SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have to admit that your WW's casual attitude and sharing her infidelity with her friends does raise red flags, and raises doubts whether you are getting the full story. There is one method to find out if indeed your WW was:

Probably

Only

Lying to you

Year after year about her exploits,

Getting

Rapidly

Aggressive

Publicizing

Her conquests with her friends.

Or: polygraph for short!

Sorry you are going through this. Good luck.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:44 AM, Thursday, August 14th]

The amount of info that can be included in a few paragraphs is so little that all I have are questions, assumptions, and conditionals.

I'll start with why she cheated: Shirley Glass (NOT "Just Friends") states that affairs happen in good Ms when the WS lacks strong boundaries.

But IMO, the reasons don't really matter. No matter what the reasons were (in my W's case, self-hate). I had to deal with the grief, anger, fear, and shame that were dumped on me on d-day - and that was with a 4+ month A and a W who turned on a dime before she revealed her A. Those feelings seem to hit virtually all BSes, so they probably hit you. My reco is to work on processing those feelings out of your body.

*****

I, too, would like to know more about your WS's drinking. Is she addicted? If so, she'll continue to use, and alcohol does some nasty things to one's brain and other organs. If she continues to drink, no matter what she intends to do, the alcohol might remove exactly the inhibitions that you and she want to stay in place.

If she's an alcoholic, it looks like she's white-knuckling, and that doesn't have a great success rate.

If she's addicted to booze, She has to address the addiction before she can reliably address cheating.

*****

You have 2 episodes not very far apart. Were the new job and asshole boss enough to mess her up that badly? Is this the 1st time she abused alcohol on a sales trip? the first time she picked someone up?

IOW, I would question previous behavior. Your W might have a history of partying while away from home. If so, that might be a deal-killer.

(BTW, I know at least a few road warriors who abused alcohol without cheating, so one doesn't necessarily imply the other.)

*****

What do you want? Have you considered other options?

The fact is: you can heal with or without your WS. To R, you heal you; your WS heals themself; together you heal/build/rebuild/etc. your M - if you both really want to.

If you don't want to R, you're free not to. You can't make a free choice of one option unless you can also freely choose other options. My reco is: do not try to control the outcome. Focus on healing yourself, and let the outcome emerge from your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors and your W's.

*****

If you ask questions about the part you played in your W's decisions to cheat, you'll probably find that you played no part. 'Not taking care of yourself' is not a reason; everyone should know people gain weight as they age.

As alluded to above, my W did not like herself, so positive feedback from others (of which she got a lot, for good reasons) pushed her closer to the edge. She thought she was a terrible person, so she attempted to prove it. (That was one of several motivators.)

So IMO your W probably didn't do this to you. She did it to herself. Wanting external validation could be, for your W as for some others, is just the other side of the self-hate or self-disgust coin.

*****

It takes 2 to R and one to D.

IMO, taking responsibility for yourself and focusing on your healing and on what you want from your W is the best path for you to take. Look deep inside. I still wanted to spend my life with my W after d-day, and she was a good candidate for R, so I chose R.

Others wanted R, but their WSes were lousy candidates, and they D'ed. Still others realized they did not want to spend the rest of their lives with their WSes, and they chose D as soon after they realized that as possible.

*****

I also recommend asking questions of and raising your concerns to SIers. No one of us can legitimately tell you whether to D or R or wait - you know yourself, your WS, and your sitch better than anyone here does.

But you'll probably get a wide range of experience of what did and did not work for people, and that may provide guidance for you.

Wow that was horrific to read. I really have to say you don't have much to work with here unless she dumps all those friends she was sharing videos with, stops drinking and gets another job.

And that's for starters

The therapist pointing to "trauma" seems like a move to keep getting money out of you. If the therapist really addressed the problems, you wouldn't have to go back. And the therapist would be out money.

You've gotten much better advice than i could ever give. Except you do need to realize none of this was ever about you or your weight, etc. It was all about her. The whole pocketing the wedding ring thing would have been an absolute dealbreaker for me regardless of what else transpired. I had an ex like this that said all the right things but at the end of the day was nothing short of a common bar skank

Stay in this marriage at your own peril.

