SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Appreciate any advice from the group here as I am impatiently waiting on having a confrontation conversation.

(apologize if this is wrong thread, lurker for a while and would like some feedback on this scenario)

Scenario:

Found one email of evidence of breaking 'no contact' and want to confront around this.

She lied about the circumstance around the email, really for no reason. Email was a very brief interaction which ended with 'I will contact you later'. The lie and the interaction hit me hard. She had been following the cheater handbook pretty well to the letter during the affair so I suppose this is not unexpected.

I had some very compelling evidence for d-day, now she knows how to hide things better. It is killing me to sit on this but I don't want to screw things up either if I should do more. Not sure what 'more' is? Do I need to get a VAR, PI or poly test?

I see this as an opportunity to set boundaries. I plan to formally do this when I confront her with breaking 'no contact'. I tried to set my boundaries in a letter but really just outlined issues and did not document consequences. I have been having a constant internal battle over just ending things and trying to reconcile. Its more divorce avoidance and rug sweeping now but at same time we seem to be in better place. We have 3 kids, one is 4 years old so I am concerned about the impact to them with a divorce.

Background:

7 months since d-day (happened over a 2 week period). There was a nearly 12 month long physical affair, after some lengthy emotional affair. Worked together for couple years on same project and landed in same office after and fireworks ensued. They work together on same floor to this day :-0

She is pretty transparent about activities outside of working hours since d-day. No 'signs' of cheating since d-day. We are working through love languages very slowly, go to church, practice yoga, eat well etc. Mostly things are good, almost afraid to fight over things, or you could see we are more patient and understanding with each others perspective. Financial stress is solved for now due to sale of investment which was a fairly significant issue.

There was one admission of contact over Christmas, so almost 2 months after d-day. Nothing since. Had a feeling at times, since that incident that 'no contact' wasn't being fully respected. Right from the get go it was stated there would be 'hi' – 'bye' interaction in lunch room etc. This is never mentioned when it happens.

I did state in several conversations that working on same floor is absolute 'worst case' scenario and need to get another job. She had just taken a new role, so it was a difficult prospect to change again, but has been looking throughout and applied for a few. One just the other day.

I hope that you laid out the consequences of breaking NC when NC was first established. If you did then you must follow the consequences previously established. Don't lay out consequences or draw lines in the sand unless you are willing to back them up.

If the AP is married, contact his spouse ASAP prior to having this conversation with your WW. Stay calm and rational while you discuss this with your WW. I advise recording the conversation as well to protect yourself against unfounded domestic abuse charges.

Your conversation should go something like this.

You: “I know you have been breaking NC with ‘Asshole’ and are aware of the consequences for doing so. That makes me feel the vesting in our recovery is one-sided and I am unwilling to live in a marriage containing three people.”

WW: “I DID NOT BREAK NC, you are paranoid, yada, yada, yada”

You: “You and I both know that is not true and continuing the lie is not helpful.”

WW: “ yada, yada, yada…accuses you of spying or monitoring her”

You: “So, to reaffirm your commitment to our marriage, I need you to …(I suggest a polygraph) and (new NC letter laying out firm consequences for breaking NC)”

Don't defend, don't accuse, just state the facts and stay on the subject of NC. Ignore comments and DO NOT REACT when she accuses you of being paranoid, spying, etc.

What ever you do, stay calm. If you can't stay calm, walk away...the conversation can wait another day.

Good Luck

I'm afraid, if you have irrefutable proof, it'd be over.

I'm not her baby-sitter, and won't be lied to again. Not once.

I told my WW, if she so much as sees him driving down the highway in the opposite direction, I better find out about from her before I find out any other way, or we are done. As in filing for divorce, do not pass go, do not collect shit.

I will not spend the rest of life with someone that has proven again that I can't trust.

NC means.... NC.

Skip the poly as it's too dramatic and can make you look desperate. The VAR may be a good idea.

Regardless of how she may handle it, I suggest being very adult and confidant about it. Just tell her. You know they are still in contact and plan on staying so.

I would further say that it's OK. She had a choice to make and it isn't you. A shame she feels the need to be a lying sneak about it but some people just are.

Accordingly, you will get the D rolling. And absolutely no further discussion required.

