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Lost My Best Friend

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MickeyBill2016 posted 8/13/2019 21:19 PM

Oops double double post.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 9:21 PM, August 13th (Tuesday)]

leopren posted 8/14/2019 07:31 AM

Anoldilon, i think this is Neanderthal thread,i think the focus is support him and not his wife agenda. And i have doubts if sonmany man kill gor a woman who play house babysitting her boyfriend childs while marriedñ

stubbornft posted 8/14/2019 07:45 AM

Default Posted: 9:17 PM, August 13th (Tuesday), 2019 View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage
You have an opportunity that so many men would kill for. You have a remorseful wife who loves you and will do anything to fix you and the damage she has caused. Don't let your pride and bruised masculinity get in the way of R and a, more than possible, happy married life. You give her the gift of R and in return you may, very well, be given the gift of a good and happy marriage. I do wish you well.

Man that was cuckoo to say. This guy was just cheated on by his wife, don’t think any men would kill to be in his position. She was just recently CHEATING on him. Man.

Neanderthal- this is a perfect example of “know your audience”. Many men would just expect a wife that doesn’t cheat.....

Divorce is a totally appropriate response to infidelity. If you decide in time to reconcile that is your choice but it is above and beyond and honestly something most people wouldn’t be willing to do. I don’t think you should feel one tiny bit of pressure to reconcile. You can leave with your head held high if you choose to. Absolutely not a question of being prideful. She broke the vows not you. Please remember that some people here push for reconciliations across the board - take what advice you need and disregard the rest.

Neanderthal posted 8/14/2019 07:52 AM

Is she just following a list that someone gave to her ? That is easy. She needs to find her own way to communicate with you that is unique to you.

I spoke with her last night about it. I explained why I didn't accept it at face value as a compliment. Right now I see everything she does as a way to manipulate me. Get me to let down my guard. Its hard to believe her.

She also admitted that in a way, she is being coached. A lot of people on here are giving her ideas/advice on how to act and treat me. I told her its got to be genuine.

It seems like your WW actually loves you, respects you, and wants to devote her life to making things right with you.

I hope you're right. Only time will tell.

That's a lot more than many husbands have, including husbands with wives who have not cheated, but who ignore them and offer no sex nor affection.

You have an opportunity that so many men would kill for. You have a remorseful wife who loves you and will do anything to fix you and the damage she has caused. Don't let your pride and bruised masculinity get in the way of R and a, more than possible, happy married life. You give her the gift of R and in return you may, very well, be given the gift of a good and happy marriage. I do wish you well


I had written a fairly angry post lat night in response to you. Instead I deleted it and replied this morning. Hopefully with less emotion involved.

I'm truly sorry you've experienced infidelity. Its a terrible thing. I can only guess your WW wasn't what you wanted her to be.

But I do not consider my lucky or grateful to be in this situation. What on earth is she writing in her forum that's convinced you guys completely that she is remorseful, loves me, and is willing to do anything to fix me?

You think its my ego getting in the way? I think its the fact that she slept with another man a month ago.

I do appreciate everyone's feedback, but I definitely don't agree with all of them.

And now current events:
My new counselor was a success. I asked her if a BS is ever to blame for a WS cheating. She replied: "Nope, Never"
We talked about me being in shock. She said I'm frozen. I will have weekly sessions with her for some time. I spoke with her about still wanting to be intimate with my WW. She thinks its me trying to claim what is mine (me dumb ape!), that its a normal response to the trauma I've experienced. I can do it without intercourse(STD concerns). Start with basic holding, touching etc. I asked my WW if she would like to do that last night. She was very happy to say yes. So I did just that. I touched her, held her, kissed her, and she reciprocated the actions. The mind movies were constant, but it didn't make me want to stop. I don't know if this was a good idea or not, maybe its giving her the wrong message. But honestly I don't care. It felt good.

As for journaling, I do write down things I want to discuss with my WW, and I wait till we are in person to do it. I'm using this forum as my form of logging. It has been very helpful. Again, thank you SI.

ItsNotMe posted 8/14/2019 08:30 AM

Hi Neanderthal,

I have been following your thread and you WW'S thread for since you started. I see there are a lot of people pushing in both directions and I get it. they are trying to help, they see your pain and want to help you past it.

The fact is that you are still way to close to DDay to know what to feel. You are right, its to soon to know what you want. Your heart and your brain are fighting a battle that neither will win completely. Eventually they will come to a compromise that you can accept. I have no idea what that will be or when it will come. No one does. But, it will eventually come.

