SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Back from the week end trip

But For The Grace, I want to answer your recent post. Will do so when I get more time. Thanks for clearing up what i asked.

What makes a safe spouse? Other than time and consistent effort. I suppose she's acting like a safe spouse. But is she? only time will tell.

This was posted by a guy on JFO whose wife is also on here is Wayward and who was 100% correct on all his gut feelings. I have the same question.

i thought the basics were

(1) NC total- I got that

(2) Transparency total- I got that too

(3) Commitment Total- this is the tricky one. It seems the only acceptable way to many is to go to IC and start digging to her childhood. so far, I am not buying that. My gut tells me I have in my mind a correct narrative of how she got there which I will expound on when i get time to think straight

I decided NOT to change her phone. Creates a lot of people to notify and give a story too, there have been no breaches, i have a VAR and I am having her take a polygraph. doing this is just motion for the sake of motion.

The polygraph is set for a week from Friday. of course she does not know that yet.

Our week end was nice but hectic. A lot of running around and it is a joy to watch your daughter play so well in the first game you have seen her play in college.

She does not travel again for a few weeks and I will travel before she does. And no, I am not concerned that she will sneak some OM into my house or cheat when I am gone so I am not wiring up the house.

BR:

Thanks for the update. It’s neat to be able to watch our kids excel at things. My dd ( who will turn 40 next year. Yikes, where did the time go!) was also a collegiate athlete. We so enjoyed watching her challenge herself to be the best she could be! Very rewarding. Wins and losses were secondary.

You listed some things that make a safe spouse. You mention “commitment”, and I understand your reluctance to have her go through IC. It is hard to get a handle on commitment. One thing that gets mentioned often for a remorseful spouse is “empathy”. Does your WW spend more of her energy focusing on her own guilt and shame, or is she able to focus on how this has affected you and your pain and emotional loss. Is she defensive or is she able to see through her own guilt and be sensitive to places and things that trigger you. I think this takes time for a WS to get there. But to me, a truly empathetic spouse is much more likely to be committed to your M. Just a thought.

Keep on, keepin on. You are on a good path to get out of infidelity. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 10:41 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

But For The Grace

I just wanted to respond to some of your points in your last post to me. First, I believe you have read many more threads than me and are more experienced than me in interpreting this shit we are involved in here.

First, I want to address the football thing. Plenty of guys in college get laid more than football players. Yes, I was part of the jock culture and yes there were always girls available, a lot of them who did not give a shit about doing anything but running back to the sorority house and being what they perceived as really cool. But my wife was also part of this culture, and what you said about her sex life being pretty vanilla was not exactly correct. She was not exactly SNOW WHITE if you get what I mean. She was not hard to get into bed for me or anyone else who she dated.

Sorry if it bothers some that I am not humiliated. I would probably be if she was fucking my neighbor, my friends, or worse my relatives, or someone she or I worked with and both knew. I would probably be humiliated if she was bring some guy into my home or fucking him in my car that I had to drive. And I would probably be humiliated if she was in some sort of fog and in “love” with an OM. Or if she was sending videos and pictures and upstairs doing it while I was downstairs.

These two dopes. One thing I learned from sports is that no matter how big you are, how fast you are, or how good you are there is someone out there better. A lot of guys get this crazy fear about dick size and all the other stuff. Well, I am 6'7” ,260-270 pounds, size 19 shoe, and my hands, feet, and body parts are most likely bigger than the majority of folks walking around on two legs. And I have been in enough locker rooms to know that I was not exactly short changed. So sorry, I am pissed at how stupid she was more than humiliated, and I am going to give my version on the WHY in my opinion in a separate post.

You are absolutely correct about all of us being in infidelity hotbed situations at work. The geniuses in HR and consulting have provided us with “team bonding” getaways that are co ed that would make Mrs. Glass roll over in her grave. Send men and women away from the spouses to a hotel, provide them with a shitload of free time to drink and get all dressed up to the nines, and you know that at every one of these someone winds up cheating in some way. We both have to attend these things, and if I am correct the polygraph will show she has not done this before, especially at work.

