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Lost My Best Friend

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Odonna posted 8/11/2019 08:47 AM

Your moving letter to your wife also tells me that you need IC to explore how you feel about yourself. You have idolized your wife and castigated yourself all through your marriage, so you need to build your confidence and esteem in yourself. As you do that, the relationship dynamics will change. She will feel less like the one controlling the family and you, and through her own IC will hopefully realize this is a needed change for her, too. Give IC at least a year, and blend in some MC also as it seems useful.

But please commit to changing your own feelings about yourself before anything else. The rest will follow. Go from ďNeanderthalĒ to ďNeo-AndroĒ (New Man).

[This message edited by Odonna at 8:48 AM, August 11th (Sunday)]

landclark posted 8/11/2019 11:59 AM

Stop bringing up the cheating in every conversation and start working with her to fix the marriage. Iíve done the wallowing in self-pity gig.

I fail to see how itís self pity. Cheating hurts, deeply. When Iím sad and crying about what my WH did, itís in no way self pity.

As far as bringing up the cheating, it SHOULD be a huge part of conversation. You canít just rugsweep it. Will you probably grow tired of talking about it from time to time? Sure. I do, but itís still a conversation that needs to be had often. It absolutely needs to be discussed. Asking the wayward home doesnít then give them a free pass to never discuss it again.

That said, do you need to get to a point where when she says hello you donít respond with ďcheating bitchĒ? Sure, of course, mainly because your daughter doesnít need to be subjected to that. However, itís healthy to discuss it until youíre somehow satisfied. (Not saying you do this, just using it as an example)

[This message edited by landclark at 12:00 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]

Bladerunner2054 posted 8/11/2019 12:45 PM

I'm so glad your affair didn't have any impact on your career.

Excellent!

[This message edited by Bladerunner2054 at 12:46 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]

tbkjcn posted 8/11/2019 17:58 PM

Iím not who I was, nor will I ever be again.

No, you're not, nor will you be. However, that can be true of any experience you have. Everything that happens today contributes to who you are tomorrow. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. I am not the same person I was five years ago when my world collapsed. I navigated the shitstorm of what became my life and came out stronger on the other side. That's the goal, to come out the other side as a stronger person, D or R.

And you know what? What ever you decide today doesn't have to be what you decide tomorrow. It's OK to decide today for reconciliation, and tomorrow, next week, next month decide that what happened was a deal breaker. Just like it's OK to decide for divorce, and decide later that your WW has done the work and become a safe partner for you, and that you want to stay.

The choice is yours what your path looks like, and it's rarely a straight line.

Stop bringing up the cheating in every conversation and start working with her to fix the marriage. Iíve done the wallowing in self-pity gig.

I disagree. You're in pain, and you need to process that pain. Part of processing that pain is talking about it. To her, to a councilor, to whoever. Someday it won't need to be something you talk about every day, but you can't push that pain down inside and hope it goes away. Just like an infection, it needs to come out.

Western posted 8/12/2019 10:08 AM

I agree GoldenR

nekonamida posted 8/13/2019 12:09 PM

Neanderthal, how are you doing today?

Bigger posted 8/13/2019 12:52 PM

Iím posting this on both your threads because I believe this message might help you both. I am not going to share any specific info from either thread, but this is based on my perception that you both want to reconcile, but really arenít clear on if itís possible, how to do it and what the next steps could be.
First some statements, some ground-rules or fundamental issues. Some of them might sound harsh, but to me they are about as close to absolute truths as you can find when dealing with infidelity.

Nothing justifies infidelity. Nothing at all. Neither of you can ever start a sentence with ďI/she cheated, butÖĒ followed by some reasoning to explain or minimize the decision to have an affair.
The WS needs to own the decision to have cheated. And yes Ė it is a decision. If you allow any minimization or try to avoid the total responsibility for deciding to have an affairÖ wellÖ then there isnít really any way to prevent it from happening again.

Nobody ďwinsĒ infidelity. There are only losers from infidelity. That applies both to the WS and the BS. In my black-and-white world there are only two good ways to get out of infidelity and they are reconciliation or divorce.

