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how should we view WW’s in this light, and WW’s view of their BH’s, given that sexual intercourse is freighted with so much more risk and energy for women than for men?

Theoretically, a married woman is taking less risk because she has a man committed to providing for her and her children. Of course, there's the risk that the H will discover he is not the bio dad of the children and leave. Here's where CS laws get tricky. A man is legally obligated to provide for any children born to his W during the M unless it is proven he is not the bio dad. Being able to definitively prove that is a relatively new advancement.

That also explains why CWs are more likely to go for the words of an A, as RIO puts it, than the sex. If the OM makes her feel special, she will probably believe that, if push came to shove, he will take care of her and any children produced. And, again, CS laws can ensure that. If none of that works, there's always abortion.

These are all my musings on this subject based on what I studied in college. What that means for you and your CW is up to you to figure out.

The same can be said for CHes, in a way. Why do men who cheat stay married? If it's all about sex, why do they need to be married? Mareiage provides practical benefits to men. Married men tend to be healthier and live longer. They have someone to care for their children and home, etc.

All of the extraneous factors that put men and women in these roles are changing, so maybe it's not as risky for women as it used to be. We can see that, I think, in the evolution of the modern romantic, sexual relationship. More FWBs. More, or at least more open, polyamory. More divorce. More blended families. Women don't need men as much as they used to.

Then, there are the studies that show how hormonal birth control actually changes how women choose mates, which can be disastrous to marriage.

Marriage and fidelity are relatively new concepts in the history of the human species. There are still societies without marriage and, essentially, fatherhood. Genetic kinship is determined through female lineage. Uncles, brothers, and sons take care of the worm and children connected to them through the females in their families. Or, the society, as a whole, takes care of everyone equally.

So how should we view WW’s in this light, and WW’s view of their BH’s, given that sexual intercourse is freighted with so much more risk and energy for women than for men?

I think coco made some excellent points. Intelligent ones. I think my answer might have been simple, at least for me...

Stupidity. Ignoring all risks. (I am a rare bird in that condoms were used, but honestly that's really not all that noble in the scheme of all that I did do that was stupid). If people who had affairs did risk assessments and abide by them, then well noone would ever do it.

And, I am not a stupid woman. I am not trying to be bragging but I am a smart woman, and generally speaking one that has always had a lot of common sense.

I will give you an extreme example. Let's say I went out and did crack. (Is did crack even the way to say that, I am so not versed). It was my decision to do crack initially. Then, I am so sucked into how crack made me feel that I started doing all sorts of things out of character for me. The longer it goes on the worse it usually is.

Obviously, I don't have anything that was altering my sobriety, but the trajectory of the affair is really no different. You simply take more and more risks, risks you ignore because you are so single minded towards the goal.

Extreme example, I know. But, the escalation of how things happen and the focus/prioritization becomes insanely out of sync.

If people who had affairs did risk assessments

I think they do do risk assessments. They must in order to figure out how to hide it. If they didn't know it was risky, IOW probably not such a good idea, they wouldn't feel the need to hide it.

My H did lots of assessments. He assessed whether or not he was happy. He decided he was not. He assessed whether or not I would care. He decided that I didn't. He assessed whether or not he could get away with it. He thought I'd never find out. I wouldn't have if he weren't such an idiot. He assessed the risk of pregnancy. He wore a condom during intercourse. He didn't really asses the risks of STIs. He did not wear a condom when she gave him a BJ. Although, I have since learned that many seemingly intelligent men don't understand the risk of STIs involved in oral.

I think the ones who don't do that risk assessment just don't care. I think those kinds of cheaters are not the norm.

Hmmm. I will think on that one.

I think for me it was a lot more what you described in your last post on the compartmentalization thread...Pushing it out of your mind so that you can enjoy it. Risks to me were the same way.

Hiding it as to not get caught, that's maybe less about risk assessment and more about being selfish. You don't know what the fall out will be but you know you don't want it. You know you want it to continue and it can't if you don't hide it. That's more about the day you are on rather than the long term vision.