I DO believe this was a mid life crisis thing, but she does not have a wrinkly face. When I post my thoughts on why she crossed the line in this situation I hope it will be explained better. But everyday she interacts with a lot more eligible guys than these two runner bozos.

You are all correct when you say you have to make the choice if you want a wife with a broken moral compass. That is a choice we all have to make and for some there is no grey area. I get that. I have no intention of playing CIA cop for years, and I have no intention of imprisoning her in the house. She has been hit on many many times by other parents at sports events, coaches, neighbors, and at nights out with friends for years and years.

Only time will tell. I may wind up like Waited Way Too Long and decide I need to divorce. Me, nor anyone else here can predict that. She so far has done the right things, a lot without prodding of any kind from me.

She has done the majority of the raising of four girls that have with her guidance made it possible to not yet have had to make a tuition payment to college for any of them. I have chosen to give her a chance.

A week from tomorrow will be a big deal. I have to formulate what I am going to do either way.

If she doesn’t use this as an opportunity to figure out Who She Is As A Human Being, she will have missed a golden chance to become a truly grounded and truthful person, and you will have missed the chance to have that for a wife. What happened is many things, including being a gift. Don’t let her just cram the genie back in the bottle.

House of Plane, you are right. I have no intention of just moving on as if nothing ever happened, but I profoundly believe that for every WHY I have seen here the statement can be made, even on CSA where we know a lot of women become unfaithful or sex workers to have power over men that they were helpless with before, that most do not.

It still all boils down to a selfish act, exciting and new, and 99% do not think they will get caught. So even after you know the why it does not change what happened. I have a very strong opinion, with all the knowledge and factual documentation that was voluntarily turned over to me, on why this happened in this perfect storm situation. And if she passes the polygraph test I will feel even more strongly that I am correct.

I do not believe that some shrink , who may very well have told her not to tell me everything, will divulge some why that makes it all go away like a bolt of lightning.

I have not been here that long but already have read where the therapist advises exactly the OPPOSITE of what the advice is here.

what you said about her sex life being pretty vanilla was not exactly correct. She was not exactly SNOW WHITE if you get what I mean. She was not hard to get into bed for me or anyone else who she dated.

What I was getting to with that comment was that I understand, from your posts, that this does not involve a circumstance where you get the occasional grudging "just lay still" at home but she did the full Kama Sutra 3 times a night with her APs. Rather, she participated in the usual menu of hetero sex stuff with you and with the APs.

I have not been here that long but already have read where the therapist advises exactly the OPPOSITE

A lot of MC's are rugsweepers. If you don't address or fix the root problem it doesn't resolve anything. There is no guarantee of not getting a repeat but if you delve deeper you probably have a better chance of success.

[This message edited by Marz at 4:02 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]

BFG

What I was getting to with that comment was that I understand, from your posts, that this does not involve a circumstance where you get the occasional grudging "just lay still" at home but she did the full Kama Sutra 3 times a night with her APs. Rather, she participated in the usual menu of hetero sex stuff with you and with the APs.

Not exactly

I got the entire “usual” menu. They got a limited version .

And I got it with the same regularity

BR Like so many others here your wife only stopped because she got caught, obviously you must have asked yourself how long it would have continued and would there have been more Men.

Have you asked her and what did she reply?

It seems the only acceptable way to many is to go to IC and start digging to her childhood.

Maybe not....

What I wanted from my W was IC with a goal of changing from cheater to good partner.

Now, that got into childhood trauma, but only as a means to an end, the 'end' being 'change'.

It's very difficult for anyone to change anything big on his/her own. A good IC is an outside observer who can and will identify patterns that a person simply can't see in him/herself. And a good IC will help guide a person in making changes.