Nobody ďwinsĒ divorce, the Big D is like an amputation Ė itís a change thatís made to live on, to make the best of what is. You donít divorce for spite or revenge, just like you donít cut off your foot to spite someone. You divorce to get out of the situation of infidelity and a tainted marriage you (or the spouse) donít think is worth keeping. What you do with your life after D defines if you win or not.

Reconciliation is comparable. If you manage to R and do so properly you two both ďwinĒ per se. Do it properly and you should have the groundwork for a wonderful marriage. But you will soon realize that the work of R could have been done without ever having had to deal with infidelity. You donít ďwinĒ with R because of the infidelity, but rather you could ďwinĒ despite the infidelity. But only if done properly.

You canít punish for infidelity as if that punishment wipes the slate clean. Like we do with criminals: we send someone to jail for 3 years for stealing a car, and once heís out we claim heís paid his debt to society and deserves a chance to start fresh. Not the same with an affair. We canít have WS do push-ups or sleep on the floor or use public shaming. We canít punish for infidelity.
This is not the same as condoning infidelity. Far from it. But if you want to D then donít do it to punish the WS, but rather because YOU want to. If you want to R, then donít make your WS tell everyone in person about the affair unless it has a clear purpose for reconciliation. You canít punish enough for what happened, so donít even try because it wonít bring any benefit.

NOTHING Ė NOTHING Ė NOTHING is forcing either of you to remain in this marriage.
No Ė not the kids. NOTHING.
Most research shows that kids are happier when they have two loving parents in a stable, loving environment. The key-factors in that statement is not necessarily the number of loving parents, but rather the environment. This is supported in research that shows that income and education of parent has more weight on child-happiness than the number of parents. Either of you two as good, cooperating co-parents would probably be better for your kids than as husband and wife in a tense, dysfunctional, depressed and unloving environment.
Canít afford to divorce? BullÖ
Donít want to lose half of yours? More bullÖ
Itís all excuses. Itís all justification for not doing anything IMHO.

The ONLY reason you should remain married is because you WANT TO, not because you need to or canít do anything else.


OK Ė To summarize:

Nothing justifies infidelity.
The WS needs to own the decision to have cheated.
Nobody wins infidelity.
You can R or you can D.
The BS canít punish the WS successfully, nor can the WS use self-punishment as a means to make things right.
Itís only your will and your choice that keeps you in the marriage.


OK Ė so with that short intro then letís get into what I suggest you two do:
Like I stated in my first line Iím posting this on both threads:

Sit down for a minute and think: Do I want this marriage?
Iím not asking if the BS can forgive the affair or not, because thatís not really the goal. The affair will probably never be ďforgivenĒ as most of us understand that word. ButÖ does the BS want to reach a place with the WS where the affair has a lesser role in their relationship?
If no Ė divorce. Donít need WS approval to do that. Just go for it.
If yesÖ WellÖ Sit down again and think: What sort of marriage do I want?

If the WS wants a shot at being offered reconciliation they need to give the BS the total, unabridged truthÖ This should be done without having to request it. WS Ė based on your posts you want to reconcile so go do this irrespective of what your BS wants:
This can be done verbally or in written form. The WS needs to answer questions and be willing to go through the pain with the BS. The WS needs to understand that this is an opportunity to show the BS the honesty and openness and trust so much required for reconciliation. Learning NOW that the WS and the AP had sexed a gazillion times will cause less damage than learning of a kiss 5-6 months into R.

The BS needs to hear the truth and digest it. It might lead to a situation where the BS refuses to reconcile, but without the truth R isnít possible anyways. The BS needs to understand when the major truths are in the open and realize that some details might be left out because they are non-important. Like did WS have lasagna or ravioli when she ate dinner with OM might not register as relevant in the WS listing of the affair. The BS needs to decide at some point that they have enough ďtruthĒ to move on. Be it R or D. This is not the same as deciding not to ask again or for more detail, that can happen at any time. But the BS needs to feel assured he hasÖ97-99% of what he needs.

This can be supported with a poly. If the WS fails a poly after sharing the truthÖ the BS can assume there are more holes in the story and the trust isnít there. R isnít possible. But if the WS passes the polyÖ you have a good base to work from.

I think it can be beneficial to use good business practices in parts of oneís personal life.
Two entrepreneurs would never simply decide to open a business and then wait for results. You need a direction, a plan, milestones and measuring-blocks. You need to know what you are headed for and have some idea how to get there.