I agree with twisted. I wouldn't talk to her anymore. I would file and have her served.

I wouldn't answer her calls or nothing. When I came home I would sleep in a different room. I would start separating the finances and drawing up a custodial arrangement with myself as being the custodial parent.

You have to be willing to throw the marriage away in order to save it. You didn't start with that so now she is helping you do it except she is not interested in the saving part.

I am sorry your going through this. It sucks but your going to have to stand up for yourself and your kids if you ever want to have any kind of a decent life again.

First things first: if she does not leave her job she's going to keep fucking him. Period. Demand that she leave her job or leave the marriage.

Let me ask with with all due respect - how does hitting your head against the fence post over and over again help at all?

You've already confronted her. Already given her chances. More than one. I mean... you need to know when to call it

As long as they continue to see each other at work every day they are still in the A. You need to demand that end immediately or file.

Time to stop hoping and wishing. Time to start doing.

Thanks for the replies. I am digesting the feedback and will just clarify a point or two.

The AP is single, divorced I believe. Perhaps multiple divorces. Don't care but think I heard about him before things escalated.

I don't have any proof of physical since the affair 'ended'. Just an email that proves she is lying and her general omission of contact.

I didn't do very well with boundaries and consequences and thought I would try that first before going directly to separation. Part of me wants to just go ahead and end it much in line with the sentiment here. Another part of me wants to give it another go for the kids and the positive signs I am seeing.

I'll share more when I get back to a computer.

Once again thanks for the feedback.

20yrsin,

I'm sorry to see you here, and to read about what your wife did to you, the marriage, and the family. I have never understood why people build something so amazing up, and then take a hammer to it by cheating, but it seems to be the way of the world.

To take a few points from your posts:

She lied about the circumstance around the email, really for no reason. Email was a very brief interaction which ended with 'I will contact you later'.

Without saying 'surrender to paranoia', I think you need to re-assess why you say she had no reason to lie about the circumstances around the email. The fact that she lied indicates that maybe there was a reason for lying. Now, it could be that she simply wants to minimise every contact with her AP to you, because it is bound to be a sore subject. Or, it was minimised for a darker reason. The point is, lying lends itself to suspicion and paranoia, which is why it is something that you have every right to take up with your wife. So it is perfectly valid to confront her about the lying and explain that there have been more than enough lies and betrayal in your relationship, and it is time for them to stop. So by all means ask her, "After everything else you have done to me and this family, why do you still think it is alright to carry on lying?"

If there is supposed to be no contact, what is up with the "I'll contact you later" thing? That is not no contact, it is ongoing contact.

I had some very compelling evidence for d-day, now she knows how to hide things better. It is killing me to sit on this but I don't want to screw things up either if I should do more.

20yrs, how is it you who is screwing anything up? Which one of you has done more harm to the marriage and family? Which one of you is continuing to do harm to them by virtue of continuing contact with the affair partner? Are you going to compensate for what your wife has done by going to the other end of the spectrum and saying nothing when you see her doing something questionable? That is not building a healthy dynamic in the relationship. IT means you compromising on boundaries and values while your wife does things that she knows full well she should not be doing. But if you let her get away with doing them, what incentive is there for her to stop?

You say you are having an internal battle over ending things or reconciling. There are thousands of people in this forum who have been at that crossroads. I know you want to try to save things for the sake of your children, and that is noble and completely commendable. When I read some of the posts here, my heart breaks when I see decent people who want to do the right thing tying themselves in knots to try and accommodate the actions of their cheating spouses, particularly where kids are involved. However, given the fact that you are preparing to confront your wife about lying, I think you should be completely honest with her and tell her that her continued lying and ongoing contact with her affair partner has pushed you to breaking point, and that it will not take much more from her to totally destroy the family. And those are the words to use: "destroy the family". You need your words to have an impact.

I would ask her bluntly: "Is that man worth destroying this family for? Because if you keep lying to me, and you continue contact with him, that is going to happen, and very, very soon, because I have reached the limit of what I am prepared to put up with. If you want to go and live with him, that's fine. Pack your things and go now. You don't have to lie about it. Go and be with him, if he's that fantastic. But if you're staying here, with me, then there's no more lying, no more hiding things, no more dumping on me. I've had enough of that. It stops here. I have had enough of you treating me so badly, and I will not put up with it any more. I deserve better, and the kids deserve better. If you cannot be the wife and mother that we need, please pack your bags and go and be with Mr. Wonderful, because all you are doing is hurting us with your deceit."

