SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Here's my thought on this - and it's going to be unpopular, so take it for what it's worth. This is a rather BIG 2 X 4 FYI and I have not read all the posts on this so my apologies if its been said before and it feels like I am just beating you up.

None of this excuses the cheating - none of it BTW - but since you are posting this in R, I am assuming you are not quite ready to give up or are at least considering something else. As you well know, you cannot change someone else, but you can do some work on yourself. I think I am in the minority of people on this forum who advocate for responsibility for your own actions, especially in the long haul of R. So here goes...

I get the anger. I get the loss of attraction. Hell, I even get the hatred. There were several paragraphs that I could have written myself. For the most part, I went the opposite way - I didn't verbalize in a negative way my issues/thoughts nearly as much as you did (in fact, I'm guessing I didn't very often compared to most people as I see it as not being constructive) and oftentimes didn't talk about them at all because I found I could not be constructive. That was my mistake.

Yours is the opposite. You state the following occurred after 4 years of R:

I still harbored anger, I've still been verbally abusive, told him he's not attractive, made fun of his appearance, even pointed out specific things about him that turned me off, made fun of his intelligence, told him I was losing feelings for him, told him I wouldn't re-marry him if I had a chance to do life over.

I got annoyed with him and gave him attitude if he was sick or under the weather, like I was literally mean to him when he was sick. I told him that I didn't love him the same, that I loved him like a friend, I even put us on pause for a while and said we should be just friends, I said we should separate, he should move out, but we didn't have the financial means.

I stopped saying I love you to him, even as a front for the kids.

He took the verbal abuse I threw at him constantly for YEARS...

The thing is, I said all this without meaning it, I said it to hear him fight for me every time, I said it to see him lower his head in pain, I said it to have power and control knowing that I could treat him how ever I wanted since he had planted this bomb in our marriage. I said it to instill the fear/shame in him that he would end up like his father, went through life alone in a crappy apartment, as a part time dad, who he always said he didn't want to end up like.

In a nutshell, after 4 years of attempting to R, you are hurt, angry, and abusive towards your WH. You have made fun of his appearance, been irritated with him when he feels bad, shamed him and compared him to someone he does not want to emulate, made fun of his intelligence, and basically took opportunities to kick him when he is down. While NOTHING excuses your WH doing what he did (and doing it again), nothing excuses your admitted abuse either. If you attempt to R, it means that BOTH of you have to find a way to make it work - your WH cannot be your punching bag for eternity because of what he did to you. That's not R - that's jail.

It's TOTALLY OKAY to be done after what he did and has done again. It is. Absolutely. 100%. But if you want to try to R then you will have to do some work too. A friend of mine who cheated on her H said that her BH did similar things to her for 2 years afterwards, and it got to the point where she felt hated, despised, and worthless - and that she deserved all of it for eternity because of what she had done to him. That simply is not true - while she deserved to do the work she did not "owe" it to her BH to be mentally abused for eternity. What she did was terrible - horrible - we all know it - but it was not worthy of mental torment for eternity under the guise of attempting to reconcile. That's not a marriage. Their MC finally told her BH that if he wanted to continue the abuse, if forgiveness was not something he wanted to work towards in his heart, that he had to let it end because his behavior was not acceptable and was not indicative of a desire to actually work things out. It sounds like your counselor gave you the same advice. Take it regardless of where you end up.

Your WH has horrible boundaries, and allegedly seeks out the attention of others because and somehow justifies it because he is not getting it from you. He doesn't want to leave you yet he wants attention that he has not been able to get from you - that you admit to purposefully withholding, sometimes WITH the intent to hurt. He needs to work on his boundaries, and figure out that in life you cannot always get what you want but you can always have your personal integrity in tact. That's all on him, and it's completely up to you to decide if you want to see if he can do the work and really GET IT. You need to do the same.