Right now the best thing you can do is wait. Give counseling time to have an effect. Gradually let your mind and heart come to their compromise. It could take months. Things will gradually get better and you will be able to accept that the trauma did happen and it isn't the end of the world, but it did change things. Eventually you will come to a conclusion as to what you can accept and what you can't. Honestly, it could take many months for you to get to a place that you can make those decisions.

Does it matter that she is trying. maybe, and maybe not. She made a decision and destroyed your world. Is she remorseful, maybe. In the long run it may matter to you. You won't know for sure tomorrow, or probably next month.

I guess what I am saying is, its ok not to decide now. You have all the time you want. Its not a contest to see who can decide first. This is all on your time line and that is ok. You are handling things well, and you know what you need better than any of us. Support is a good thing and there is plenty of it here. But ultimately you are in control of your life. She may have taken a hammer to it, but in the end you get to decide how you want to make the repairs.

Hang in there and take all the time you need..

Bigger posted 8/14/2019 10:45 AM

Yes, she is being coached. Just like we are trying to coach you.

However - in her desperation she’s trying random suggestions, rather than follow some plan or agenda. Remember when I compared this to falling off a boat? She’s taking a few strokes to the east, before turning west, before going back before swimming to the north before turning south…

Maybe the big difference in my advice (coaching…) is that I presented the very same word-by-word advice to both of you.
The core of my advice is that you are both working from a joint base, a joint agreement.


It could also be a decision to give each other space and time to cool off.
It could be as “simple” as both agreeing that for NOW and maybe the next 10 days you won’t file and she will ease off a little on trying to win you back.
It could be an agreement that you talk infidelity and marriage at certain times in certain conditions, and try to be amicable in-between.

Main thing IMHO is that you both have clear expectations.

Odonna posted 8/14/2019 11:06 AM

I a so very glad you found a good IC. I do hope you explore the issues I recommended to you at the top of page 13.

Meanwhile, I agree with others that just taking some time to cool off before plunging into decision-mode is a good idea in your circumstances. Limbo is horrible, but in cases where R may be possible it can be endured for a bit for the sake of being able to see things more clearly. Treat yourself extremely well, however; get outside as much as you can and look at the sky and remember how small we all are. That always helps me.

[This message edited by Odonna at 11:07 AM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

teisen posted 8/14/2019 12:21 PM

Neanderthal -

I echo everyone else about being sorry you're here. I've not posted much in this forum but I've shared a lot of my story in the one other post I did and have read many many posts for insight.

The short version of my story is my WW had two affairs over the course of 14 months, both were physical and emotional with multiple sexual encounters. It's a TERRIBLE emotional place to be. My DDay was 4/13/18 and we had about a month of TT after that. I recognize a lot of myself and my responses/reactions in what you have said and done - though I didn't have the strength to throw my WW out of the house. We have three children under 10 and I was very anxious about their well-being. I still am.

Our problems started with postpartum after the birth of our second child. I'm not responsible for what my wife did but I was not the husband she deserved or needed. I knew that from the first day of this hell and that knowledge was the source of my patience. In the end I knew that I still loved my wife and that I wanted to give her every chance possible to reconcile and keep our family and home together. In the 16 months I've been working on this there have been a LOT of ups and downs and I wouldn't say we made any real progress until she made another major screw up in Dec. 2018 and finally saw her actions for what they were. She couldn't have seen them if I hadn't been open to at least some continued pain and harm (which I definitely got).

I think it's clear that these problems have their root in self-centered-ness - me as well as her. It was clear to me that the only way to approach the problem with any hope of fixing it was to choose selflessness as much as possible. It wasn't easy and I wasn't always consistent (hell, I'm in the middle of a selfish downward spiral today) but I didn't give my wife the excuse of pointing at me and telling herself that I was the problem. Here we are 16 months later and the last email from her about this was that she is embarrassed and humiliated by her actions, doesn't recognize the person she was and has a hard time looking me in the eye some times and struggles to understand how I could ever respect her again. We weren't able to start healing until she reached that point and if I had been stubborn and self-centered we never would have reached it.

My approach will probably not work for everyone but the first day of all of this I told myself that I had a choice - I could allow myself to be transformed by love or transformed by hate. I've never done hate very well - I couldn't even be mean to the two other men (I emailed one and called the other, apologized for my role in making my wife emotionally available to them, then told them it was time for them to back off and leave her and my family alone).

This was a bit rambling and I think a lot of people in these forums want to give you both support and hope. It can feel like foolishness especially this early in this process for you but leaps of faith like trust and love are inherently foolish things which is part of what makes them so beautiful.

Good luck brother - wish you weren't here with us but you're not alone and it will get better with time.