The point is, if you are on the verge of calling it quits, what is there to lose by having frank and make-or-break discussions with your wife? Present her with her options: you and the kids, or the other man. Let her choose. It will be on her head. One day, she is going to have to look her children in the eye and explain what she did, and why she did it.

'I will contact you later'.

If she is working with him, then any personal email contact would be the tip of the iceberg, right? She could talk to him at least several times during the day without you ever knowing it, so the fact that she had to contact him via personal email where you could see it really looks bad.

She is pretty transparent about activities outside of working hours

Why are you OK with her still working with him? Or has she refused to leave the job?

She had a very deep emotional and physical relationship with another man, and now she has contacted, and she lied about it.

I had some very compelling evidence for d-day, now she knows how to hide things better.

She lied about the circumstance around the e

mail

Now, are you so arrogant that you think you can teach her that lying is wrong? If she doesn't know the basic fundamental that lying is wrong, she is at the moment not worth continuing. You cannot fix her. By enabling her, and remaining silent in your fear, you cause your worst fears to come true.

Why can't she tell you the truth? What can't you tell her the truth (you know she is lying about contact with other man)? What good is "We are working through love languages very slowly, go to church, practice yoga, eat well etc."? Despite church (assuming "lying" is a "sin" in your church?) and all the other stuff, she still lies.

Sometimes I think fear of hurting the kids in a divorce is the number one reason that there is a divorce to hurt the kids. Meaning the fear let's her continue and get bolder, and harden her position that she is entitled to behave that way. Apparently, only you are worried about the kids, she is not worried, she lies to you knowing damn well it could break up her marriage.

You have "no signs" and "no proof" of cheating. Put the VAR in her car for a week, see what's there. Then if there is anything found, get a PI and get the pictures so you can use it.

did not document consequences.

I think she knows what the consequences are. If you cheat, I think everyone knows that divorce is a possibility. What consequences do you want to give her?

I tried to set my boundaries in a letter but really just outlined issues and did not document consequences.

If you confront now both you and your wife will use the above as an excuse to avoid imposing consequences. You will tell yourself that it’s not fair to impose X because it was never spelled out.

You will tell her what the consequences will be next time and give her another chance. Then she will know that her email isn’t secure.

Put a VAR in her car or wherever. Never tell her about the email. You want her to keep using it. Just tell her that you’re suspicious, have a gut feeling etc.

Let her deny and see who she talks to. It may be the OM or a friend. You may hear innocent stuff and that she values her marriage. Or you may hear that she’s fooling around.

[This message edited by Michigan at 12:00 AM, June 3rd (Saturday)]

Thanks MI1965, your approach makes sense to me. Few clarifying points.

20yrs, how is it you who is screwing anything up? Which one of you has done more harm to the marriage and family? Which one of you is continuing to do harm to them by virtue of continuing contact with the affair partner? Are you going to compensate for what your wife has done by going to the other end of the spectrum and saying nothing when you see her doing something questionable? ... But if you let her get away with doing them, what incentive is there for her to stop?

I'm not worried about screwing things up in the relationship/ marriage. I know its in trouble :-). It was more a question of should i be collecting anymore evidence before confronting or good to go now with what I have. I think most seem to believe this is enough.

The email story is a bit of a weird one. And I totally agree they could be communicating via work email all the time. I do have the password but she is obviously carefully permanently deleting everything. Unfortunately I revealed the dangers of her 'delete' folder during d-day.

In this case we were both working from home and she could not login. So she sent a personal email to the AP to check for her password. It was a very quick exchange with few words and it ended with 'i'll try to contact you later'.

The lie was stupid as she told the support desk guy she was sure the password was right as she had 'somebody' check it. Then after she joked with me that she lied to the support guy, didn't need anyone to check the password because she had just changed it.

Afterwards I found the email. Thats what I mean it was a pointless lie on her part.

However I guess we could say it was meaningful in the fact she wanted to hide what had happened. Even though I had no way of knowing.

This does flag that the lying habit is still there. That is a big concern and obviously hiding the fact they are talking.

