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In denial

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Stevesn posted 4/24/2018 06:47 AM

Also have you caught her on the camera talking to any of the others at work about your letter?

Donít reveal to her the camera as a source of information.

Limbo79 posted 4/24/2018 07:50 AM

I suggested a polygraph today. For me as she counter accused me again. Not directly of having an affair but possibly. This is what happens every time I bring something up she counter attacks.
I said fine I will organise a polygraph test if you would like as I researched a company that does it nearby. She immediately backed down and said it wasnít necessary. I think she knew I would ask her to take one as well.
This is what I will suggest tonight. Just to put her mind at rest we should both take one.
Dark I think your suggestion is a good one. I will meet with her then say unless she has something to say there is nothing for me to say.
And yes I would love to save my marriage but not at the cost of sanity. Iím learning to stand up not just let things slide by in my marriage. I donít normally hid from confrontation but in my marriage I let it go. No more.

DarkHoleHeart posted 4/24/2018 10:14 AM

Dark I think your suggestion is a good one. I will meet with her then say unless she has something to say there is nothing for me to say
Sorry, but you got it wrong. Get rid of "unless she has something to say". You know perfectly right that all she has to say is bullshit and gasslighting. She must be begging you to please talk to her. Read about 180.

[This message edited by DarkHoleHeart at 12:51 PM, April 24th (Tuesday)]

Stevesn posted 4/24/2018 10:32 AM

Let her know that you are prepared to end the marriage if she is not willing to tell you the full extent of her cheating. And Let her know that since she has shown that you are not the one she truly loves, she will be free to go pursue the one she does.


I still stand by this advice. I agree with DHH. Read the 180 again and then put it into practice.

Tell her you have nothing more to say to her until she shows up with a detailed timeline and then you will poly her on it.

Let her know in no uncertain terms that until that happens there will be no attempt at R and you will be taking steps to end your marriage.

You are starting to see the positive affect that taking control has on a WS. Donít let up.

You have nothing to lose at this point. Your M has already been changed by her forever.

Limbo79 posted 4/24/2018 11:52 AM

I think I get it really. I donít really have anything to lose as far as my marriage goes itís been over for years. I have to let go of it, not to save it but to move forward. I will tell her tonight that itís over.
I wonít let her know the details, no need for that.

I have to follow my gut instinct, it has been right so far I just ignored it.
Cut her loose. Iíve been on my own anyway for years really as far as my marriage goes. Iíve got 3 great kids. Going to carry on getting in shape thatís all that matters. Feels great getting back in the gym actually.
Listening to some good Chris Stapleton maybe a little to melancholy but great.
Thanks guys for a positive feeling itís going to be tough but Iím ready.

Smillie posted 4/24/2018 12:02 PM

Good luck, hope everything goes well.

Stevesn posted 4/24/2018 12:28 PM

Youíre doing really well. You deserve a happy life where you can love someone and have them return that same love and affection. Lifeís too short for her bullshit.

Listen, she may end up saying that she agrees and you should end it. Or she may all of a sudden find her tears and realize what she is about to lose.

For some who find themselves in a position like you do, nothing the WW can do at this point will change their mind. But if she does truly start showing remorse (feeling real sadness and empathy over the pain you are feeling) and starts asking what she can do to fix this tell her there will be lots actions she will need to take and it will probably take years, not days weeks or months to fix what she has done.

I often post the following list of things Iíve collected over time here from various threads. Use what applies to you.

Also go read some threads on WAYWARD SIDE forum here so you can understand what a truly Remorseful WS looks like.

In the meantime, get with the lawyer and have her served. If she comes around during the D process you can always put it on hold.

I admire your strength. This shit isnít easy.

Here is the list

Conditions to consider Reconciliation

1) Together we write a No Contact letter that we send to your boyfriend. No signs of affection toward him will be relayed at all. It will Be matter of fact and remove him from your life forever.

2) NO CONTACT. Meaning if you work with him you quit your job and find another so you can never see him or run into him again. Real ghosting. Blocking him from everything. If He tries to contact you then you do not respond and you tell me. If he persists our lawyer will send him a cease and desist.

3) You write out a full timeline of your Affair. Every little detail. Each day you communicated, what was said, even if you were inappropriate and raunchy. The days you were alone together, the physically touching. What you touched, what he touched, how long, and what you said to each other. All sex acts are described. Every single thing. I need to know the truth before I can try and reconcile from it. We will sit together and review it and youíll openly answer questions about it. You know the truth, I need to know it as well as you do if we are going to have a chance to save this marriage.