Hi,

Thanks everyone for your helpful feedback. This is going to go a long way in guiding me. Also, a few folks had follow up questions, so I have updated my original post with answers at the bottom. Please let me know if I have missed answering any questions.

Much appreciated!

Also, some people have asked me what I wish to do now. I really want to make it work and have some of what we used at the beginning of our relationship. Now, I know it will never ever be the same considering the cheating, but I am hoping it will get to a "good" place, where we can love and trust each other again. I know we both want that.

BUT,

I have no trust is her at this point. I am hoping this builds up over time. I know she genuinely wants to stay and make this work, I know she genuinely started making positive changes months before D-Day. I know alcohol was not the reason she cheated, but it did lower her inhibitions that allowed her to act on her desire. I suppose we all look at beautiful people and fantasize once in a while, especially when things are not going great in our lives, but we don't act out on it. I am learning that alcohol and being extremely drunk can give you enough of a nudge to cross that line. I am very happy that she is staying away from alcohol. I can tell when she has had even one drink as her voice changes. I know she had not indulged in boos in a months. All this gives me some hope that maybe one day we can recover to a very happy marriage, maybe even a stronger one.

On the communication and honesty front, we have never been as open to each other in as over the past month. We even started having sex again about a week ago. It was not planned, but I initiated it as we were just cuddling, watching TV together. It has been the best sex of our lives, even better than the "honeymoon phase" of a new relationship. I looked this up, and it is called "Hysterical Bonding". We are having sex 3-4 times a day, every day. I don't know if this is good or bad, but it seems to be getting us closer to each other, and along with the openness in communication this is giving me hope for the future.

The day after I posted my original post, we sat down and started talking (as we do everyday about the two cheating events), and she has finally started opening up to me about what was going on in her mind. She admitted to being attracted to the first guy (that's obvious) but also told me that she had inappropriate thoughts while she was at the bar. They were both hitting on each other pretty hard, and at some point during her time at the bar, she realized what is likely going to happen at the end of the night. She knew that she wanted to have sex with him, well before they sat in the lobby and he kissed her. I knew this all along in the back of my head. It was an obvious thing to me, but she kept saying she did not really plan it, and it "Just happened". I know there had to be some realization on her part that this would happen (while she was at the bar) before it actually did, and she finally admitted it. As hurtful as that is for me to accept, I already knew this in my mind. Her willingness to come out and say that to me shows me that she is trying her best to give me answers.

She told me same about the second incident. She was planning to just drink at the bar and leave, but the opportunity arose, and she gave in to her desires again. She said she was really flattered by a 24 year old hot buy hitting on her. Which is kind of idiotic in my opinion. You see a married woman alone at a bar, getting hammered around 11 PM, and when you approach her she shows interest, most single men in his right mind would take advantage. You would have to be pretty hideous for a man to reject an easy lay. How is this building up her ego? or making her feel young. I know it is thrilling and she finally admitted that is what she was after.

All this is extremely hurtful, and it is shallow on her part. She said this herself, that she acted very shallow and selfish, and feels extremely ashamed that she put her family at risk and has severely damaged our marriage. Silver lining, she realized this soon after the second one, and made changes in her life to make sure she never puts herself in the same position again. I think giving up boos is a huge step for her, and shows she is genuinely interested in saving our marriage and preventing further damage.

I know I am rambling, but just laying out my thought that are currently taking over my brain. Thanks for listening!

What about the sober boasting and bragging. Were you ever around her friends after she shared the video?

This is more than validation - this is purposefully hurtful to you. Also, all waywards trickle true - there is more to the story.

Best of luck.

The sober bragging and sharing pics/vids would terrify me. What happens the next time she starts feeling bad about herself and wants validation....

I would call out her friends for being part of the secret. Their husbands should know their wives are okay with keeping an affair secret. The husband might start doing some digging.