I think that if the BS wants to reconcile he should be upfront about it. An honest, upfront answer could be:
ďI want to reconcile, but Iím not clear on if we can. Letís try and see what we can doĒ.

There. Now you know what you are headed for. But itís only a goal, a mission-statement.

If you reach this stage, you two can start talking about what needs to be done. That could be defined partially by what I asked you to think about: What sort of marriage do I want?
Talk about this: A year, 5 years, 10 years from nowÖ what sort of marriage do you want to have? Can you reach a joint goal? A combined vision?

The WS needs to dig deep into the why. This is done with IC and should be rather limited between the IC and the WS. The BS can be informed of progress but should really not meddle in on this. WS can share, but on own accord. This is why they are called INDUVIDUAL counselors.

Youi two need to find ways to interact without the awkwardness and Ö wellÖ. HATE and sorrow that infidelity brings.
You wonít solve the infidelity issues in a week or even in a month. You need TIME, so there isnít any benefit or reason to talk A issues all the time every day. Find time to talk, preferably both rested and private. In between find a combination of alone time, together time and family time.

READ on marriage, communications, marital financesÖ Find combined activities. HeckÖ take daily 40-minute walks together. No need to talk, just walk side-by-side. Be open to ANY and ALL ideas. Marriage weekend? Go for it. Online courses? Go for it.

Find a good MC. When you phone for an appointment then ask about their experience with infidelity. Ask specifically if they think infidelity is a sign of a bad marriage or can be caused by the BS. If they say ďyesĒ then find another one. These MCís Ė using the same logic Ė probably think rape is due to the victim wearing a short skirt.

At least once a week sit down individually and think: Did we make progress this week? Did I make progress? Sit together and go over the week, the improvements and the down-sides. Be very emotionally clear and open to each other. Ask each other: Are we any closer to our goal?

Itís a long tough road, but itís made easier if you are both walking together side-by-side. Right now, it does sound like thatís what you want, but it also sounds like you arenít necessarily headed the same way. Too much push and shove and not enough support.

Hope this helps.


Neanderthal posted 8/13/2019 13:45 PM

my perception that you both want to reconcile, but really arenít clear on if itís possible, how to do it and what the next steps could be.

Perception is important term used. Since its not necessarily based on reality. Let me be clear.

I have no idea what I want.

I haven't even accepted what's happened to me yet. I even said that to my WS last night.

Also, Its hasn't even been a month yet. I'm supposed to pull up my boot straps and start chugging along? TO what? I don't know what I want, cause I haven't or cant accept my reality.

The ONLY reason you should remain married is because you WANT TO

Again I don't know what I want.

The BS canít punish the WS successfully, nor can the WS use self-punishment as a means to make things right.

I agree. I don't believe I've even attempted to punish her. Divorce wouldn't punish her. Because I don't think she even knows what she wants.

Sit down for a minute and think: Do I want this marriage?

Again, I don't know.

You need TIME, so there isnít any benefit or reason to talk A issues all the time every day

I feel like I'm being told to make a decision already, yet I need time? All I think about is the affair. Its been less than a month! What else am I supposed to be thinking about? What were you thinking about a month out. Two days from your fifteen year anniversary? Especially when I don't believe she's told me the whole truth.

Bigger,

I do appreciate your input. You just gave me a road map for the next few years of my life. The problem is, I'm still in shock. I cant see past the hour, let alone months or years.

nekonamida thanks for asking.

Things I am doing.
I'm eating more. weight loss has slowed down some this week.
I have a new IC to meet with this evening. She mainly deals with Infidelity, so hopefully she can help me process.
I'm trying to be more active. getting things done around the house.
I've even backed my wife up, in regards to my daughters behavior.

[This message edited by Neanderthal at 1:47 PM, August 13th (Tuesday)]

nekonamida posted 8/13/2019 13:51 PM

Yeah, Bigger did give you an amazing road map but there was one BIG thing in it that correlates to what you're saying - you can't R without the truth or at least damn near close to the truth you need to R. You're not there yet. You don't have to make any decisions today but when you're ready, that is where you should start.

numb&dumb posted 8/13/2019 13:52 PM

You said what you needed to say. It is a beginning. Don't keep those emotions to yourself anymore. Your W needs to hear them even if they hurt her. All of them.