I'm sorry for your pain - I really am, but your path to R has been mired not only by him but by your behavior as well. You have to figure out a way to FORGIVE or whatever you want to call it - let go of the anger as it's eating you alive. If you have to divorce because you simply cannot figure out how to get back to not feeling anger and disgust and everything else, so be it - you do NOT owe him the rest of your life, but he does not owe you his either.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 2:35 PM, September 10th (Tuesday)]

I'm in the car and it's hard to post a lot from my phone but...

but since you are posting this in R, I am assuming you are not quite ready to give up

Correct.

You state the following occurred after 4 years of R

All of that occured during the 4 years of attempted R. It's all bad behavior on my part but I didn't dump all of it on him at once, this has been over the course of 4 years, with some decent times sprinkled in there, up until this last year which has been pretty horrible and I shut down completely and put my walls up completely, I just wanted to be numb.

It's TOTALLY OKAY to be done after what he did and has done again. It is. Absolutely. 100%.

I don't WANT to be done, that's the problem. I also feel shitty for not wanting to walk away after threatening that if it ever happened again I'd be gone.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 5:48 PM, September 10th (Tuesday)]

H is starting the audio book 'Not Just Friends' today. We are going to look for a MC and also an IC for each of us. I've looked into a few books recommended here but none were available at my library, so I'll have to wait until they're checked back in.

We got along for a few days after d-day 2, and then argued a few days because I was hurt again, I am desperately trying not to go down that dark path of anger again. We have realized we can't fix this on our own, we NEED MC this time.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 8:25 PM, September 10th (Tuesday)]

All of that occurred during the 4 years of attempted R. It's all bad behavior on my part but I didn't dump all of it on him at once, this has been over the course of 4 years, with some decent times sprinkled in there, up until this last year which has been pretty horrible and I shut down completely and put my walls up completely, I just wanted to be numb.

I grasped all of that - but honestly, it doesn't make it any better. It seems to me like you need to do some soul searching (and work with an IC maybe if that's something you can go back to and you think that will help you make your decision) to determine if you are capable of working towards R in a healthy way. You simply cannot treat someone with such DISDAIN (even if it is intermittent) and expect it to work out, regardless of infidelity. You may have to accept that this is a dealbreaker for you as you simply cannot handle it. I would suggest that you can and that you need to make some deeper digs into yourself (much like the advice given to WS) to figure out why you are reacting the way that you do and how to make a change...for YOU, as what you do know is it's not working as it is.

Again (said as gently as possible), you are making justifications for things that cannot be justified. Intermittent abusive behavior is still abuse. This isn't a one time "fly off the handle" and said "fuck you - I hate you for doing this to me" or whatever. What you described is a pattern and practice of belittling, judging, and purposeful emotional thrashings. You don't want to be the person who gets walked all over, but you don't want to be the person who does this to someone else either.

You've got to work this out with yourself first and foremost and find a way to let go of the anger...and figure out if you are really able to move towards forgiveness and if so, find a better way to move forward.

I also feel shitty for not wanting to walk away after threatening that if it ever happened again I'd be gone.

Oh I can RELATE to this! After d-day 2 and a year of false R, the fact that I was willing to even speak to my WH made me sick to my stomach...about ME! The fact that I even allow him in my life now on any level feels like a personal betrayal and at the same time I do miss the guy I used to love. It's horrible. I get it.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 9:20 AM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

Thank you for your input. I really do appreciate everyone's advice and feedback, I'm not looking to be coddled, I just also don't want to be told that I'm the most hateful person on the planet and that we have no hope.

I am not trying to justify my actions, I have realized that I've been dealing with this wrong and not coping AT ALL. I was diagnosed with adjustment disorder (along with PTSD, anxiety and situational depression) during my previous IC sessions which means I have a harder time than the average person with even small changes, so change like this is almost (but not totally) impossible for me to process and accept.

I wouldn't have posted so open and honestly about my own behavior if I wasn't reaching out for help, so for everyone calling me out, I'm not mad, I needed to hear it, just in a constructive way.

Hell, part of me feels like I can't even consider this a real "D-Day" because he frustratedly asked for a divorce a week or 2 before she sent him that first email that would eventually cross boundaries. I feel like he only "took it back" because I was visibly upset and he didn't want to see me upset.