I believe IC is essential for virtually all WSes, because I believe WSes need help in changing. I also believe starting IC without wanting to change is like to be a waste of time, effort, and money.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:01 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]

BR, I think you have the right approach to all of this. I know you likely sound calmer than you probably are, but you have a plan that works for you.

I think all former D1 offensive lineman are very bright people who often think of the bigger picture versus just themselves. We aren't in it for the glory. We already know how important we are to the rest of the team. We'll leave the glory for the QBs.

Here is my .02. Your wife got involved with someone who "normalized" her shitty behavior. Her GF made it seem like everything would be just fine and make her happy somehow at exactly the wrong time. (Empty nest, MLC, etc.) She made the worst decision possible at the worst possible time. You can call it a perfect storm and still place 100% of the responsibility on her. You can understand it without condoning it. I understand that 100%.

However the circumstances aren't really important for you because it doesn't change the fact that she betrayed you. For her the reasons can help her figure why she made choices that are not line with her values. Why she suddenly thought it was ok. For her, that is important if she ever wants to be the best wife that she can be. She needs to watch film of her life to determine what not to do next time.

She thought it was good and harmless fun . . .until it wasn't. She has not begun to feel the full consequences of her choices. Neither have you. Sorry, it is true. 2-5 years in often cited as the time it takes to heal from infidelity. Going by my own experience that is about right.

I have to reiterate something I heard. Your W is in crisis mode and likely will do anything that you ask for her. For right now, that is good. What happens when she runs out of scripted plays and has to improvise ? KWIM ?

Right now she is compliant. She is so thankful that she got to come home that she will go over the top. At some point she will grow tired of that. She will resent the pressure that comes with being a perfect wife. BTW she put that burden on herself without any help from you.

My W often told me that while it was hard when I was mean to her it was a thousands times worse when I was nice to her. She knew it was in no way deserved. It inspired her to be a better person. She couldn't conceive of someone so traumatized that could still find kindness for her. It encouraged her to be a better wife, mother and human being. She complied for a long time and resented me for it. Full disclosure, it was, and still is, her problem not mine.

I get that you are only a month out and right now you gotta do what you gotta do. Your a plan guy and that will serve you very well in whatever path you ultimately choose.

You have to trust me on this . . .it does get better. You have no idea the opportunity you have to make your life into whatever you want it to be.

FWIW I am 8 years out from Dday. I am fully aware that reconciling with my W is a risk, but you know what ? It is a risk I am 100% ok with because I know I will be fine either way. I still remember my Ws A, but I have to also remember all that I have learned along the way. My W continued her journey and still willing accepts consequences of her choices made long ago. Me ? I am free from it. It was never about me and therefore I don't have to fix it.

This is like a coming back from a really bad injury. You have to do the rehab like you mean it. No shortcuts. You get through this not around it.

welcome to the last club you'd ever thought you'd have to join

The impression I've gotten from this thread...

Your wife cheated for variety, because she could, because she wanted to, because she was selfish, and because she thought she could get away with it.

Some are telling you you will never feel safe with a wife who cheats for those reasons.

Hmm. There are an awful lot of betrayed wives here, who are reconciling with their husbands who cheated for the exact same reasons as your wife.

It's not typical that a woman cheats for those reasons. But there is no reason you can't give your wife a chance, and successfully reconcile. Many of us women have done just that.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:07 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]

The other thing an IC does that you don't have now. The IC becomes her journal. They would have tried to stop her while she was being stupid.

The biggest thing she can do is start to get vulnerable with you again.

Why is her journal full of crap she isn't sharing with you?

She needs to pull down all her walls. She isn't going to do that with you. You hold too much risk to be vulnerable with. That is what the IC does. They become a sounding board. They do tell the WS things to protect themselves even from the BS, but sooner or later the WS has to push that advice aside and become an open, unafraid person with their spouse.

Please address this. It is the real reason for the IC. Not an observer, more a person over a sheet of paper she can twist and manipulate. The IC should be Jiminy Cricket.