I haven't seen any of the friends in person in about two years. It is unclear if she sent video of the 24 year old and Facebook profile picture of the bartender (she is not Facebook friends with him, and he lives about 6 hours away) to all four of her friends, but I know she did to two of them. She told four, but she says she can't recall which of the four got the picture/video, but all four were told about it. At the very least, 2 friends did received the video of the second one and one of the two (the cheater with 2 kids in my original post update) who received the video for sure and also received pictures of the first one. I know she was still drinking for about a week after the second one but it was at home, and she was very drunk through that first week after the second incident. I started noticing her not ordering alcohol on our vacation, which was approximately 10 days after the second incident. She has been basically drunk daily since she was a teenager. She is/was what you call a "functioning alcoholic" and she would start in the morning, even at work (mixing it in her coffee) during that time. Her alcoholism was progressing from drinking every evening, to drinking the entire day.

[This message edited by innoculatdimmunity at 5:40 PM, Thursday, August 14th]

Also, the cheater friend is single, with 2 kids.

Second friend has been divorced many years, but is very good friends with her Ex. We also know him well.

Third friend is single and in early to mid 30s.

The fourth friend, the one who spilled the beans, has never been married, is about 57, but has been in long term relationships that did not result in marriage. She is currently in a two or three year relationship and has been happy in it. She is very much against cheating, so I am surprised wife told her, but she was probably the closest friend out of the four, more like a sister.

Also, the fourth friend (one who spilled beans, and was like her sister) told her boyfriend immediately. I know this because I spoke with both of them on the phone after I received the video and discussed wife's behavior, and asked many follow up questions as to any more incidents that she knew of. She did not know of any other, including the first one (bartender).

[This message edited by innoculatdimmunity at 6:36 PM, Thursday, August 14th]

From my perspective, everything she has told you is manipulation. Why do I think this? Her bragging and sending pics to her "friends"
She feels bad she got caught, or more specifically, she had one friend with an ounce of respect for you to tell you.

Exactly, there’s no true remorse here. She is doing damage control because she got caught and doesn’t want her life blown up. She was proud of herself, hard to think that has now changed to remorse. I hope you can figure it out and reconcile if that’s what you want but it won’t be easy and trusting her will be extremely difficult.

Thanks for the update. If she has been a long term functioning alcoholic, then giving it up is a big step forward. I dont know if she is remorseful or not, but you will be on an emotional rollercoaster and you need to take care of you. Time is your ally. Watch her actions and if she falls back into old pattrrns. Your feelings about R can change over time. Good luck.

I really want to make it work and have some of what we used at the beginning of our relationship

That’s your choice to make alone of course, but can you tell us *why* you’ve made this decision almost immediately? I would urge you to read the Reconciliation forum here, where you will soon see that R is a LIFETIME effort. It’s categorically not "some accomplish full healing in R in one year", as one "guide" here says.

Knowing what you know now, namely that she’s perfectly capable of cheating on her husband multiple times, with multiple men, and then bragging about it to her friends, if you had just met this woman, would you seriously want to marry her?

SO many betrayed want to instantly jump into R out of some form of FEAR. Fear they can’t do better. Fear a D will cost them too much. Fear their kids will be forever messed up if they don’t stay.

Please don’t R out of fear. She’s (rightly) afraid NOW she’ll be divorced and has started tap-dancing for her life (certainly her lifestyle). Prospects for a D’d single mom who’s a known serial cheater are let’s just say…. not good. Only YEARS of her being willing to crawl over broken glass is any kind of indication she just might be one of the VERY FEW who both betray their spouse in the worst way AND truly change their core character. Yes, it has happened. And yes, pulling that off is simply uncommon.

I just don’t want you to be like so many who years/decades later say "oh how I should have left at d-day".

Honey, I'm sorry but you got a whole lot of hopium here. I have to be honest. She's lying to you and manipulating you, I would bet cash money on that. Any woman who would be sending naked pictures of some rando she screwed to her friends is not remotely sorry about doing this and she didn't do it because she was drinking. THIS IS WHAT SHE DOES. And I think she's been doing it a lot longer than you think. And I think she's gonna do it again once she feels safe - that you are under control and trusting again. I've known a lot of women in my day, including drunks - most of my family are drunks - both of my parents were drunks - and they would never do anything like this. Sending pics of your naked conquests and bragging to your girlfriends is a thing a practiced cheater does, in my opinion. It's a competitive GAME.