I guess I played my part in it all over the years, and I've NEVER been one to blame myself for his infidelity, not even partially (still not actually blaming myself).

As fucked up as it sounds though, it's almost as if I want people to tell me what a POS I've been, and that he wouldn't have accepted the first teeny scrap of attention that was shown to him, if I hadn't been acting this way for 4 years, while he's been trying to give me everything I needed.

My IC had warned me and I didn't listen then.

He was begging me, verbally and by his actions (doing nice, thoughtful things for me, trying to make my life easier, etc), to love him again, he was telling me he wanted me and only me, and I couldn't get past my anger and inability to feel vulnerable with him. Again, doesn't excuse his cheating at all, I will never take the blame for it.

I am going to look into IC for myself today, it's very overwhelming to me to try and find one that will accept our insurance, and I'm hoping to find one that does EMDR, but we can't afford to pay out-of-pocket.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 11:24 AM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

I am going to look into IC for myself today, it's very overwhelming to me to try and find one that will accept our insurance, and I'm hoping to find one that does EMDR, but we can't afford to pay out-of-pocket.

I think this is the best thing you can do for you right now. Perhaps take a "break" from trying to R. Tell your WS that you realize you have issues and you want to address them and that simultaneously he needs to get back to work on himself as his behavior is also not acceptable. Give yourself a time limit to wait, work on yourselves, and see if at the end of that time you feel like going forward or not or giving it more time. Take the PRESSURE off.

I think part of the lashing out is not dealing with your inner feelings. If I lash out I feel better momentarily, but nothing is really resolved in the long run.

As fucked up as it sounds though, it's almost as if I want people to tell me what a POS I've been, and that he wouldn't have accepted the first teeny scrap of attention that was shown to him, if I hadn't been acting this way for 4 years, while he's been trying to give me everything I needed.

I'm not going to say that about you. What I will say about your WS is that maybe he wouldn't have considered the first teeny scrap of attention someone gave him if not for the situation at home - but again, his PROCESS, his BOUNDARIES (and what sounds to me like a people-pleasing attitude) puts him in a position where he makes CHOICES that he knows are wrong - for everyone - and the fact is that he DID accept that attention instead of making 1000 other different choices about how to handle both the attention and the situation at home. That's ALL 100% on him.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 12:53 PM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

Perhaps take a "break" from trying to R.

Take the PRESSURE off.

We actually tried this a year or so ago, and I feel like it took too much pressure off. I was free to act like we weren't married, I was free to ignore him without the guilty feeling that came with it, I was free to act like we were room mates and I felt no pressure to acknowledge him at all really. It actually may have been part of why this last year has been so bad, I got used to him being there but I didn't bother to interact with him, he was another set of hands, and a breadwinner, but otherwise he was just... there.

We have an intake appointment with IC/MC tonight, she will rotate seeing us separately each week and then together the 3rd week. She has AMAZING reviews on a few websites, and on Google search, so I'm nervous but kind of excited to get it all out.

One review said they thought the marriage was beyond help and even said he had cheated, and that she saved them.

I couldn't believe she had an opening, so we will see how that goes.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 3:41 PM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

Ugh. Sorry you’re here, again. Sending love and light.

Work on you right now... one day at a time. It’s a complicated situation.

I want to add this piece though... as someone who has moved a lot, and then moved back to my home state later... it’s different when you come back. It’s not always as good as you remembered. It does become a grass is greener on the other side kinda thing.

I hope you find the strength you need to guide you back to sun shiny days.

So I read this earlier and wanted to take a bit to digest and think a little before posting.

I also went back and read your profile again, I think sometimes we all tend to give pat answers and I really wanted to go back and just read a bit.

So from your original profile your H cheated for 7 years anonymously on Craigslist. You caught him, he immediately stopped and went into IC. You feel he has done everything. Is that correct? You caught him, he “stopped” and seemed to be the poster child for R.

Yet your anger continued.

You went to IC and then you stopped and did not go back again, maybe you were tired? Maybe you went to someone who you felt you had gotten as much as you could? Did you feel you had dug into what you needed to heal?

