SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

WW has been getting very cross that I have been telling everyone that she had an affair. She still thinks she did not. I haven't told anyone that. I have told a very small number of close friends and family that she got involved with another guy and that I can't forgive that. Maybe I should have been more specific.

The truth is that she was spending a lot of time with this guy after hours at work and another one too. She could have come home to me. There was no sex at this point. I was constantly rejected and so found it painful to be close to her. So this was me 'treating her like shit' which is her excuse.

So they spend a lot of time 'chatting'. I find an email she sent to one of the guys which is clearly sexually suggestive. A 'joke' apparently. Then she ends up kissing one of them for up to a minute after work. Apparently the next day he apologised although she admits that she 'made eyes at him'.

Now. I call all of that an affair and that's only what she has told me. There is probably more that she can't even admit to herself. Worse, I suspected at the time and she kept the truth from me for 2 decades and put me through hell to the point where my ability to trust is shot.

She sees an 'affair' I guess as people having sex, probably more than once. I see what she did as an affair. She chose spending time with other men over coming home to me. She ended up getting physically involved with one of them. She sent inappropriate emails to the other.

Do I just call this cheating? I know she wants to frame it as a one off event and at the same time blame it on me. Fact is I was in pain too. But I didn't cheat. Not even a thought of it.

Thoughts please.

I should also say this went on for a couple months. Her 'seeking attention' that she wasn't getting at home so it's not like they bumped into each other. She has admitted this. She was after both of them for a good while.

I want to be clear that to ME this is an affair.

However, … I can recognize (note I do not say understand) that your wife has issues accepting this as an affair.

In a sense, it’s like if she had deliberately stolen a cheap bottle of wine from a store. Yes, it’s “theft”, no denying that, but since it was cheap and the store won’t really be hurt and everyone does it and there isn’t really any punishment… and whatever other excuse she finds… then she doesn’t see this at the same moral and ethical level as stealing a car or stealing a diamond bracelet.

She has minimized and probably excused her actions to limit her liability and accountability.

This is more-or-less standard human behavior.

Also keep in mind the term Emotional Infidelity was only coined and recognized in 1985-1990. Before that “affair” and “infidelity” was only the kind that involved clear, direct sex. We even now have people that don’t think oral is infidelity…

I would strongly suggest you and your wife get a copy of Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass. This book is the layman’s bible to emotional infidelity and the go-to standard to get a WS to UNDERSTAND that hanging with OM in a bar IS infidelity, even if there was no direct sex. I think getting her to understand will get more result than you two negotiating about what is and what is not infidelity.

Have you read Not Just Friends? In it is a list of things that the author Shirley Glass asks that identifies whether or not an external relationship crosses the line:

1. Do you confide more to your friend than to your partner about how your day went?

2. Do you discuss negative feelings or intimate details about your marriage with your friend but not with your partner?

3. Are you open with your partner about the extent of your involvement with your friend?

4. Would you feel comfortable if your partner heard your conversation with your friend?

5. Would you feel comfortable if your partner saw a videotape of your meetings?

6. Are you are of sexual tensions in this friendship?

7. Do you and your friend touch differently when you're alone than in front of others?

8. Are you in love with your friend?

A score of 3 or more means you've crossed the line. (Yes answers to everything but 3,4,5 score a point. No to 3,4,5 score a point.)

If she was hiding it, was speaking about her relationship with you to him, was physical in any way, the line got crossed and it is inappropriate.

It was an affair.

If she did decide to have a sexual affair....what efforts would it take to make it happen? what actions would it require? compare that to what she has done...what she did to make this happen...not much difference, I would guess. She has chosen to go thru the motions..to get as close to cheating as possible....whats right about that?

Would she want you to see her with these men? kissing a man? would she want you to hear the conversations? Why not? Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior... Would she want her friends and family see the same as the above? why not? Why doesn't she want them to know if its nothing?

