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I don't disagree with that sentiment, Thumos. That what a BS stays for should be worth it.

However, I think what you are really talking about is making it fair. It will never be fair. I honestly believe when a couple successfully reconciles they let go of the idea of fair. They accept it's part of the fabric. There is nothing wrong with not doing that, but there is nothing wrong if that's what they decide to do either.

I think H and I had a great marriage. But, I don't think we had a great marriage based on me being healthy. We had a great marriage because I let a lot of shit go that I should have put boundaries up about. I think that's not uncommon in cheating situations.

So, in other words, to R, my husband is going to have to come to the decision he likes the healthy me better and that it does enhance our great marriage. At the same time, that could mean he has to compromise more. I say this as an example of it's not really about the marriage just being what one expects from a good marriage.

In a good reconciliation, the WS becomes a better person. You may still have a good or great marriage, but I think a healthier person will always have more to contribute. But, fair is not going to be there. Even in the case where I cheated, and he cheated, people want to make that equal out in their minds somehow. It doesn't. It means we had two unhealthy people who got along, had reasonable amounts of sex, and were able to build a life together.

It's not that I think you specifically Thumos should give up an idea of fair. I am just giving you a different perspective of what you just said.

What specifically were you proud of before?

I understand your comment, but if you think of taking pride in actions, what was your action (or inaction?) that you were proud of?

Kind of a deep question actually.

I was proud of lots of things. We made big decisions together and united. Where to move as we started our careers. House purchase. We agreed on timing to have kids, and we have so far agreed on how to raise them. We resolved conflicts pretty smoothly. We didn't fight or rehash minor arguments. We split household duties in an agreed manner. We were faithful to one another (is that an action or inaction?). I was more or less convinced we were doing everything "right" and together.

Yes, all these things are still mostly true. She and I are still good co-parents and have the features of a healthy relationship. But having an A is a massive decision she made unilaterally. It resulted in rehashing the same fight a hundred times. It resulted in me questioning if we really shared values and a vision of the future. It resulted in other fights that probably never would have been fights. I'm still not 100% sure choosing R is the right decision, but I'm ok living with that uncertainty.

But the doubt and uncertainty do sort of create that lack of feeling of pride even if I think I'm doing the best I can.

I don't know. Maybe it's like you used to be a competitive athlete, and you would win your races and be proud. Then you had a massive injury, and you do your best. Still better than most. Still competitive. But you don't win as much, and you aren't as proud of your results.

Thankyou, so much for all your replies. I feel like all the heavy weights have come out to advise. Thankyou so much for your time and consideration. I have found it all very thought provoking and tbh I am still working out thought processes.

#Sisoon

This is why I stress so much that the BS needs to figure out what they want and go after it.

I think this is my biggest challenge. I twist in the wind about what it is I want. What I really want I cannot have with my WS, because I wanted to be with someone who valued/respected me enough not to treat me the way he has.

Now, if you're torn over the pass, you've got a problem. If you're terrified of giving and/or not giving it, you've got a problem. If you're terrified of accepting and/or not accepting it, you've got a problem.

This is probably where I am, I want to give it, I want to believe, but then something small may happen which tickles my hypersensitivity and it makes me recoil. I question whether I have the ability to be able to truly move forward from this. I question if this relationship could ever give me what I want. I wonder whether I would be actually be happier on my own. I question what am I trying to save and for who? I fear making the wrong decision.

One thing you must accept though: you've been betrayed, whether you R or D. The consequences cannot be escaped. Oh, you can escape them by taking drastic action - but don't take poison hoping your WS will suffer. Don't punish yourself because your WS fouled up. The best revenge on any WS is to live a good, joyful life.

Yes and isn't this the truth. I was married before and my ex husband also cheated on me. We divorced. We were childhood sweethearts, together for 11years and divorced within two years of marriage.

Fortunately no children, so I was able to focus on myself, my career and then went travelling for a year with a friend. I was in my late twenties, my life to live for. I met my WS, he had also been married before, his wife had cheated on him, they divorced. I never thought he would cheat on me. Like most betrayed I genuinely believed he would have had enough integrity to walk away first.