You also have all apps and can monitor him any time you want, is that correct?

I just have to ask, have you ever taken a break? From watching and monitoring him? And I don’t say that as something you have done wrong, I say that as someone who feels you still have a TON that has not been resolved with all of this.... a TON.

In my opinion only, there is more to this, lots more that you need to dig into.

I feel your anger is at yourself, I think that him cheating for 7 yrs ANONYMOUSLY is something that you just have not been able to forgive.... deep down inside.

I think that YOU think he is still a catch, that you feel you are not good enough somehow and that he is the prize and you are not.

I do not think you are punishing him so much as you are angry at yourself that you have stayed.

I could be wrong. So forgive me.

I agree with others that no matter how you have been treating him, his go to thing is to “cheat”. He has no other coping mechanism it seems. He can’t talk to you, he can’t say he wants a divorce, except for just recently... and I don’t care if you FEEL you can monitor him, there are always ways to hide things. Always. This seems too convenient that right after he said he “had enough and wanted to D” that he all of a sudden had someone he was getting his “validation” from.

Sorry, but with everything that we all hear on this site, this one thing “I needed the attention cuz you would not give it to me” is the ultimate abuse sword that a WS will lie on. And he seems to wield that one quite easily again when needed.

7 yrs is a long time. I think you just don’t have all the answers, and you may never have them. He may just be this way. And you know it. You know that you will always live with someone who will pull this card when it gets tough. You want more. But you won’t leave him.

I truly hope that IC works for you and I know this is the R forum and you may wish to R still. However I would for sure be digging into your own whys of staying. This is not said with anything but much sadness as there are many BS’s who stay and just cannot seem to figure out their own “whys” and their own unhappiness. I truly do wish for you that you dig and dig deep into your true feelings. Cuz whether you stay with your H or you move on, you will still take this with you. Take care of yourself and put yourself first, stop worrying about him or what he is doing or not doing. Release it and just see what it is that you truly want. A good IC will help you with that.

The forum ate my post so I'm going to try to retype it in sections.

You caught him, he immediately stopped and went into IC. You feel he has done everything. Is that correct? You caught him, he “stopped” and seemed to be the poster child for R.

Yet your anger continued.

Yes, my anger would go away and come back intermittently, mostly when the mind movies would come back. I admit I never dealt with my PTSD, I never worked through it, I never processed things in a healthy way. That's on me.

You went to IC and then you stopped and did not go back again, maybe you were tired? Maybe you went to someone who you felt you had gotten as much as you could? Did you feel you had dug into what you needed to heal?

My experience with ICs wasn't great. We have never had great insurance before this so it was always some type of free clinic or outreach type program where the ICs were likely not super dedicated.

The first one I saw pretty much skipped over the whole infidelity thing and just pestered me to go to meetup.com meetings to overcome social anxiety. It was like that was what she would rather work on instead. I left that one.

The second one I had, literally told me that society is attacking marriage and it's so easy now to cheat that it's just going to happen at some point to almost everyone. She also told me I (and I quote) "needed to be the big juicy burger", because then he wouldn't go looking for it elsewhere.

The last one who actually gave me some sound advice, telling me I'd drive him away with my actions, yes I left and didn't go back right away. I should clarify, I did go back a bit later but she told me she was moving out of state to open her own practice. She left, I never went back to IC again.

You also have all apps and can monitor him any time you want, is that correct?

I just have to ask, have you ever taken a break? From watching and monitoring him?

Believe me when I say, I did NOT spend 4 years monitoring him. He felt safe to me after a point.

I had the option to look if I wanted to or needed to, he never asked to remove the monitoring apps, but I was so past monitoring him after the 1st year.

I mostly deleted the emails and texts I'd get from the monitoring app because they'd alert me with random things that wouldn't be anything suspicious, so it got to the point where I'd get an alert text and literally just delete it without even looking at it, the alerts got to be more of an annoyance than anything and I even shut off some keywords to tone down the alerts.