4) You'll write me a letter of apology explaining why you think you did what you did and what it would mean to you to have me stay and work on the marriage. It should include how you think you made me feel during all this time.

5) Once we have reviewed the timeline and letter you will agree to a polygraph to confirm you have told me the truth.

6) We will both do Individual Counseling. You to figure out why you were willing and able to go beyond our marriage vows. And me to work thru the pain you have caused me.

7) At a later point we will start Marriage Counseling to work on what was missing from the Marriage. But only after we both work on ourselves first.

8) Expose. The true nature of the affair will be exposed to both our families and appropriate close friends. They need to be able to help us make it thru this Reconciliation. Doing this alone with just the two of us and no one else knowing is doomed for failure. If you are truly Remorseful you will be the one to admit what you have done. I will be there to let them know that even though they are probably mad at you for what you have done but I ask that they support you as a couple while you are trying to work through this painful time in your marriage.

9) If your boyfriend has a wife or Girlfriend you will help me contact this spouse. You will not warn him about this as that would be breaking No Contact and if you do we are through.

10) Intimacy will be on my terms. Whatever I need to heal in whatever fashion you deem necessary. You cannot be forced to do anything you donít want to, however, I have the right to decide if denying me the intimacy I need is a deal breaker for me.

11) We will look into implementing a postnup that ensures my financial security and terms of parenting if you ever cheat again.

12) You will provide open access to all your technology from now on. On demand. No time to delete stuff. I will agree to do the same. If you dont then I assume you are obviously more interested in having secrets than continuing your Marriage.

13) No more going out without each other unless otherwise approved. Confirming your whereabouts and who you are with will be required as needed.

14) No more meeting alone with a man. No lunches, dinners, drinks whatever. Social Happy Hours (outside of actual work functions) are to be attended together or not attended at all.

15) We both will do reading on infidelity and we will use them to discuss our marriage. This includes materials such as "Not just friends" and "how to help your spouse heal from your affairĒ

16) STD testing for both of us with Visual proof of the results is required.

17) No new affairs. If so D papers will be served immediately. No lies about relationships with others any more. If so we are done.

18) Any questions about the affair are to be answered honestly for the rest of our lives together.

19) No conversations about our marriage or any other marriage with another man/woman unless we discuss it first and I confirm that itís ok to talk to that specific person about it.

20) No one comes in to our home without both us knowing.

21) Communication- No secrets, no matter how hard it will be to hear. Discuss all attractions. Discuss all third party attention. Discuss all feelings good and bad. Be honest with yourself and aware of your feelings, then communicate that to your spouse.

22) We don't do anything in absence of one another that we wouldn't do in the others presence.

23) we work to show each other moments of tenderness, acts of passion, the creation of new memories, all thru time spent together.

24) You drop any friends or family members that encouraged or helped you hide the affair. Complete NC with them.

25) Ownership of your actions during your affair and no more blameshifting or excuses for your actions.

26) I need to be treated better than your boyfriend. Whatever you did for him you will have to go further for me. We together will discuss what that means.

27) If there were major expenses incurred by you during the A and spent on the AP then you as the Wayward Spouse must find a way to pay back the Marriage for those expenses either by taking on another job or by selling something of value only to you. This will show me that you are ALL IN.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:34 PM, April 24th (Tuesday)]

MrMagnolia posted 4/24/2018 12:48 PM


You are on the path out of Limbo and we are with you every step of the way. That means we are here for the ones that hurt along with the ones that feel good and the ones that make you feel uncomfortable. No one is laughing at you because we've all been where you are before in some form or another.

You are kicking ass and showing your family how strong you are even when you're back is against the wall. I do not think your WW is going to be happy to hear what you have to tell her. Her reaction will likely be more of the same. Let us know how it goes.

I agree with Stevesn and his thoughts and advice for R. That would be only if you do decide there's a chance for it and if your WW shows remorse and comes to Jesus.

Limbo79 posted 4/24/2018 15:53 PM

I donít think she is having an A at the moment. Iím not 200% sure but we are very busy with work and kids no time really.its not impossible but wouldnít be easy.
I think she had an affair or 1night stand possibly even more than 1. Sort of friends with benefits thing.
Canít prove it but to many coincidences. And the way she has treated me, as well as all the little lies and big lies.