I have to ask....is this relationship acceptable to you? You never knew she was capable of this before and without the friend blowing it on her...you probably would never have found out. She's a good liar. How will you know in the future what she's doing? You just don't want to believe this for....whatever reason. Hopium we call it.

I would strongly suggest, if you are not already doing this, that you go to a counselor who deals in infidelity and trauma issues because I don't think you are seeing this clearly. You don't want to see it. That's your right but I think you're not seeing this out of a position of fear, and you don't want things to change, and you're rug sweeping and blaming it on the booze. It's not the booze. If you don't like how I say this, I'm sorry, I really do want what's best for you and...this ain't it. Go put the same thing out on other forums and see what responses you get.

That would be my strongest advice to you - do NOT trust this woman and go get some solid and continuing individual counseling on this issue. You need to know your own needs, your own lines in the sand, and how you can ever verify that she is being honest with you.

Don't be afraid to come back. Hopium is perhaps the most common substance in the universe especially among the faithful.

Also....don't be too quick to trust the friends either. If she felt confident enough to send this shit to some friends, she's pretty sure of how they would take it. My guess is the friend who told on her....was jealous or competitive. I don't think your wife knows a lot of "virtuous" women. My guess would be the opposite and I would suspect any of them of lying too. Liars and cheats hang out with other liars and cheats and they all cover for each other. You'd be surprised.

This might be nothing, or it might be something. In relation to the events, "She swears she used protection both times". The issue with that is who provided the protection. Were the barman and the 24 year-old walking around with condoms in their pockets in the hope of getting lucky, or was the protection provided by your wife? I apologize for asking such an indelicate question, but if it is the latter, the whole "it wasn't planned, it just happened" argument collapses. If a married woman travels packing protection, a specific encounter may not have been 'planned', but the opportunity for it was prepared for.

On a different angle, several years ago I was told that we do not forgive an action, we forgive a person. There are many elements in this story that could be contributing factors to why your wife did what she did that, while they are rejected as being any kind of excuse, do provide insight into why she did what she did when she was away from you and the family. The fact that she cleaned up her act before you knew about the encounters suggests that she knew what she did was wrong, and that she wanted to be better than that. Whether there was some mental/emotional alarm bell that rang when she cheated on you twice as her Mom cheated on her Dad twice is something the counselor will have to unravel.

You know your wife better than any of us, and while you were hit blindsided by infidelity, you are wise to that now, and you can evaluate her actions in terms of a true desire to change and become a more secure life partner. People are capable of change, and while we should guard against self-delusion, we should also not blind ourselves to the potential of a person cleaning their act up. Stay vigilant/hyper-vigilant, but balance that against the possibility that your wife genuinely wants to be a better person. We can all mess up, disgrace ourselves, let ourselves down, but we can also accept that and decide that we can be better. That can happen for anyone, and it may be what is happening with your wife. I would not suggest that is 100% definitely what is happening, but if you want to reconcile, you need to allow for the possibility. As is so often said in this forum, listen to her actions, not her words.

Listen closely to lyrics of No Matter What by Badfinger. I feel you're living this situation!

Peace

"Were the barman and the 24 year-old walking around with condoms in their pockets in the hope of getting lucky?"

Hooking up with out of town visitors is probably a common thing in the bar hotel world. They were prepared. It ain't their first rodeo. There is no guarantee that they used it protection however.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 11:31 PM, Sunday, August 17th]

Hooking up with out of town visitors is probably a common thing in the bar hotel world. They were prepared. It ain't their first rodeo. There is no guarantee that they used it protection however.

Sadly, I am sure you are right. It is wise/mandatory for the resident 'hunters' to be prepared. It must be like a conveyor belt in a factory for selfish, amoral opportunists. The point in my post was really aimed at making sure that the WW in this scenario was not packing protection, but it is far more likely that the various fishermen involved took care of that as you say.

Time and again, in story after story after story, infidelity boils down to cheaters exchanging real gold for fool's gold, and damaging something genuine and precious for something fake, not just for themselves, but for the other people who thought they had something special. They damage the best thing that has happened to them for a big nothing.

[This message edited by M1965 at 9:43 AM, Monday, August 18th]