I feel your anger is at yourself, I think that him cheating for 7 yrs ANONYMOUSLY is something that you just have not been able to forgive.... deep down inside.

This may be absolutely true. Not arguing you there.

I think that YOU think he is still a catch, that you feel you are not good enough somehow and that he is the prize and you are not.

This one is way off. I almost always feel I'm better than him, and that I'm MORE than "good enough" for him. That's probably not a healthy mindset either, but it is what it is.

I do not think you are punishing him so much as you are angry at yourself that you have stayed.

This could be absolutely true.

He has no other coping mechanism it seems. He can’t talk to you, he can’t say he wants a divorce, except for just recently.

I'm not sure if you had read any of my other replies in this thread, I know it's getting long and likely confusing to keep up with, but I've mentioned that yes he has talked to me, over and over and over. He verbally begged me for affection, he verbally asked if there was anything we could do to move forward, etc.

He's told me how he's feeling, he's cried, we've both cried, we have talked until we couldn't talk anymore, and we'd agree to try and then I lose my shit 2 days later and go back on it all.

I don't know why I continue to be so angry over it after he's done everything right these past years. Maybe it's partly the adjustment disorder, maybe it's partly the PSTD left undealt with. Maybe I am mourning the "fairy tale", IDK, hopefully IC will help me with this.

Yes, he's mentioned divorce multiple times over the years, not only recently. This last time sounded so final and it was after a HUGE blow up between us, it scared me to think I was about to lose him but when he "took it back" I didn't change anything even after being scared.

“I needed the attention cuz you would not give it to me” is the ultimate abuse sword that a WS will lie on. And he seems to wield that one quite easily again when needed.

Absolutely, I actually told him this outright, it's a cliche excuse that is pulled right out of the cheater's handbook. I am not sure why you are saying he's wielding it again though, because he never once said that after the 1st d-day.

He never blamed-shifted AT ALL after d-day 1.

He owned up to it from the very start after d-day 1 and said HE had made horrible choices because he was a selfish POS.

When he even TRIED to use that excuse this time, I shut that down so fast, it's not acceptable to cheat because you aren't getting what you want. But it's not something that was ever a part of our previous d-day, it wouldn't even have made sense for him to say it, he wasn't getting "affection" from these strangers, he was getting "a fuck", none of it was affectionate.

He may just be this way. And you know it. You know that you will always live with someone who will pull this card when it gets tough. You want more. But you won’t leave him.

I probably won't leave him unless it's absolutely necessary, I HAVE thought of it in our worst times, I won't lie. I've imagined starting a new life with the kids but I always end up wanting to stay with him.

I'm not sure what you mean about him pulling this card when it gets tough, it took him 4 years of constant abuse from me to "pull this card" again, and if life was ever tough, it has DEFINITELY been throughout these 4 years. It wasn't a good choice for him to make, it shouldn't have happened, but I think he's redeemable with more work on himself and a GOOD IC this time (we have better insurance now).

I don't think he'll always be this way, maybe I'm wrong. Cheating aside, he is a good guy, good father, and we've had a lot of good times together. The infidelity has definitely stained or tarnished that but it doesn't nullify it completely.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 9:12 PM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

I want to add this piece though... as someone who has moved a lot, and then moved back to my home state later... it’s different when you come back. It’s not always as good as you remembered. It does become a grass is greener on the other side kinda thing.

I'm honestly afraid of that happening to me as well, but I won't stay in this state alone with no family once my family leaves. I never actually wanted to live in the state we are in now, I dislike it greatly and have been miserable here daily.

I only moved here because I had nowhere else to go after D-Day 1, we lived in a different state and I had NO family or friends (we lived near his family), I had nowhere to go when I found out about his cheating, I had to drive to a grocery store parking lot just to get some space and think.

My parents lived here so this is where I came. Now they're moving back and it's my opportunity to finally go back as well, AND if I don't I'll be in the same situation, no family around, no support, etc. Not to mention my kids will have NO-ONE here for holidays or birthdays or things like that.