So yes, I am aware of the consequences of betrayal. Trying to reconcile has been so much harder than divorcing my ex. My health has been considerably affected, (but that will also be age related). But my WS and I also have three children, I am over twenty years older. Some days it makes more sense to try and make it work, my WS and I have an invested interest in the future of our family. Other days I think, if I am lucky I have another 25/30 years, I could meet someone else and have the type of relationship I have always wanted. I want to feel all the things that are lost in a relationship tainted with infidelity. But maybe this is as good as it gets.

Consequences and choices.

I've started questioning whether relationships are actually only as strong as the messages you tell yourself today.

#Notaboringwife

this husband of mine who lost his head, mind, spirit and soul

I can relate to this. I see that the person who lost the most was my WS. Unfortunately he didn't have the foresight to see what he was trading.

I have had my share of traumas in my life, and I believe that compared to that, my husband's affair is insignificant.

I wish I could be so resolute in my way of thinking.

Sorry its taken me an age writing this I will reply to others over the next few days.

kind regards, take good care of yourselves.

Thankyou, so much for all your replies. I feel like all the heavy weights have come out to advise. Thankyou so much for your time and consideration. I have found it all very thought provoking and tbh I am still working out thought processes.

#Sisoon

This is why I stress so much that the BS needs to figure out what they want and go after it.

I think this is my biggest challenge. I twist in the wind about what it is I want. What I really want I cannot have with my WS, because I wanted to be with someone who valued/respected me enough not to treat me the way he has.

Now, if you're torn over the pass, you've got a problem. If you're terrified of giving and/or not giving it, you've got a problem. If you're terrified of accepting and/or not accepting it, you've got a problem.

This is probably where I am, I want to give it, I want to believe, but then something small may happen which tickles my hypersensitivity and it makes me recoil. I question whether I have the ability to be able to truly move forward from this. I question if this relationship could ever give me what I want. I wonder whether I would be actually be happier on my own. I question what am I trying to save and for who? I fear making the wrong decision.

One thing you must accept though: you've been betrayed, whether you R or D. The consequences cannot be escaped. Oh, you can escape them by taking drastic action - but don't take poison hoping your WS will suffer. Don't punish yourself because your WS fouled up. The best revenge on any WS is to live a good, joyful life.

Yes and isn't this the truth. I was married before and my ex husband also cheated on me. We divorced. We were childhood sweethearts, together for 11years and divorced within two years of marriage.

Fortunately no children, so I was able to focus on myself, my career and then went travelling for a year with a friend. I was in my late twenties, my life to live for. I met my WS, he had also been married before, his wife had cheated on him, they divorced. I never thought he would cheat on me. Like most betrayed I genuinely believed he would have had enough integrity to walk away first.

So yes, I am aware of the consequences of betrayal. Trying to reconcile has been so much harder than divorcing my ex. My health has been considerably affected, (but that will also be age related). But my WS and I also have three children, I am over twenty years older. Some days it makes more sense to try and make it work, my WS and I have an invested interest in the future of our family. Other days I think, if I am lucky I have another 25/30 years, I could meet someone else and have the type of relationship I have always wanted. I want to feel all the things that are lost in a relationship tainted with infidelity. But maybe this is as good as it gets.

Consequences and choices.

I've started questioning whether relationships are actually only as strong as the messages you tell yourself today.

#Notaboringwife

this husband of mine who lost his head, mind, spirit and soul

I can relate to this. I see that the person who lost the most was my WS. Unfortunately he didn't have the foresight to see what he was trading.

I have had my share of traumas in my life, and I believe that compared to that, my husband's affair is insignificant.

I wish I could be so resolute in my way of thinking.

Sorry its taken me an age writing this I will reply to others over the next few days.

kind regards, take good care of yourselves.

Continued

#ISurvivedSoFar

we lost something very special and it is likely gone forever

^^This^^

Accepting the change is key in my mind.

I can see this.

#lifestoshort

You never get out of worry and anxiousness and hurt when in R.

This is what I dread.

#sisoon

I think my W is extremely unlikely to betray me again, and I think she's much less likely to betray me than any new person I meet.