Sorry but IMHO when it comes to infidelity, the "mid life crisis" and "perfect storm" reasons/excuses are nothing but BULLSHIT, millions of other people have "mid life" problems and "perfect storm" scenarios yet they don't cheat, to me people cheat simply because they want to and DECIDE to do it, period. Cheating is a DECISION, a CHOICE she was making every time until caught, she's a proven cheater and a liar, dig deeper, so if she passes the poly (and I hope she does pass it with flying colors) hopefully she will work on herself so next time there's another "crisis" or "perfect storm" she makes a different decision/choice and comes to you instead.

House of Plane, you are right. I have no intention of just moving on as if nothing ever happened, but I profoundly believe that for every WHY I have seen here...

This is maybe a subtle point, but I am actually not recommending she go down the rathole of figuring out her ‘why’. I agree with what you said about the why’s.

It is also pretty easy to just decide not to do that again, and get to living as before. She made it through the first part of her life without it happening, she should be able to finish it out too. Genie goes back in the bottle. No more cheating ever. Whew, glad that is in the rear view mirror!

But that would be staying in the shallow end of the personal growth pool, so to speak. An opportunity missed.

I’m also not suggesting she see a shrink, counselor, etc. More, it is just about realizing that there is a lot about herself that she doesn’t actually know, just assumes she knows. What she thought she knew was wrong. It wasn’t the truth of things. She could maybe actually open her eyes and get some intellectual curiosity about what the truth is. We walk through life believing tons of truths that are actually just assumptions and beliefs.

Here’s the bottom line, I guess, after thinking about what I was trying to say. Before the A she was living a life with a facade. The exterior didn’t match the interior, and so she was juggling two lives. The A was the crack in the facade. She can close it back up, or she can actually destroy it and live as one, whole person. That’s the opportunity.

You’ve got a great plan, full speed ahead!

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 6:19 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]

Glad you had a good trip BR. Sounds like your kids didn't notice anything off between you two thats a good sign! When are you going to let your wife know there is a poly coming?

As for the rest much of this thread I find perplexing, some seem desperate to see a pound of flesh to be taken or for a new betrayal to occur to prove all cheaters are the same with no exceptions.

Some seem to need to see Mrs BR have some sort breakdown or realization that she is broken and trash who needs years of therapy to straighten her out and BR to feel emasculated. I get it, BR does too it seems but why not wait to see what the poly says and if there have been lies or further contact or whatever?

In my (likely unwanted) opinion none of this is gonna happen or is necessary and BR has no reason to feel crippled by mind movies and all the rest. He knows what happened and isnt phased.

All of the information is laid out clearly in this thread. Wife started spending several days and nights a month (or whatever) with a group of extremely promiscuous younger and poly / open relationship cheaters all within a sexually charged atmosphere with gallons of alchohol on tap and available hotel rooms.

I bet a quarter of the runners there are fucking cheaters.

Wife despite being warned that she should have 'the talk' with BR knew how that would have ended (DIVORCE) and decided she could have occasional exciting NSA fun with a couple of scumbags in the belief what BR doesn't know cannot hurt him. BR never checked up on her at these runs, she kept contact limited to some emails, and it seems like noone else knew outside of the cheat group so she thought she was free and clear. If no STDs and noone tipped off BR then she was bulletproof ...

She was wrong. She got busted pretty quickly and has done everything right since ... I don't see anything she could have done better or how therapy or counselling could help because both she and BR know why she did it and she seems extremely grateful to have this second chance. She was selfish and sneaky and had her head turned, a bad therapist could turn this reconcillation into a clusterfuck ... she isnt some depressed, bipolar, angry or narcissistic addict or anything like that. She had a choice 1- terminate her involvement with the friendgroup and GTFO of there 2 - be selfish and grasp the opportunity to be more like them, I imagine the guys put quite a few thoughts into her head

In a few months or years or whatever could she suddenly tire of making amends or she could stay the course. BR could decide trust isnt coming back enough ... I guess everytone will know in 2020-2023 but hopefully I wont still be lurking around SI getting myself angry. I am hoping this turns into a successful R

Once again good luck BR. Your plan seems to be working, your wife seems to my eyes to be doing everything you need and she needs. I am sure some hurdles will come but I am sure you both have the fortitude and enough love to overcome them.