The sex is only part of it...breaking the marriage vows, choosing someone over their spouse, planning and spending time with other men instead of family, being detached emotionally....wanting someone else...thinking of them sexually. Breaking trust..all these things are destruction to a marriage...

If she doesn't agree.....then feel free to do what you want...

IT is not uncommon to learn EA are really PA....this is mininmizing...this is avoiding responsibility....this is rugsweeping...this is more disrespect layered ontop of past disrespect...She is not giving you what you need personally....to heal....the question is why....is she unable...or does she not care? ITs all about her.. How would she feel if you did the exact same thing?

You cant make her...You cant make her get it...this has to be a two party healing...

If she refuses to help heal....end it...you need to focus on you...you see her answer.

If your getting a D....these conversations shouldn't be happening...NC....it doesn't matter anymore.

MY WH never did any of the work...He denies any wrong doing.. He refuses to read. ..we never R...the marriage is the same as DDay. This doesn't fade away.

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 9:17 AM, April 5th (Thursday)]

Lawyerman, my wife did the exact same thing when I found out the first time. She started by saying she had "inappropriate conversations". Then she backpedaled to say that they didn't talk about anything inappropriate, but that it was inappropriate to talk. Then, she found some archaic article linked 4 articles deep into one I sent her on emotional infidelity that said there were X number of things required to have an emotional affair and she had X-1, so there was no affair.

All of it was rationalization and minimization in order to make herself feel better, to not have the guilt and shame, etc.

You and I both know that it was an affair. So do our wives. Mine finally accepted it and has been working double-time since the last confession to do this the right way. I pray that your wife will drop the protective defenses to see just what her damage is and is from. She has to accept what she did in order for anything to be better at all.

..I think that simply reading here at SI will give you all the definitions of affairs you'll ever need.

The broad spectrum of 'affairs' here and the devastating results leave no doubt in my mind that your wife had an affair. It is only a matter of degree.

She only kissed him, she only let him feel her tits, he only fingered her, she only sucked him off, she only let him eat her, she only let him have anal, she never loved him, she was never going to leave you, she never thought you'd find out, she only... she didn't...

She is not giving you the truth and is in total denial, and hoping you will accept her bullshit story.

The boards here are full of stories where the betrayed spouse is fed lies to minimize the extent of their affair(s).

I concur with bigger... get a copy of Not Just Friends..and make her read it!

Then see what she says...

Good luck with that..

smy

[This message edited by somanyyears at 9:08 AM, April 5th (Thursday)]

Well, I have filed anyway so in some senses it doesn't matter. It's just she is mad with me for 'misleading' people into thinking she had 'an affair'. To her I think that means sex. I have discussed the concept of EA's with her and how some might consider what she did as an affair regardless of how she classifies it. I have never lied about anything to anyone or made more of things. The lying by omission is actually far more damaging to me than the actual events (if I have the truth which I will always doubt).

So she is now going around my family and 'putting them straight'. Surprisingly, they are feeling a little uncomfortable about the whole thing.

I consider what she did to completely be an affair. However short. She was seeking attention from other men, in secret and in the end she got some. That is an affair in my book.

As I said, it doesn't really matter and she will never agree to it but I just wanted to ask others whether I was out of tune on this one.

Of course they are uncomfortable. Two people putting others in the middle of their intimacy issues is always awkward.

Stop trying to win this in the court of public opinion. There are no winners in divorce. The winning is the getting out of infidelity, and you are doing that. But you will never get everyone on your side and should not even try.

Say what you have to say; don't lie or cover for her, but don't go TMI and try to pull people in. Detach from their opinion. Detach from WW's opinion. Focus on you and your hopeful future.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:39 AM, April 5th (Thursday)]

I guess the thoughts that go through your head are where it would have gone if he had been more willing. This is all based on her 'truth' by the way. I will never know the actual truth.

So they kissed passionately and he apologised the next day. Who stopped this kiss? This encounter? Did he stop it and leave? Did she push him away? What if he had wanted to take it further right there and then? What would she have done? I think I know the answer to that.

