20yrs,
Well, the debate goes on, and the suggestions come thick and fast. I think Sharkman makes a devastatingly good point when he says:
“It's not on you to "convince" her of anything. She knows very well exactly what she did...”
That hits on a very basic thing here, about the whole dynamic that currently exists. That you have to justify or find logical reasons for what you want or need her to do. When I think about it, the opposite should be true; she should be doing whatever you need her to do, without arguing about it.
Do you remember the movie “Goodfellas”? There’s a classic scene where Henry Hill is explaining the mob’s approach to collecting payment (not the exact script, but along these lines):
“You had a bad week? F*ck you, pay me. The IRS is auditing you and you ran out of heart pills? F*ck you, pay me. Your kids are sick and your dog ran away? F*ck you, pay me”.
Brutal, but effective. The point is, it sticks to its priorities, and has no time for excuses. To take an example:
“stevesn
I was wondering, what was the reason she gave for saying she would contact him later?
I still haven't asked or really revealed I found this email. My confrontation was just more about the contact and day to day conversation which she admitted to and felt was harmless.”
To channel Henry Hill, your approach to this could be:
“You want to continue contact with the man who did so much damage to this marriage and the stability of our children’s family and home for more than a year? I don’t appreciate that, and I need you to stop. Do it because I need you to do it, and because I have asked you to do it. You think continuing to bring that man into all of our lives on a daily basis is harmless? I don’t. He’s a homewrecker, and continued involvement with him can still ruin the future for you, me, and the kids. So I need you to stop, because I have asked you to stop. If you care about me, you will do it for me. If you care about him, you will carry on talking to him.”
If she starts using the same ‘harmless’ arguments, do not give them any credence. You can cut them short with something along the lines of:
“This is not a debate. It is about a choice. Your choice. What is more important to you? Remaining in contact with your boyfriend, or doing what your husband needs you to do?”
I realise that approach may seem crude or confrontational, but what it is really doing is putting your needs front and center, in a way that she can’t misinterpret or debate. The moral is, you don’t enter into a debate about justification, because justification has no place in the arena. If you need something done, or not done, that is good enough. You are the wronged party here, she is the transgressor. If she is truly sorry, and truly committed to fixing things, what is there to debate?
And…
“Agreed to counselling, but not yet started. She has never really understood the need for it.”
There is nothing to “understand”. That is bullshit avoidance of taking responsibility. She probably doesn’t want to do it because it will shine the spotlight firmly on her, and make her explain herself. Effectively, going to counselling would be accepting/admitting that what she did was messed up, and needs examining and fixing, which she does not seem to think is the case. However, if you channel Henry Hill, the reason is: “You do it because I need you to do it.” No debates, no justification, no searching the internet for articles that prove the merits of counselling. The reason is, “I need you to do it. So please do it”.
Of course, there’s a ton of reasons for doing it, and a simple counter-argument to the “understand” issue is, “And I don’t understand why you refuse to do it. Can you explain the benefits of not doing something that can help get to the root of why and how you were able to lie to me and the kids for a year and a half, and establish a complete second relationship outside your marriage and family? I would say that figuring that out is fundamental to why we’re in the place we’re in now, and by getting to the root of those things, maybe we can prevent this from happening to us again.”
Which is, in its way, justification, but it throws the onus onto her to justify her position.
“I have drafted a big email touching on this lie, counselling, details and working through 'not just friends'. I haven't sent it yet as I am still sorting through the messaging. Might be too much in one shot to be effective. That was the problem with the letter I wrote her. She has focused on applying for jobs but not really addressed other things.”
I think you are right that maybe these things need to be broken up into manageable chunks, which make avoidance harder to hide. You could write a series of letters, addressing each element, or a couple of elements, at a time. If some of what we say here is useful, by all means incorporate it.
I also think your wife is avoiding responsibility repeatedly. If she really wants to save the marriage, she needs to get off her behind and focus her energy on doing positive things, not arguing about the harmlessness of continued contact, or claiming a lack of comprehension when it comes to the need for counselling.
It is good that she is looking for other jobs, for so many reasons, but that is not the be all and end all of what needs to be done. And the main driver is WHAT YOU NEED TO BE DONE. What your gut needs to be done. What your hurting heart needs to be done. Not what she thinks is appropriate, not what she “understands”, not what she considers harmful or harmless.
It would be counter-productive to say this, but I know I would feel like responding, “Darling, it is precisely because of what you consider harmless and appropriate that we are in this position, isn’t it? Would you concede that perhaps you need to spend some time re-considering your boundaries and what behaviours are, and are not, appropriate for a married woman with two children and a husband who all love her?”
These points can be made more artfully in a letter, and with a touch less Joe Pesci in their delivery, but I think they are sound, unarguable points all the same.
She has no room for complacency here, because if it was not for your love for her, and your desire to hold the family together, she could be in the middle of a bitter divorce case, with all of your friends and relatives on both sides aware of her actions, and her and OM’s behinds still bearing the boot prints of the HR director who ejected them from the premises after you forwarded a dossier of your evidence to him (or her).
She really does not know how lucky she is that she is still married to you.
Sending strength to you from Team 20yrs here on the forum!
[This message edited by M1965 at 4:33 PM, June 13th (Tuesday)]