After what I conceder lingering for months I wrote out a game plan the other night. Part of which includes her and I read an article from the healing library every other night.

I have been working on alcohol abuse and verbal abuse. There have been some good books I have read that shed new light on what I have been doing wrong. I am not saying I have completely corrected them, just that I am working on it.

Now as for the toxic relation, that is possible. To me, it seems like she blames me for everything but If I call her on it she says she doesn't. Now, I am not the type to accept blame where it is not my fault and she knows that. But who knows, more thought and digging deeper will tell.

I personally feel that more IC is necessary for both of you before MC can be productive... right now, you're two broken people who need to focus on yourselves first... that doesn't mean putting off working on the M altogether, it just means giving each other some more time to work on yourselves... that way, when the two of you head back to MC, you'll each be healthier, and better prepared to take on the task of really looking into fixing your M... IMHO

I think MC can be effective even this early, if the MC does 2 things.

First, the MC needs to confront bullshit, yours and hers. Of course, cheating implies a lot more bullshit will come from her, so I'd expect her to be confronted a lot more than you are.

Second, a good MC helps translate between the 2 of you. For example, does your W's IC blame you, or is that just how your W hears it? My guess it's your W mishearing what the IC says. (Among other things, a good IC won't talk about you because s/he doesn't know you. Your W may talk about you, but a good IC will work to get your W to focus on herself.)

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I think it's great that you wrote a game plan. It doesn't need to be detailed, IMO. Also IMO, all you should need to do is tell your Cs your goals. That in itself will help the C.

You might want to ask how the C will help you achieve your goals. I would, because I have some therapy preferences - for example, I don't do homework.

I'll do my best to move stuff I've learned in therapy into normal life, but I am not a good candidate for doing homework assignments. But maybe you get a lot out of homework. Clients do better if they make preferences known, as well as goals, IMO.

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Are you abusing alcohol now? That needs to stop for you to be(come) a good partner. How are you treating your alcoholism (assuming I read you right)?

Are you verbally abusive when you're drunk? If you stay sober....

We have a number of members who post every year that they made it through yet another year of sobriety. I hope you join them.

But maybe I have misread your post and you already have gotten sober. That would be great.

But alcoholism isn't an excuse for cheating. It just makes being a good partner so much more difficult, if not impossible.

As others have mentioned, MC probably isn't the proper type of therapy right now. You each need to make some progress (healing from the trauma of betrayal for you and addressing her character flaws) before you can decide whether or not the marriage can be saved. In fact, I'm rather upset that MC's would even see you and take your money at this point in your situation.

There's an easy way to find out if alcohol is a problem for you. Quit drinking for 90 days and see how you do. If you can't, then AA would be a wonderful resource for you. I don't say that in a judgmental way, I say it the same way I'd tell a diabetic to quit sugar for 90 days. Alcoholism is a disease and you have no control over it or what it does to you if you have the disease. And there's only one way to find out if you have it.

Whether your marriage survives this or not, your life going forward will be 1000% better without alcohol.

sisoon, Abusing now, no. Do I want to slip off down that road, only on the crappy days. Can I easily go there, yep.

Now when drunk my toilet mouth will not stop flowing with things I will highly regret and not mean to say.

Sober, WW says I say things that are hurtful, so I am trying to watch that closely. But there are times when I absolutely have to express my feelings.

Like you the homework does not seem to get done. But I do try and include it in my daily life, that seems to be a big help.

KOBA

just passing on a perspective:

Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,

let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,

"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,

and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,

wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?

Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.

A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?

To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?

What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?

They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,

The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.

You don't fight them on this issue.

You agree with their feelings, they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead", you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them", you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.

Sorry I missed this, KOBA.

Now when drunk my toilet mouth will not stop flowing with things I will highly regret and not mean to say.

Sober, WW says I say things that are hurtful, so I am trying to watch that closely. But there are times when I absolutely have to express my feelings.