Keep in mind you have choices too. What that is will become clearer in time. Keep up with the IC. Try to keep everything as normal as can be for your daughter.

Your W is likely riding the wave of being able to move home right now. Further once things settle down some will you be in a better position to judge her sincerity and remorse. Anyone can pretend to be remorseful for a week. A month is a lot harder.

Likely, right now she is saying the right things, but what has she actually done ? Does she have a plan ? Has she shared this with you ? Has she put any of this plan into action? Remember actions are really the only thing one can judge. Words, especially from someone who has lied so easily to you in the past, should not be taken at face value.

Her moving back home means nothing. However, as far as R, a part of her takes this as a deeper meaning. Sometimes when we want things so badly we can't but help and see them that way. Myopic vision towards one thing is not exclusive to wayward spouse either. She needs hope too for this to work long term too. If it feels right in the moment go for it. Do not force anything right now. Even if she begs for it. If it feels forced then decline whatever you are being asked to do.

Keep sharing your feelings with her even if it is painful for both of you.(and it will be) Also give her a chance to make it better, even for a little while.Taking a break from the hurt keeps you able to ensure it. IF that makes sense. Even if it is for just a little while. Lose the moral machinations of what you should and should not be feeling right now. Forget that. Practice trusting yourself and your gut feelings again. IC is a great place to explore that safely. You gut brought the truth into the light of day and it should be your most trusted adviser right now (aside from IC).

As far as consoling her when she heard your letter. . . Do not be hard on yourself about that. In the moment it felt right. It was right for you then. If that is the case let yourself feel good about that. It is OK. It is was not weak to do so. It meant nothing deeper than you saw someone suffering and wanted to help. It shows your generous nature and you are a kind and good person. Trust me I've had those feelings and was very hard on myself when I did show generosity or kindness. At worse case it shows your daughter that "Daddy," is dependable. Keep in mind that whatever happens in your M your daughter is also your WS's daughter too. She was happy she saw her Mom daily again. Be happy for your daughter without worrying about the future. That day it made her happy. One day at one time, KWIM ?

You are who you are. Stay true to your character, integrity and morals. That is the real test of strength. Staying true to yourself.

It is way too early to commit to anything and I'd doubt your W is at full remorse yet. Sometimes WS can fake remorse for a time, but tire of it quickly if they don't get immediate praise. WS are vulnerable to positive ego kibbles and it takes time for them to validate themselves. Sometimes this process is two forward and one back.

As far as your W. She needs to spend time in IC. She has not begun to grasp the enormity of the impact her decision has had on not only you, your daughter,. . . heck your grandchildren might even be impacted. Once she gets full remorse it will crush her. I've seen it first hand and it was not pretty. She isn't there yet. Whether she can or can't is 100% up to her. Is she strong enough to really dig into that closet full of skeletons and figure out why she felt this was an acceptable choice ? That is a hard process for a WS, so extend little bits of grace and kindness where you it feels right. Nothing wrong with doing that.

Your actions define who you are. I know there is a lot of anger inside and a lot of pain. It is important that you have a chance to express this to your W from time to time. At other times it is very important that she express what she feels about these choices too. (you need to see that she suffers as many consequences as you do). Soon it is good to keep those discussions as focused on one or the other. IF both of your are talking then no one is listening versus waiting for their turn to speak. KWIM ? Both of you need to speak and be heard for communication to work. Also it is fine to table something to discuss later if emotions gets out of hand. Going to bed angry. . .is fine contrary to conventional wisdom.

Right now if her words match her actions it is ok to let them in. IF they don't. . .well you get the idea. Keep posting. We are still here for you and are willing to help.

Bigger posted 8/13/2019 13:54 PM

No Ė you donít need to decide anything right now. Use this time to think and evaluate. Thatís both OK AND sensible.
In a sense itís a bit like falling off a boat. Your best bet is probably to doggy-peddle and keep afloat rather than swim in random directions, but after some time all peddling will do is wear you out. At some point you need to set a course and start swimming.
But thatís not now.