And if you find out she is a serial cheater your whole marriage I will never give advice again to anyone about anything

[This message edited by LemonCurd at 5:15 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]

BR,

The one thing I disagree with you at this point is the notion of a "perfect storm."

You acknowledge that the running buddies are nothing special, the open marriage friend is not a monster, there were other women in the "pack" that presumably didn't get caught up in all of this. Yet your WW somehow did.

The details of your WW's A are different. Some are better, some are honestly worse. But in kind, I really don't think there's any difference between her and some 40 something woman who falls for words and I Love Yous from some SA at the office. Everyone's unique, we all have unique issues. But in kind there is no difference to me. The A kind of takes away the special for me. Maybe you are trying to hold on to that for yourself.

I guess I would also ask what do you think your WW would do had the tables been turned. Had you had 7 sexual encounters with 2 different women, lining up the second after the first caused too much trouble. Getting caught heading for another rendezvous. What would the consequences be that you would expect, what would you think you would have to go through to merit being welcomed back into the marriage?

Brother BR,

Has there been any more movement regarding the poly?

How did it go?

I have kept up in your posts and you have made your stance on her extra running activities quite clear.

Is she still fully supportive to you or do you feel she just going through the motions? Some posters state the latter.

May l ask if she does not pass the polygraph or is too inconclusive what is your course of action?

Fo you DDs sake I hope this has been nipped in the bud with just the two POS and with support you can R if that is what you want.

[This message edited by Buffer at 6:08 AM, October 4th (Friday)]

sorry to t/j

Sorry but IMHO when it comes to infidelity, the "mid life crisis" and "perfect storm" reasons/excuses are nothing but BULLSHIT,

If that was directed at me you will notice I did not call them excuses. I said:

You can call it a perfect storm and still place 100% of the responsibility on her. You can understand it without condoning it.

However the circumstances aren't really important for you because it doesn't change the fact that she betrayed you.

end t/j

I bet a quarter of the runners there are fucking cheaters

If they are it would line up with the general population. According to the last General Survey (I think) something less than 25% of men and 20% of women commit adultery. It's been said that there are some occupations/careers that seem to spawn more cheaters but this doesn't seem any different than the whole population.

I have to reiterate something I heard. Your W is in crisis mode and likely will do anything that you ask for her. For right now, that is good. What happens when she runs out of scripted plays and has to improvise ? KWIM ?

This is the concern. Is this damage control or the real thing?

She was wrong. She got busted pretty quickly and has done everything right since ... I don't see anything she could have done better

Doing everything right can be part of damage control. This just happened. The real test is with time. Will it stick? Will it get too tough to white knuckle?

It's really early in the continuum, BeyondRage. IMO there hasn't been enough time to determine what's real and what's forced yet. I can't remember if your WW has read the "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". Some have read that and followed the script. Some have found SI and found out what to say and what to do.

The real test is time. I think it's hard to fake it very long. There has to be continuous and consistent change in behavior. Steps backward can happen but need to be quickly corrected. It takes a long time.

t/j: LemonCurd, you haven't been here long and you're offside by criticizing members who take time to respond to those who come here hurting and wanting input. If you take the time to read a lot of postings you might see that even when there are differences in the story there are many similarities. That's where Cheater 101 comes from and terms like cheater speak. Those posting want the betrayed to get out of adultery. They want to help the betrayed to not make the mistakes they, like I, made. End t/j.

Best of luck going forward, BeyondRage. Sorry to you about the t/j.

I’m a damn walking mid-life crisis and I don’t cheat, so don’t ever accept that as an excuse.

Infidelity is ALWAYS a character issue.