I would ask her bluntly: "Is that man worth destroying this family for? Because if you keep lying to me, and you continue contact with him, that is going to happen, and very, very soon, because I have reached the limit of what I am prepared to put up with. If you want to go and live with him, that's fine. Pack your things and go now. You don't have to lie about it. Go and be with him, if he's that fantastic. But if you're staying here, with me, then there's no more lying, no more hiding things, no more dumping on me. I've had enough of that. It stops here. I have had enough of you treating me so badly, and I will not put up with it any more. I deserve better, and the kids deserve better. If you cannot be the wife and mother that we need, please pack your bags and go and be with Mr. Wonderful, because all you are doing is hurting us with your deceit."

I do like the approach here. It frames up the conversation in my head that I have been imagining having.

I thought about the boundaries I would set if she doesn't run off after the ultimatum.

- no contact ( not sure how to enforce given situation, see next point below which might help)

- share this issue with family and key friends for support (at this point i believe i am the only one who knows about this, possible some co-workers suspect but not sure on that. I am tired of carrying the 'secret')

- no more secrets, disclose whole story (have most of it but haven't really gone through some of the shittiest parts. At least i dont think she gets how terrible it was for me. She is very regretful, not sure how remorseful.)

- get counselling for your lying habit, abiltiy to compartmentalize and disrespecting your marriage and risking your kids family unit

Thanks wk55hn for the suggestions on the VAR. This is the big question for me. Should I'fact find' any further or just call her out.

Why are you OK with her still working with him? Or has she refused to leave the job?

I am not ok for her to work with him. I have told her it is the worst case scenario and something needs to be done. She just landed a new position before d-day. She is applying for jobs but needed to stay there for 6 months minimum or it doesn't look good. Its a good career job. I had thought at times that after 6 months if she wasn't out of there i should just end things.

She has applied for a few positions and one is in flight right now that will get her out of the city. There is some effort there and a lot of good, thoughtful interaction with me which makes this lying frustrating and hard to accept.

I have been of two minds since d-day on this, like a lot of people I guess. From day to day I am thinking fuck this. Its not worth it to the opposite spectrum where I believe reconciliation is worth it.

This cheating stuff and everything about it, A to Z, from starting to getting caught to reconciling or divorcing, is very predictable. It's like watching a sport. I see you are in Canada, so let's say hockey. There are a very limited bunch of behaviors in a hockey game. They all wear the same uniforms. There are a relatively small number of strategies, techniques, actions and reactions, etc. They use pucks, not soccer balls. When you see a bunch of people playing it, you know immediately "That is hockey." You don't say, "I wonder what the heck those people are doing?"

So cheating is like that. Limited strategies, limited techniques, same stuff over and over. Read one thread after another after another. The cheaters have very limited stuff they are doing, the betrayeds likewise have very limited stuff they are doing. None of them are little special unique snowflakes, none of them are different in how they cheat or how they move past it. They are unique special people, but their behaviors are not.

My first point is about your wife still working with the other man, and the importance you place on your kids. Most of us here, like 95%, put a very high importance on our kids. There's one guy who isn't doing anything because his daughter is getting married in two weeks and he doesn't want to ruin the wedding. So parents are still very concerned of their kids even when their kids are adults.

I am always flabbergasted that in one sentence the betrayed states that he is extremely worried about breaking up because of the kids, and then in the next sentence say it is important for the cheating wife to stay in her job with the affair partner or else it won't look good on her resume or we need the money or some such. The other thing the betrays sometimes say is "I don't have money to get a PI." Or the betrayeds "hedge their bets." They want to reconcile but don't go all out, holding back conflicting actions that might help in a possible divorce.

I am no expert, and I am not smart, but I have read a lot and I know what I know. I know what I have read. Hedging bets doesn't work. Discussing and communicating boundaries doesn't work (these are self evident, like lying, and if you have to communicate that, there is no point in even trying).