Nek Ė read my post: I emphasize the truth as the basis for reconciliation.

MickeyBill2016 posted 8/13/2019 14:18 PM

Especially when I don't believe she's told me the whole truth.

This is an important point. And it could ruin any progress that you make. IIRC she made statements that you do not think are the entire truth. As do your fellow BS here on the forum.
If what she said is true, and maybe the poly will "settle" that it would be a good step.
But OTOH if she decides to be honest and change what she said at first, admit a lie, it will probably be something you will not be able to forgive. So if she wants the M, she may feel that she has to take that to the grave, as it will be 99% as bad as the A.
Can't build a new house on a bad foundation.

TAKE AS MUCH TIME AS YOU NEED. Like you said it has only been a month!
Hang in there brother...

Neanderthal posted 8/13/2019 14:40 PM

She did/felt something last night and texted me about it today. I snapped at her.

I was outside working my ass off. Hoping the physical work would help me sleep and not have the mind movies. It didn't work by the way.

Its was Hell on Earth hot in my Oklahoma yesterday. So I was dripping wet with sweat with no shirt on. I came in to get some water and she saw me.

She told me via text that her jaw dropped when she saw me. That she stared at me through the window while I worked. "watching a man use his hands and strength to do work around the yard"

I snapped back saying: Now that you no longer have a boyfriend, you can see me as more than a steady paycheck? I'm so thankful that you noticed me.

I was livid! I was doing similar fucking work while building her stupid chicken coop, or all the other shit I've been doing for years. Not once in all that time has she said anything similar to that. All of a sudden she in fucking love with me again? Is attracted to me? Wants to jump my bone?! Its fucking silly. BTW I'm still waiting out the stupid STD bullshit. So I couldn't even give her an angry fuck if I wanted to.

Its so frustrating, she got what she wanted. She was worried I didn't want her (before the affair). Now she see's I'm devastated, and realizes, Oh shit, he did want me!

numb&dumb posted 8/13/2019 16:06 PM

I think she was trying in weird way. It was words BTW. I don't see action attached to it. WS rarely ever get it right without practice. You went with your gut and that is good right now. Your anger is keeping you safe. Give it a couple of days to let in settle in your head and look back at that once instance. Figure what about it set you off (I am guessing more than one thing) give words to that feeling. Share it with her. She needs to understand just how big of mindf--- her behavior then and now is. She has to address that with you if she wants any hope of R.

You haven't changed. Yet after she ripped your heart through your chest she suddenly sees, respects and appreciates you. Next time she says that or offers something similar ask her why. What has changed other than you might leave the M now ? Is that her only motivation for doing these things. If they are out of character for her ask where she got the idea. Is she just following a list that someone gave to her ? That is easy. She needs to find her own way to communicate with you that is unique to you.

It reflects poorly on her that she did not realize what she had. You are who you are. Steady. Ask her to figure out what changed and why ?

BTW the urge to have sex with our WS is 100% normal BTW it is called Hysterical Bonding. In your case I would avoid that until the STD situation can be figured out. Once cleared the general consensus it is ok. Even more confusing, but ok as long as you want to do it.

You have to find ways to get the anger out man. That shit eats you alive from the inside out. Exercise worked for me. I got a heavy bag for my basement and punched until I was exhausted several times.

It doesn't matter what it is as long as it works for you.

DoinBettr posted 8/13/2019 16:27 PM

I am glad you are doing better. You should read your earlier posts. You are improving. This is really going way too fast for recovery but you are partly doing this for your child.

I would recommend you start journaling. You seem to need to organize your thoughts. It will help you mitigate your anger and direct it. It also will be like a lifting journal. It will show you improving as time goes on. You first showed up scared, angry, and confused. Now you are starting to ask yourself the right questions. It will take time.

Getting outside and working on the yard is a great idea. Physical labor with something to look at after you are done.

Take the compliment about you being sexy. You know your self esteem could use the polish.

Good luck and know you are making some amazing headway.

LivingWithPain posted 8/13/2019 16:32 PM

She told me via text that her jaw dropped when she saw me. That she stared at me through the window while I worked. "watching a man use his hands and strength to do work around the yard"

I snapped back saying: Now that you no longer have a boyfriend, you can see me as more than a steady paycheck? I'm so thankful that you noticed me.