Excess drinking - which may be any drinking for you - is the enemy of recovery. To recover, you really need to stay in touch with your thoughts, feelings, words, and actions, and drugs get in the way.

And you can't R without recovery.

What hurtful things do you say when you're sober?

I think there are 2 main ways we express feelings. One way is to call people names and make threats. That's sort of standard for our society.

It's much more effective to say things like, 'I'm FURIOUS that you cheated!' That sentence eally expresses your feeling (fury) - and it's fine to shout that sort of sentence, if that's how you feel. (Of course, it's best to be several feet away and not moving towards your W when you say this sort of thing. Express the feelings. Don;t make threats.)

If you're doing the 'I'm furious/angry/sad ...' version, I think you're on track for recovering.

If you're calling your W names, I urge you as strongly as possible to try out the other way. Letting your W know how you feel is powerful and healing.

As for your W feeling hurt, she cheated. She betrayed herself and you. If her ap was married, she betrayed OBS. Hearing about that IS hurtful. It should hurt. Dealing with that is part of her healing.

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Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,

let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

Gently, if I had done that, the end result would have been very much diminished self-respect.

IMO, a BS rebuilds his self-respect by finding his courage, by realizing the A wasn't about him, by feeling the awful feelings and processing them out of his body, by figuring out what he wants and going for it.

Sure, that means letting your WS go if she wants to go. Begging - doing the 'pick me' dance - doesn't work, but usually the WS wants to stay. Usually the BS has a number of choices. Too often, 'letting them go' is 'shutting everything out' because the BS fears his pain.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Mmmm...this is pretty fuzzy. If it means 'let the person go in the hope reverse psychology will bring her back,' it's ...gently, now... wrong.

If it means 'let go of the outcome,' I agree.

To heal you need to make healing your goal. Healing has to take hold before one can freely choose between D & R. If you don't heal, you'll feel lousy whether you D or R. In fact, if you don;t heal,you might make the wrong choice.

So make healing your goal. D/R will follow from that.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:48 AM, January 13th (Sunday)]

sisoon, I would really have to think about what I say soberly that offends her. I think she may just take it as offending. Last few weeks I have been expressing how I feel, and not attacking.

I was given a couple of books to read and they seem to be really helpful, for both of us. Healing the Shame that Binds You by Jay Bradshaw and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr, Robert Glover.

Now I do believe our counselors may not be the right fit for us. Hers seems to be stuck on verbal abuse. She is not addressing WW other issues.

My IC seems to believe in an inner peace by just letting it all go, just forgive and trust again. Now me, I need a reason to trust again something solid. They also dont agree with me on the 100% open and honest. They say things like what good will it do to answer my questions, it will only hurt me more. I expressed to them that it puts some of the mind movies to rest, the constant racing in my mind.

The main question I have is for others that have gone through counseling. What should I expect and what should the counselor be doing?

[This message edited by KOBA at 6:16 PM, January 13th (Sunday)]

Oh, man! Your ICs sound like they would be useles at best for anyone!

I recommend reading and giving this link to your IC: https://dearpeggy.com/free-pdfs/help-for-therapists.pdf. It's free, and the mods have OKed my citing this website. It's point is that it looks like the more an A is discussed, the better the outcome.

I agree that your healing involves letting go of the feelings of anger, grief, fear, and shame, but that takes time and effort. Still, remember or accept that you can hold your W to account even if you process your feelings out of your body - in fact, it's easier to hold her to account if your feelings don't get in the way. That may sound counter-intuitive, but I think it's true.

I can not understand trusting your W as a good partner unless she earns that trust. IME, that takes thousands of trust-building actions, unless ...

I often thought in the early days that I did come to trust my W quickly in one sense. That is, I trusted that every word that came out of her mouth and every action had multiple possible meanings and that I could not know which meaning a word/action had until I had a lot more evidence. Alas, that's not the trust that is part of a happy LT relationship.