LifeisCrazy posted 4/24/2018 16:42 PM

I'm a bit late here... but can I say something to you?

What would YOU do if your wife accused you of having an affair? You'd say, "I'm not. If, for some crazy reason you are convinced that I am, schedule a polygraph and I'll take it. In fact, I'll take it twice."

People who bullshit you back down immediately from proposals like that. Limbo, it's not that you "can't prove it." At this point it's that she can't prove that she didn't. And there's a reason she can't. Can you guess what that reason is?

Look, the bigger issue here is not whether or not she cheated. It's what happens NOW.

Clearly, you are struggling with moving yourself out of infidelity. Like Bigger has stated - moving yourself out of infidelity is the real goal here. It's not to save the marriage... and it's not even to result in divorce. It's to move YOURSELF out of this hell that you have found yourself in.

Interestingly, when you REALLY understand that principle, it's actually pretty easy and straightforward. You simply sit down with your wife tonight and say, "I don't care what you have to say. Here's what I have to say. I am taking steps to end the marriage. Divorce takes several months - if you want to save it then it is up to you to take the steps necessary to do that. Here's what I require (and place a list in front of her). If you don't care, or if you're not willing to do those things, no worries. We'll split up our finances and deal with child custody through the court. Have a great night."

And walk away. In fact, whistle a happy tune as you walk away.

Look - the fact is, your marriage has sucked for a long time. It's time for one of you to take the bull by the horns and either fix it or end it. Your wife has shown you that she's not willing to do the hard work (at least yet) and you have shown that it's more important to you to maintain a crappy marriage than to live a happy life on your own (or with someone else).

So... do something. Either resign yourself to living in purgatory with a wife who may, or may not, cheat on you whenever she feels like it -OR- demand more from your life and move yourself out of this predicament (out of infidelity, as we say).

We all know that it's tough. No one wants to lose a marriage or break up a family. We get it. But at the end of the day, you only get ONE life to live, my friend. Your kids will be fine - in fact, they'll be more than fine. They'll be proud of their dad for having stood up for himself.

Have the conversation but control it. Do things on YOUR terms now. Move yourself out of this awful place that you're stuck in and start living.

You can do it.

Limbo79 posted 4/25/2018 02:00 AM

Like the name for a start, life is crazy itís true. My W and I work together now. Used to 25years ago as well thatís how we met. We started again due to me leaving my job to work things out in my marriage. To much time away to much ignoring the obvious.
Anyway talked with her yesterday morning and spelled it out to her I want a D. I said I need it all explained to me the truth. She said ok to divorce, but backtracked after. I said we need to talk tonight. She agreed.
She moved back in our room with me last night. Strange I canít say I liked it. Still no talk, if she has something to say she can come to me and say it. Actually I slept well. Had a good 8 hours sleep. It kept me off my iPad having her there Iíll have to thank her😂.
Iím going ahead with the D. Iím seeing a lawyer tomorrow morning and house valuation tomorrow afternoon. Iíll tell her tomorrow evening. It wonít be easy as her parents live in an annex attached to our house. But it belongs to us.
If she thinks sleeping in our bed after she chose to sleep in the spare room for 4 months is R she is confused.
This is not easy at all but I know itís what I have to do and should have done before.

Smillie posted 4/25/2018 03:22 AM

Let her do the talking. You can do less talking.

DarkHoleHeart posted 4/25/2018 03:48 AM

ok, so she's in your bed now. Next thing you might expect is that she starts initiating sex. A lot of it. Google "hoovering".
Best thing would be if you calmly explain to her that it would be best if she moves back to spare room.
You are correct, sleeping in same bed is not R. Having sex is not R.
Proceed with D. You can stop it any time.

Stevesn posted 4/25/2018 06:20 AM

If she thinks sleeping in our bed after she chose to sleep in the spare room for 4 months is R she is confused.

You are correct, sleeping in same bed is not R. Having sex is not R.

You and DHH are correct. Those things are NOT R.

R looks like the 27 things I listed above, and even then itís not a sure thing.

If she wants to know what she can do, give her your own version to f that list and tell her until she does those things and makes you feel loved and safe in your relationship, R is off the table and the D proceeds.

You are doing the right thing to get out of her Infidelity and an unloving marriage. Have some turned similar situations into a real relationship again, yes. Have many ended the marriage and gone onto happiness with someone new? yes.

The path to either is the same for you.