Maybe that did happen. I don't care so much any more. We are over.

Owningit, nothing anyone says will change my course and this board is anon so I have really nothing to gain aside from my own sanity.

It's just the minimising that is hard. Like she just made a small mistake and I should stop being so silly about it all. To me it is massive.

I guess what it really is, is that she is going around telling people she didn't have an affair when I consider that she completely did. Both her parents did so I guess she is a bit touchy on that one.

As you say, I don't need to win this one. I've resolved to keep my mouth shut until the D is done and just work on me building a new life.

It was an affair, both EA and PA. Arguing the semantics or definition is silly and pointless and shows you that her head is in the wrong place. Someone ashamed and remorseful focuses on apologizing to people for their behavior. Someone who is justifying and making excuses is more concerned with flipping the definition than doing the painful introspection that is necessary--the definition of unremorseful and unsafe.

In my mind, the strongest, most authentic and content people are the ones who can stomach a true look at their faults without attempting to deflect or justify their flaws. You have to have a very strong sense of what is good about you to look honestly at what is not good about you. Your WW has not even begun that journey and appears she never will, so she will never be safe.

There is no spouse on the planet that is going to give the stamp of approval to that type of behavior on their wedding day, and your WW is well aware. It is cheating, and there are a million different ways to cheat. I am sure it's super frustrating to you to watch her do this dance of remorselessness, and I am so sorry Lawyerman. It's as hurtful as the affair itself, attempting to depict you as an overreactor because she simply does not have the self-esteem or strength of character to live authentically, facing the truth. She'd rather hurt you yet again by denying your painful reality. I've had it done to me many times, and dealing with it sent me to at least 10 extra IC sessions. (Mostly it was my mom who did this stuff, but my H has done it, too.)

It's horrible.

Mind games and manipulation.

This is when you realize you are 15 times stronger than you ever knew you were and begin to feel proud and resilient. If I can handle this crap, I can seriously handle anything.

My definition of an affair.

Anything your spouse does with another person he or she would not do in front of you.

What you do is IF people ask why you and your soon-to-be ex are divorcing you tell them that the defining factor in your decision were her infidelities.

If they ask for details you simply refuse to tell. It’s none of their business.

If they question you because your wife has told them she never cheated… well… you tell them that your wife and you have different values on when an intimacy becomes infidelity, but to YOU it’s infidelity. You then point out that this difference in opinion on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in a marriage should be seen as a clear reason for why your decision to divorce was inevitable.

Bigger I love that. Giving information without really giving details. Probably would have been a better way to describe things then the way I went about it lol. Just blurting out WH screwing ow.

Question. Do you think people perceive the words differently too?

Cheating vs affair vs infidelity? Which may lead to a difference in opinion of what they mean?

The endpoint is you have a remorseless, duplicitous woman for a wife. Is she the kind of wife you deserve or want? Those are the only questions worth merit.

I think Bigger and others are right Lawyer - to you, they simply are infidelities.

Look, she was giving him "the good stuff." And I don't mean necessarily sexually. She gave him her time, attention, chatting, smiles, eyes, jokes, kisses - basically all the good stuff people share together in a marriage.

And that was supposed to be yours. You deserved it. Not anyone else. Because you made vows together. And because you invested yourself in this relationship.

She wasn't supposed to be giving any of that to anyone else. Call it what you want, but for you it was a dealbreaker.

(And quit letting her minimize it after the fact. Mine always thought he got screwed over by me too. Boo hoo).

Chili. I find genius in all your posts. Thank you so much and thank you so much also to everyone who has offered wisdom on this thread.

It's not a battle I am fighting in public. I am not arguing with her. I have given my reasons for wanting D as infidelity essentially and other people have used the word 'affair'. I maybe messed up but maybe not. I can't control everyone.

That's her life's work. Good luck with that.

Duplicate post for some reason

[This message edited by Lawyerman at 3:44 PM, April 5th (Thursday)]