If you want to save the marriage, NUMBER ONE, NUMERO UNO, TOP TASK, is ENDING THE AFFAIR. That is the very first thing that needs to happen to stay married. That means your wife has to choose to do that. She has to choose your marriage over her job. She poisoned the well at the job, she pooped where she ate, I'm sorry she messed that up on herself, but she did. I told my wife, about having to end associations with groups she was in, ones that she loved and was part of well before the affair started, you should have considered that before you cheated within those groups. You can stay in them if you want, that is your right, and I cannot control you, but I also have rights, and I also have control of ME, and I can choose what is acceptable and not acceptable in my marriage. Having sex and saying "I love you" to another man is unacceptable to me, and for me to stay with you after that, the GIFT that I am giving you, and you are going to just THUMB YOUR NOSE at me by still staying with him, so not only did you have sex and say "I love you," but you are so disrespectful that you will stay in contact with him (FOR SEVEN MONTHS)? NO, not for me. I choose valuing myself even if you do not.

So ending the affair is number one. And you haven't gotten to that step. You think you had it, but then you found an "I'll talk to you later" email and she lied about it. So find out if the affair is happening (VAR her car for a week).

Step 2 in reconciling is complete honesty. I see she has held back details you asked for. Honesty leads to trust. Cheating has destroyed trust. She lied and kept secrets. Other man knows all the details. But you, her husband, are not allowed to have those details. So she is confiding those details between her and him, and not you. Thus, you are on the outside. Why not tell you the full details? Well, I know she might not want to hurt you. Also, she may not want to tell you the truth because it might be so bad that you'll be unable to be happy if you stay, so you'd have to leave her. Also, she might not want to let you know her depths of immorality. Possibly all of them. Regardless, this is a bond of secrecy between her and her boyfriend, that excludes you. That causes space in intimacy with you.

So I don't get it, her being with the job, and you still waiting understandingly.

My observation, understanding is for suckers who will be taken advantage of over and over again in the liar's game of cheating. And please don't ever, ever, EVER take my word for it, read the threads here. And, don't make the mistake that you and your wife are "different." Every 100th thread someone actually is "different," but your stuff is not.

I think she's cheating. I could be wrong, but anytime a cheater and their affair partner is in contact, I have about a 75-90% chance of being right on them still cheating, especially when the betrayed posts here saying I caught her in a lie. You called it a lie for "no reason." There is no such thing - she lies for a reason.

If you do give her "boundaries," make one of them NEVER DELETE - not even browsing history. And no browsing in the "private" mode.

Do you ever check her browsing history? Does she delete her browsing history? What would I expect in my wife's browsing history? At your wife's point, maybe nothing. Maybe questions about husband's who have been cheated on, if they ever forgive? Or does the marriage ever go back to where it was? Those were the "remorseful" searches. Bad news if you find searches on "how can I hide my email messages?" Or marrying the one you cheated on. Or secret apps. You get the idea. Also, bad news if there are no searches.

Number 3 to reconcile is her staying consistently honest and trustworthy, in word and deed. Actions. And Words. Consistently. Over a long period of time.

As one sister told her brother, who was a betrayed husband, about his cheating wife, "How long has she been walking all over you?"

Let's all just state the obvious - the affair never ended.

This isn't a court of law. You don't need any more proof. Stand up for yourself and your family.

20yrs,

You say...

- no contact ( not sure how to enforce given situation, see next point below which might help)

- share this issue with family and key friends for support (at this point i believe i am the only one who knows about this, possible some co-workers suspect but not sure on that. I am tired of carrying the 'secret')

- no more secrets, disclose whole story (have most of it but haven't really gone through some of the shittiest parts. At least i dont think she gets how terrible it was for me. She is very regretful, not sure how remorseful.)

- get counselling for your lying habit, abiltiy to compartmentalize and disrespecting your marriage and risking your kids family unit

...And wk55hn says...

This cheating stuff and everything about it, A to Z, from starting to getting caught to reconciling or divorcing, is very predictable...There are a very limited bunch of behaviors...There are a relatively small number of strategies, techniques, actions and reactions, etc.