VinST posted 4/25/2018 06:32 AM

Some Harsh truths here. Your desperation moves are normal given the circumstances... make no mistake this a war. You have to become the alpha male again. Your wife obviously doesn't respect you. Respect is tantamount to love. Yu cannot have one without the other. Listen to some of the good advice given here. Get the upper hand again and stop playing this like you have been defeated already.
My little bit of advice:
1. for your health... give up the meat and become vegan. Studies and research have shown that many terminal illnesses can be reversed. I personally know 2 people who have beaten cancer this way. if anything juicing will give you energy like you have never had before.
2. Get back in shape... weight training shape. It will boost your confidence.
3. Serve your wife with D. If she really is remorseful she may be shocked into reality
4. If she doesnt ... well good for you on getting the toxic WW out of your life.
5. Dont become needy.. in fact effectively prove to yourself you dont need her.
6. This is not not about her and all about you. Once you get that mindset, you start to hold the trump card in your life again.

[This message edited by VinST at 6:34 AM, April 25th (Wednesday)]

MrMagnolia posted 4/25/2018 14:45 PM

How did it go today with the house and the lawyer?

Limbo79 posted 4/25/2018 16:27 PM

Magnolia thatís tomorrow. Iím nervous to say the least. Nervous because I know lawyers cost a bomb. Hopefully it doesnít turn into a snit fight over money. I want my fair share as Iíve earned and paid for it especially over the last 6years away working. Iím not a money grabber but I canít afford not to have it. Weíll also have decide about selling our business. To be honest I could carry on working there with her there. I donít think it would bother me that much.
But Iím not moving out my house.
Also worried about the valuation. Couldnít clean up the place much without raising suspicion. I hate having to keep secrets. I should tell her but she might try to cancel the valuation. Also her parents will be around so I will have to tell them tomorrow.
Do you think I should tell her?
Iíll tlak to the lawyer and find out tomorrow. Lawyer is first in the morning.
I wil have to talk to her tomorrow night and Iím sure the shit will hit the fan.

fareast posted 4/25/2018 17:11 PM


The shit has already hit the fan, for years, and it has been shitting all over you. You may be nervous but you should be firm and shut down any angry outbursts until you are finished with what you have to say. You do not have to be mean or nasty but you do have to definitely put across why you feel forced to See a divorce lawyer and have your home valuated.

Tell your WW you are no longer willing to live in a loveless, sexless marriage with a wife who treats you like pond scum. All you have asked for is honesty and transparency and some intimacy, and in return you only get stonewalling and insults. Explain you are not going to put up with the lying and cheating any longer. Tell her you deserve better than a wife who goes for walks in the woods with strange men, a wife who warns another man to delay coming out of the woods because her husband is home, a wife who hides condoms in her pocket, and a wife who could not be bothered to accompany her husband one time for his cancer treatments. Explain to her that if she is willing to change and be honest about her past, and demonstrate true remorse for her behavior you are willing to listen, but she has a lot of work to do to do all the things a loving spouse should do for her H including intimacy and sex. All of this can be done without rancor or hateful language. You are firm and determined to move on to a better life with or without your WW. Just my thoughts.

MrMagnolia posted 4/25/2018 20:55 PM

Ahh, tomorrow. Sorry, I thought I read that post briefly last night but maybe it was this morning for me. I finally crashed from a 30 hour work day for a few hours earlier and my schedule is waaay out of sync.

To me if you already told her you are heading towards D then you've already told her as much as she needs to know right now. Getting the valuation is just a part of that and it may come as a shock to her but it is a part of the D you told her was happening.

Outside of that...depending on your relationship with her parents and how this could affect them you might want to give them a heads up right before it happens. I'm really not sure what the right play is there because they are her family but their lives are going to be affected by it. Again depending on how your relationship with them is you might give a few details "it's not going to work out because the marriage is dead" or tell them everything you know and have asked for and haven't gotten in the M.

My STBxMIL called me crying when she found out I had moved out and her daughter wouldn't tell her anything. Their communication is very limited so that didn't really surprise me but I wasn't all that close with her mom either so my version sounded a lot more along the lines of "we just don't see things the same" and left it at that.

Limbo79 posted 4/26/2018 10:13 AM

Good meeting with the lawyer today. Got the ball rolling. House valuation also done. I wonít lie and say that this all makes me happy. But I know I had to be done. Nothing will happen for a week or 2 so I just have to focus on going to the gym and spending time with the kids. Oh and of course working 6 days and 2 nights a week.

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