I feel the same way, but can i trust my judgement? I'm still trying o work that one out.

To heal, each of has to figure out the thought patterns that work for for us as individuals.

#DaddyDom

Daddydom, may I take this opportunity to thank you for the time you have invested in writing some of the healing scripts you have written over the years. I found them incredibly useful in the early stages post dday. I used them as a point of reference and they just helped me navigate my way through the pain.

At that point, they are sad for themselves without a greater sense of empathy for others, and they often view their sadness through the eyes of a victim rather than taking ownership of their part in the outcomes.

This was very prevalent in the way my WS has behaved.

#Want2BHappyAgain

That wasn't the question I asked myself. I asked what it was that I wanted MY life to be . I literally wrote down EVERYTHING I wanted in life! Then I tweaked the list a bit and narrowed it down to something that was what I would want my life to BE. I wanted a happy and healthy marriage with a loving and faithful spouse . I then told my H what I wanted. I told him IF he wanted this too...GREAT! If not...I was finding someone who would!! My H totally agreed that this was what HE wanted too...so we set out making OUR life to be this way . It has honestly turned out to be BETTER than either of us ever dreamed it could be .

This is a great exercise to do and maybe I should write it down instead of just thinking about it in my head.I love your positive stories and am very happy it has worked out for you and your husband. You seem to have learnt from this experience and grown together during your growth out of infidelity.

#icangetpastthis

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I am actually the betrayed spouse.

#Dragonfly123

No one was significant at the time apart from himself and that is something he needs to deal with and heal from. I know he feels a great deal of pain over this.

I recognise this as the truth.

I don’t know if this helps or not but I honestly believe successful reconciliation (alongside authentic remorse from your WS) truly comes from really looking at you and what makes you happy and accepting that and it also helps you let go of any shame you feel for staying with a cheater which I feel prevents so many BS moving forward.

This is what i am working on at the moment. I think my progress is hindered by my WS who still exercises considerable selfish behaviour, but it would n=be unfair of me to say he isn't trying to make amends. I think I just need to recognise more of these changes consistently to reinforce to myself that our future is worth the investment.

#This0is0Fine

The trust has to be rebuilt.

I think this is very significant for me. The lack of trust within our relationship which is there on many levels. I don't think he is cheating on me. But I do not think he has done sufficient work to protect him/us from it happening again at some point in the future. I concede that risk also lies with anyone. However the lack of honesty my WS has recently displayed over very general things has tripped something in me a few weeks ago, which has put me in a state of hypertension, that is what prompted this thread. I have been prescribed blood pressure tablets and my blood pressure is coming down.

Blind trust/naivete/innocence is lost

^^^ Yes this ^^^

#Thumos

But I don't have that deep assumed respect I had before. It always has a conditional background noise behind it.

So it's a lack of "trust falls" type of trust, a lack of overall pride in the relationship and a lack of profound respect. They're not going to return to being a person you admire implicitly, without reservation.

I can relate to this Thumos.

#Hikingout

It seems to me that the questions you have are probably not being answered by your husband. Have you asked him? Does he ever bring up the affair or volunteer? Do you discuss what each of you want out of the relationship moving forward?

This is a significant part of it. No he never volunteers to discuss the affair or bring it up. He avoids programs with it in. We have discussed what we want out of the relationship, written it down and even discussed it in counselling, but we never seem to make it priority. Covid hasn't helped and I can see how easily we slip into our negative cycles that probably existed pre A.

Being open, more vulnerable towards each other, being more aware of our own needs and the needs of the other. Showing consistency and proving to one another that we are worth fighting for.

This is another area we struggle on.

But, I also know that life is very short. If R can not meet the high expectations by showing one another consistency, growth, that we have reflected deeply on ourselves and what we have done to one another - then settling isn't on the menu either. I understand not everyone can get a divorce tomorrow, but if that's the better choice then set you mind on that and work consistently until you can get there.

This is a recurring thought of mine. I will keep doing the work to get myself emotionally and physically strong and trust the process will show me if I have outgrown my relationship with my WS. It has to be better than this to be worth saving.