In light of both statements, it is a good thing that you have made a list of the available options that you want/need to turn the situation around.

no contact (not sure how to enforce given situation, see next point below which might help)

In the real world, no contact is an act of faith. Unfortunately, there are apps like "What's App" that enable messaging that can be hidden and deleted very easily, plus, in your case, your wife can talk face-to-face with her affair partner every day, which leaves no digital trail. Unless you can monitor your wife 24/7, there is no way to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is not in contact. The only person who can make no contact work is the cheating spouse, and they will only do that if they understand why it is so important to the person they betrayed, and why it is so essential to any chance of reconciliation. On this point, you can ask her: "Do you want me to ever trust you again, or are you going to lie to me until it destroys everything? It is your choice. Whether this marriage and family continues or crashes and burns is entirely down to what you do. So think very carefully about what you are doing when you lie and continue your relationship with that man." See how she responds to that, and you need to get some explicit commitments from her about ending contact. Get an acknowledgement from her that she truly understands you will not tolerate the continuation of the present situation, and that if she doesn't end it, you will.

get counselling for your lying habit, abiltiy to compartmentalize and disrespecting your marriage and risking your kids family unit

She should be doing that now. Have you considered marriage counselling sessions for both of you? I know some people here say that they are a waste of time if a cheating relationship is ongoing, but the level of the relationship in unknown at the moment. Yes, it could still be full-on, or it may have toned down after discovery. But either way, I think making her sit in a room with you and a counsellor and talk through what she has done, in an atmosphere where you can explain in detail how she has hurt you and pushed the family to the edge of destruction, could be a way of making her actions more 'real' to her, and of adding to the pressure to end the cheating relationship, whatever level it is at. What you are looking for is turning her head around and getting her to see the affair as a bad and toxic thing that she needs to finish and leave behind.

As part of that process, I think it is definitely time for another of your options:

no more secrets, disclose whole story (have most of it but haven't really gone through some of the shittiest parts. At least i dont think she gets how terrible it was for me. She is very regretful, not sure how remorseful.)

Get her to write out a full and detailed timeline of the affair. Explain that you need it, because there has been too much lying, hiding, minimising, and half-truths, and that if you are ever going to get any level of trust back, she has to stop the lies. See how she responds to this, and how complete the timeline seems.

share this issue with family and key friends for support (at this point i believe i am the only one who knows about this, possible some co-workers suspect but not sure on that. I am tired of carrying the 'secret')

I think you should do this if it seems like she is continuing contact with the OM, but only AFTER she has produced the timeline for you. If you expose before she spills the beans to you, she has no incentive to say anything more about the affair, because everyone will know. It will actually be in her interest to hide as much as possible, as she she will be minimising like crazy to everyone around her. Exposure is definitely a tool in your arsenal, but it is a question of being strategic about when you use it.

If you do reach the point of exposing, one thing I would do is tell her parents what she has done; how she has pushed the marriage close to destruction, and - most importantly - that she is still in touch with the OM and still lying to you. Do not warn her that you are going to 'expose'; let it come as a surprise, out of the blue, just as her affair came to you. The point is, affairs flourish undercover, in the shadows, behind closed doors. Once the secret is out, the wayward spouse cannot pretend to be something they are not, it puts considerably more pressure on the once-secret relationship that they maintained. And it gives them a whole group of people that they need to give proof to that the affair is over, not just the betrayed spouse. She may be able to lie to you, but how many more significant people in her life can she bullsh*t before the reality of what she is doing hits her?

If, after exposure, she still continues contact, and is still working at that place, you have the option of nuking the affair by exposing it to their HR. HR is unlikely to take a positive view of a year-long affair conducted on work time. There are obviously financial considerations with that, which are a valid factor, but you should not worry about damaging her career or reputation because, as you know, she wasn't worried about it for a whole year.

Whether or not you want to mention this option to her before you do it is up to you. If you do, it could have the effect of her telling the OM that they cannot be in touch because they will both get canned at work, which would be positive as far as ending communication goes. However, it may just force them further underground. Given all the potential they have to communicate face-to-face, and via apps that leave little trace, it may be better to give your wife the impression that she can (and must) tell you about contact, and that you understand a certain amount is unavoidable while they are still in the same office. And you then decide what is acceptable and unacceptable, and if anything goes beyond the pale (in your view), you drop the proverbial dime and inform HR. Do not tell your wife before you do it; let it come as a surprise to her and the OM. If she tries to make you out as the bad guy for doing that, you can respond: "Have you been open and honest with me and the kids? No? Well, what goes around comes around. This was not done for revenge or punishment, it was done to end a relationship that will destroy everything if it continues. I don't know what is going on in your head, but there are three kids who need a stable family to grow up in, and I am doing my damnedest to protect that, while you do your damnedest to endanger it".