Risk assessment to me would be in depth thinking about all the risks beforehand. I don't think all WS do that. I didn't do that. I never allowed myself to really go through all the damages that it did that I could have because I was pushing it out of my head to enjoy it. Heck, I would say it was a year after DDAY before I really got the depth of all the damages that I didn't assess going into it. Literally, thousands of little pieces changed. A really well thought out risk assessment would have maybe outlined some of it. I would have researched it, maybe even found this place. I did far more risk assessment in purchasing my last car, to be honest.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:51 PM, February 28th (Friday)]

Remember: human beings can hold contradictory beliefs simultaneously. Human beings can also hide their motivations.

Have you ever given a potential partner/friend/sex partner a no-strings attached gift?

Boy, that's one thing I tried to do - I put in a lot of effort knowing I'd fail.

The first gift I gave plainsong was on my birthday, less than 24 hours after the first time she refused to have sex with me - fear of pregnancy and fear of being abandoned compounded by forgotten CSA, not to mention that she was about to go to a great grad school and she didn't want to fuck that up with a questionable (because it was new) relationship.

I wanted the gift to mean I was committed, that I respected her right to make a decision about her own body, etc., etc., etc.

But i was conscious of other thoughts, and I probably had thoughts that haven't yet come into my consciousness, like:

I wanted the gift to increasing her liking for me. That wasn't a requirement, but I sort of expected it.

I was willing to accept 'no' to sex for some time, but I was in love with her, and I loved her, but if we weren't getting into bed sometime in the more or less near future, I wasn't going to stick around.

Later I gave her a string of pearls. Spent over 1/8 of my assets on it. We were almost engaged. If, in the end, we decided not to go through with the engagement, I wanted her to keep the pearls.

Soooo...no immediate strings attached ... but strings were attached.

I never could figure out how to give an NSA gift.

And yet the desire to give an NSA gift was strong. I wanted our relationship to be non-transactional, but it couldn't be.

But our relationship has been as non-transactional as we can make it. It has been, in a way both T and NT.

*****

Perhaps the NT element is taking the risk of giving/tieing oneself to another ... but even that is probably done in part to get something from the other.

HO, I didn't say they did a good job of risk assessment. I do think they do it, though. The one risk assessment I think my H missed was to his career. Either I or the MOW could've really fucked that up. I am astonished that that didn't occur to him.

Sisoon, I give NSA gifts all the time. I make hand knit and crocheted items. I give them away to just about anyone who expresses an interest. I just finished a pair of socks for a friend. She doesn't know I made them for her. I can't wait to give them to her. I hope she likes them and they fit, if she doesn't or they don't, I'll take them back. NBD

I give NSA gifts to my kids all the time. My almost 29 year old son expressed interest in yoga. I sent him a beginner's yoga kit. If he doesn't use it, that's ok. Maybe he can find someone else who will.

If/when I give a gift to my H, I don't expect or even hope for anything in return, not even a thank you. It's totally ok for him to say he doesn't want. I'll take it back. Maybe I'll return it. Maybe I'll give it to someone else.

I found a really cool local Facebook group recently. I think they're all over the US, maybe the world. It's called, Buy Nothing. People go on there and post things to give and ask for things they want. I've given away a few things. I've gotten one thing. It's so cool. Save money, help the planet, reduce waste and consumerism.

I'm even one of those crazy people who will give money to a homeless person. I don't care what they do with it. I gave money to one guy and watched him immediately walk into the liquor store. I wasn't angry. I figured he must be really sick if that's what he needs. It wasn't a lot of money. I didn't lose anything.

Perhaps the NT element is taking the risk of giving/tieing oneself to another ... but even that is probably done in part to get something from the other.

And that goes back to the OP. Most people give love to get love. Most wouldn't purposely love and marry someone who they didn't think loved them back. When marriage was first introduced, it was purely transactional. People were forced to marry someone they had never even seen before the wedding day.

IDK, coco.

I have a neighbor who simply should not be a member of a condo association. I thought I had to confront some of her crap in email. I did so in a gentle way, and I ended with the hope that today and everyday was a good day for her.

That is a genuine hope. It's just that it's for my benefit - I figure she'll be less of a pain in the butt if she's happy. If she were to move, I wouldn;t care less how her days are. That was only an apparent NSA hope.

One gripe: she said something like, 'Why do we have to paint? We have no wood in our development.' That shocked everybody who heard it - some of the siding of the building is wood. (The actual situation has been hidden here to maintain anonymity.)

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:18 PM, February 29th (Saturday)]