We saw the new therapist and she is very much a no BS (but pleasant) type. This will be our first actual venture into MC, as our last attempt was cut short by my therapist (who was also going to provide the MC) leaving.

She said she is going to teach me some boundaries to help me with the pain/anger, I almost felt like she was judging me for staying by saying that *I* didn't have boundaries (I think I enforced a lot of boundaries after the 1st d-day, using all of the advice from here, I didn't agree to R until 3 months after d-day and seeing him work on himself, I got full transparency, etc).

Actually previous therapists have told me that I was VERY good about how I acted in the aftermath, it's almost something I was "proud of" in some weird way. I'm guessing I'm mis-reading her words and feeling defensive. H says that he doesn't think any IC would SHAME someone for staying.

She called H out for everything, she kept pointing out that he cheated because he wanted to, plain and simple, but she also wants to look into his FOO and adolescent trauma, and history of bipolar and ADHD also, as it runs in his side of the family. She compared him to a child acting out for attention, he HATES being called or compared to a child so this made him really upset (he told me afterwards in the car) but he didn't get defensive.

I'm scared to open this raw wound but I hope she can help, her reviews were all amazing.

I almost want to bail out, it's scary, but I know that's not the right choice.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 9:08 AM, September 12th (Thursday)]

I also feel shitty for not wanting to walk away after threatening that if it ever happened again I'd be gone.

Hi. On this point I’d venture to say that any BS who R’s has to grapple with this. If you asked me before my WW’s A if I’d walk away if she ever had an affair, the answer would have been “Hell yeah.” And it was in any conversation about the topic. Yet...4 years later and I’m still here. How do you reconcile staying with your own view, your values and your own personal sense of right and wrong? For me, there are reasons why I stayed and I believe they were good reasons. In no small part was my wife’s actions post DDay.

You need to come to terms with this if you want to stay. An A is a dealbreaker. If you choose to attempt R (for real this time) then you need to accept that his A was a dealbreaker but, for X, Y and Z reasons, you want to R. Attempting R is not excusing or condoning his A. But you have to reconcile that decision within yourself. And if you can’t, it may mean that R is just not for you, and that’s more than okay.

In the end, be content with your choice. I can’t predict the future so I don’t mean either choice will guaranteed work out the way you want. But whatever you choose, be happy with the choice you make. For example, “I am choosing R because [insert reasons]. It may not be what I thought I’d do, but I’m doing it because X and that’s the right choice for me at this time.” There is no wrong answer, and just because you thought you’d do one thing doesn’t mean you’re locked into it forever.

R takes a ton of work and in some ways even more from the BS. You know what your work is, and only you can decide if it’s something you’re willing to do.

Best of luck.

I think you missed what I was saying when you said this:

We actually tried this a year or so ago, and I feel like it took too much pressure off. I was free to act like we weren't married, I was free to ignore him without the guilty feeling that came with it, I was free to act like we were room mates and I felt no pressure to acknowledge him at all really.

I didn't mean going back to roommate land - I meant getting to WORK on yourself so you can figure out if this is the beginning of change or the end of the marriage. That's what I mean. It means making a conscious effort to figure out what you will do and having a plan to execute for yourself. How not only to manage your pain if you find you think you will be able to but to actually work THROUGH it either with or without him. I actually think that MC is a bad idea for more than a few sessions - you both need individual work in my humble and unlicensed view.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 2:00 PM, September 12th (Thursday)]

We are both doing IC and MC.

In any case, I know now that I have work to do. I am still aiming for R, I hate to be in limbo, with anything really, not just this, it's just my nature.

But I can say and know we are attempting R, while also knowing that, at any point I can change my mind to D.

It feels different this time knowing that I will be working on myself with a highly praised IC as well, hopefully one who won't tell me to "be the big, juicy burger so that he won't want to look elsewhere".

((((HOW))))

Recognizing the abuser within is one of the toughest, gut-wrenching reality checks we can give ourselves.

Do you like to read? I can suggest a series of books that will help.

I do like to read when I can manage to concentrate. I've found I can rarely get through a whole book ever since D-Day 1.