Maybe you are having a bad day, or maybe your spouse has shown no growth or given you any reason to engage and try. These are answers you have to give to yourself. I can only tell you are worth it and deserve to have everything you want in a relationship. Even more so, you deserve to love yourself and create the life you want and sometimes that means not being in a relationship at all.

Bad day yes, being diagnosed with extremely high blood pressure felt like a slap in the face and a wake up call for me to make changes . But there is still something which keeps holding me back. I don't know what it is or why. Which is why I think it is all part of the process. I'm not scared of being on my own. I have put aside funds and budgeted to see how I would survive. I am taking active steps to build my business to ensure a decent sale proceed when I retire 7-10 years from now. I have my own credit card and bank account now. So I have set up an exit plan and for a while I felt empowered by that. But this last year has been hard. My oldest left for uni, covid, menapause. Sometimes I struggled to keep it all together. I went to the doctors for HRT which is when I was told about my blood pressure, so HRT couldn't be prescribed. LIFE!!

I thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate you have been going through a tough time too and I wish you the best of luck in your travels in the RV. Have you sold your house yet?

#Shokt. Thankyou for your positive story. I wish you and your husband well.

#Thumos

I find myself struggling with this as the expectation -- because for me, I expect extra. I expect more. If I'm signing up for R, shouldn't what I get as an outcome be actually "stronger, better" than the normal marriage I had before?

Thumos I agree, I expect more and maybe that's my failing. My counsellor told me to be who I wanted to be with, in the relationship. Then I know I have tried everything. I want to see my WS put himself out, go above and beyond for me - not him! To be actively involved in our life, organising nights out, days out etc for us, not just his dad's quiz night and golfing day's. But maybe that is the problem.

Well I best retire its 3.46am in the UK and I will need to get up for work at 7!!

Now, if you're torn over the pass, you've got a problem. If you're terrified of giving and/or not giving it, you've got a problem. If you're terrified of accepting and/or not accepting it, you've got a problem.

For the record, that's something like a diagnosis; it is not a criticism. Problems can be solved, but first you have to recognize a problem.

I felt awful when I didn't know whether to choose D or R. I chose one option and felt less awful. I felt better and better as I learned I had chosen well.

For me the choice was R. For others, the choice that led to feeling good was D. The crucial factor isn't choosing what one person or another tells you is right or wrong - it's make the choice that is right for you.

Of course you don't trust your judgment - it's too easy to believe your judgment got you to this horrific place.

In the end, though, you must trust your judgment.

Here's the thing, though: you can't predict the future. All you can do is gather data and make a choice.

If you want to be with your WS and think your WS is remorseful, choose R. If your WS flakes out, you've lost time, but you can still D.

If you choose D because you don't want to be with your WS, you're pretty safe. If you go for D because your WS isn't remorseful and he then gets his head out of his butt, it may be harder to re-M, but it's still possible.

IOW, even if you make a mistake in your choice now, you can recover.

But choosing R or D is obviously a risk. Not choosing is also a risk, though the risk is not always obvious.

IOW, you can't avoid choosing. At the same time, you're 3.5 years out. I'm pretty confident that gathering more data will allow your head, heart, and gut to align on the same choice.

You can't avoid risk, but you can get comfortable with your choice.

Sunny - you are welcome. Be patient with yourself, and it sounds like you are in good shape if this doesn't work out for you.

If I may suggest - I think you should consider sharing some of these feelings with your husband. Tell him that it would feel like you guys were much more in this together if he would bring up things about the affair so that you know you aren't the only one carrying all these feelings about what he has done. I would share with him that you want to feel differently about this marriage but without more work as a couple it's causing you to question if you are making the right decision.

I know it's a lot to ask you to be vulnerable with him, but you are already vulnerable in this relationship. To have more empathy and compassion we need to know things from you as well. If he is unreceptive to this guidance then I think you may have more answers from that than you could ever give yourself.

And, yes we are in contract with the house sale. Here in America, once you have a contract to sell it takes some time usually to go through the rigors and it can still fall through. Thanks for asking and the well wishes.