I was livid! I was doing similar fucking work while building her stupid chicken coop, or all the other shit I've been doing for years. Not once in all that time has she said anything similar to that. All of a sudden she in fucking love with me again? Is attracted to me? Wants to jump my bone?! Its fucking silly. BTW I'm still waiting out the stupid STD bullshit. So I couldn't even give her an angry fuck if I wanted to.

I did the same thing with my fWW about a month after she moved back in. I had just come back from a five mile run and was soaked with sweat. I had lost a ton of weight and was starting to get some definition in my core, and she mentioned how sexy I looked all hot and sweaty. And something snapped in me.

I don't remember exactly what I said, but it had to do with her OM and my perception that she married me for my stability and safety and not my physical looks. Except the way I said it was way harsher and included many expletives and colorful metaphors of her and her OM.

steadychevy posted 8/13/2019 17:36 PM

I think Bigger's post should be preserved somewhere for all. It's been noted already that Neanderthal is not long past DDay.

Neanderthal, you don't know what you want yet. That's okay. You are so early in this shitshow it's hard to know. I resourced seminars on estate planning for businesses. One of the important things was that people shouldn't make life altering decisions when emotional. In those seminars the emotion talked about was because of an unexpected death.

The same holds true for the trauma caused by adultery. It is highly emotional and traumatic. The time period often used to delay making these decisions is 6 months or a year. I think a year is probably preferable.

Some make the decision very shortly after discovery. There are several examples on SI. The had a clear understanding that adultery was a deal breaker. I thought so to until it happened to me. They, however, were clear eyed about where they were going.

The decision is yours to make unless your WW makes it for you. That happens. Nonetheless, you shouldn't make the decision either way until you're certain it is the best for you and for your future. Not anyone else. Best for you.

Butforthegrace posted 8/13/2019 21:03 PM

I was livid! I was doing similar fucking work while building her stupid chicken coop, or all the other shit I've been doing for years. Not once in all that time has she said anything similar to that. All of a sudden she in fucking love with me again? Is attracted to me? Wants to jump my bone?!

One of the most common narratives leading to cheating is a spouse who gets caught in an inner mental spiral, convincing him- or herself that he/she is neglected, unloved, etc., and in turn neglecting and "un-loving" the spouse about to be betrayed. Then, when the shit hits the fan, the cheater wakes up and realizes what a fool she/he has been. Sounds cockamamie and lunatic, because it is, yet this is really how a great deal of adultery occurs from my observation.

So, the answer to your question is "yes". I can't begin to tell you how many WW's have husbands that are stand-up guys -- hard working, loving, steady, honest, supportive, a young unmarried woman's wet dream. Then they convince themselves that they are stifled and unloved so they go fuck some disease-ridden scumbag who whispers saccharine words to them. It's so common it's cliche. That's the sad part for your WW -- her A was utterly cliche. Sad, tawdry, threadbare, musty. They use the term "The Fog" to describe this. I think they use it because fog, as a metaphor, indicates an inability to see reality with clarity. I get that, but I don't like fog as a metaphor because in the real world fog is a physical phenomenon that comes to one externally, driven by other forces, whereas the twisted illusion thinking of a wayward spouse is entirely created internally by herself.

It seems like your WW actually loves you, respects you, and wants to devote her life to making things right with you. That's a lot more than many husbands have, including husbands with wives who have not cheated, but who ignore them and offer no sex nor affection.


[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:35 AM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

anoldlion posted 8/13/2019 21:17 PM

You have an opportunity that so many men would kill for. You have a remorseful wife who loves you and will do anything to fix you and the damage she has caused. Don't let your pride and bruised masculinity get in the way of R and a, more than possible, happy married life. You give her the gift of R and in return you may, very well, be given the gift of a good and happy marriage. I do wish you well.

MickeyBill2016 posted 8/13/2019 21:18 PM

Journaling is a good idea, I didn't realize that I was doing it as I was just writing down my thoughts, anger, fears and ideas in a spiral notebook I found in my desk.

I found it was a good way to do a brain dump, getting the thoughts that were spinning around in my head out of my head and onto paper.
It also let me see my progress, as well as my ups and downs...

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