I think your options are all good as tools to fight the affair and the damage it has done, and can still do. The key to it is the order in which you enact them. In what I have written, I have tried to put them in an order of escalation, with movement upwards to each level depending on your wife's response to the previous action you have taken.

To kick things off, what you could say to your wife is something along the lines of:

"I know you did not have the affair to hurt me, but it has hurt me. I know that you did not have the affair to destroy the family the kids are growing up in, but right now that is very close to happening. I am really struggling with all this. I want to believe that you are sorry for what you have done, and that you want to rebuild our marriage and repair the family. If that is the case, there are some things I need you to do. Without you doing them, I am not sure I can continue with this. It is up to you whether we move forwards, or we finish it and go our separate ways. So, are you prepared to work with me to try and save the marriage and the family, or do we end it now?"

Your wife's options are really very limited. She may have been in the famous 'fog' that people go into when they embark on affairs, but the reality of it is that the OM is unlikely to marry her and ride off into the sunset with her, so she faces being a single mother, working, and trying to raise three kids without a husband. Along with all the other significant people in her life knowing what she did to wreck the marriage. How attractive is that as a game-plan for the future? You may want to lay that one on her and let her think about it, because it could become her reality faster than she thinks. She needs to be jolted out of whatever is left of the fantasy bubble that sustained the affair, and to understand what her daily life could easily become.

I wish you well with this. You have had a horrible thing foisted on you, but there is potential for the marriage to recover if your wife commits to doing everything she can to support that. Without her full support and commitment, it cannot happen, and you need to make her understand that.

Affair never stoped.

Time to look for a good divorce lawyer

it is a good thing that you have made a list of the available options that you want/need to turn the situation around.

Thanks again for the thoughtful response mi1965. Much to consider from your posts especially in how to frame up the ask.

One thing I forgot to mention in terms of boundaries was the 'no contact ' letter. This has not been written and thought it would be good to raise this and get it done. Although I don't expect to get much from a VAR in the car as she doesn't talk much on phones, especially when driving think I will get one and give it a go. This is delaying the talk which is going to bother me but may also yield a better sense of where things stand with AP.

It really is unbelievable considering how engaged she is with me and the family and making plans for our future that I am going down this path.

On the other hand having the opportunity to see the AP on a daily basis I suppose I shouldn't be.

What you expect in the VAR, or hope not, is they sit in the car at lunch, before work, after work, or during a break. Car is a safe haven for cheaters, even more than the workplace itself. Private. They expect you to hack her phone, not put a VAR under the seat. Sometimes you catch them confiding in one of their toxic enablers.

It really is unbelievable considering how engaged she is with me and the family and making plans for our future that I am going down this path.

I'm not sure what that means - you just caught her lying about contact, so she doesn't seem engaged at all to me. I have seen so many sincere fakers like her, I guess it just seems obvious to me. After 20 years in, you don't see her as basically a liar. All I see is lying.

the 'no contact ' letter. This has not been written and thought it would be good to raise this and get it done.

The "no contact" letter is somewhat meaningless for actual no contact. There are many, many cheaters who send a "no contact" text or message or even verbally, then later on laugh with the affair partner about how stern it was worded, while it was only done because the betrayed demanded it.

I do like sending the "no contact" letter, though, because, believe it or not, there are many cheaters who will balk at it, even though they could just send it and later tell the affair partner to ignore it, it's just my betrayed spouse pushing me. Many won't send it, or at least push back on it. So I like sending it just because you can kind of take your wife's "temperature" about how she feels about the affair partner compared to you and your marriage.

The second reason I like the "no contact" letter is because it can be used to put teeth into consequences for the affair partner if the affair partner does not accede to the request. I like putting into the no contact letter something like "I want to formally tell you to never contact me again (tough to say this if she works with him still, and actually CALLS HIM for help on passwords and says "I'll call you later."). I love my husband, who is the love of my life, and I choose him over you. If you contact me again, I will consider it harassment and will further whatever employment and legal actions as I deem necessary." I think it works as a written registered letter to the other man. Even better, if it comes from an attorney on your wife's behalf. In your wife's case, I guess the letter would have to say no contact other than as required business.