Butforthegrace posted 8/14/2019 13:54 PM

Hello Neanderthal

I'm of course not trying to suggest being cheated on is a stroke of good luck. I was cheated on and dumped for the AP. I sat in my office with the door closed and cried like a baby on my Dday (which occurred about 7:00 a.m. on a weekday as I was heading to work). There was a several-week period where it wasn't clear if she was going to leave or stay (or me). I raged. I smashed a kitchen table into the wall hard enough to make a hole in the wall. I tried the pick-me dance. I was pathetic.

I say all that to let you know that I've been through the wringer of betrayal too. Being cheated on by a wife is a species of bad luck -- the "bad luck" part relating to the rotten core in the WW that we didn't know about when we chose to marry them. We picked a wife we thought we could trust forever. Unknown to us, something was fucked up with her neural wiring and she malfunctioned. She lied, cheated, fucked another man. It hurts. Deep in the feels.

There are different levels of bad luck. I know parents whose kids were killed tragically: drunk driver; stray bullet; faulty carnival ride. You want to talk about a mind fuck, try that one. I know a man whose wife died in childbirth, leaving him a single father. I know a guy who was riding a motorcycle when an owl flew just in time to hit his face, breaking his neck and paralyzing him. I know guys who invested into companies that failed, leaving them broke. Etc.

As to marriage, I know guys married to wives who have long since checked out of the marriage and content themselves buying clothes and sleep-walking through life, offering up zero in terms of sex or affection. Those guys truly feel trapped.

Here on SI we see thread after thread of BH with un-remorseful WWs who insist that their BH rug-sweep and STFU.

What you have is, in my observation, a rarity in terms of SI: a WW who seems to be truly remorseful, pretty quickly, and who earnestly wants nothing more than to R with you and, in the process, to re-set the marriage to something better.

Does that mean you have it easy? Nope. You have the same trauma I had, Bigger, most of the other guys here. Years of healing. Doubt about your worth as a sexual man. Shit sandwich.

As to your WW being coached, yup, she has cheerleaders giving her pointers. Like most WWs, she probably needs them. Her instinct is to go Ostrich and stick her head in the sand, try to hide from her own shame.

In the end, regardless where the genesis of her ideas lies, she is the one who needs to make overtures toward you. Why would she do that if R was not what she actually wanted?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 4:08 PM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

Booyah posted 8/14/2019 14:36 PM

"Being cheated on by a wife is a stroke of bad luck"?

What does luck have anything to do with your spouse cheating on you?

Is it "luck" that keeps a spouse honoring vows?

Is it "luck" that determines boundaries?

Is it "luck" that keeps a spouse determining what right and wrong is?

So now making a conscious choice to cheat and lie is "bad luck"????

This is CRAZY!!!!

numb&dumb posted 8/14/2019 15:34 PM

Hang on to who you are is the best advice I can give you right now. As you progress through IC you might hear them mention co-dependence. Don't discount it.

I, like you, said something to the effect of " Isn't that just a buzz words you guys use to get more billable hours?"

Well I had to eat crow later as I realized that my M was very co-dependent. I talk about it a lot here because it was key to my healing and eventual making peace with that past. Don't get me wrong it is not a catch all, it is one of those layers that hurts you more than it helps you in a lot of situations.

The thing is that you are feeling a lot of pain right now because you see her A as something she did "because" of you. Not even close to the reason why she choose this. She choose this because she wanted to do it. She pondered it some and went through a thought process that allowed her to check all the boxes even though you can really only check one. She thought she found a loophole. She didn't. On Dday it all came crashing down.

I am sure there are resentments in there on her side. Apart from the A you have them too. These are not the reasons someone choose to have an A. They are things you work through once you are ready to build a second M. My W and I rebuilt our M versus keeping the old one. Why ? The old one did not work for us. We talked and negotiated what we did and did not want in our new M. It became a shared project where we both were allowed to be who we actually were versus who the other person expected us to be. Hopefully that make sense. It is weirdly empowering and liberating to have that kind of freedom.

Right now, it is too soon to do that. Any kind of timeline before the STDs tests come back ? Or is there something else holding you back from being intimate with her ? I am not saying that is wrong at all. Just trying to help you get the next level down. Baby steps and on your terms should be the norm right now.

Have you thought about your comfort level with what she has told you ? Look, you shouldn't trust everything she tells you right now. It is not being vindictive it is being smart. You are protecting yourself from further hurt. You should be allowed to protect yourself, right ?

My point is right now the "story" of the A has two different versions.Your (likely somewhat made up in your head) and hers (factual, but held some back due to shame or manipulating you into R). The truth of the A needs to be out there. All of it. Ask questions. Repeat details. Walk through the timeline beginning to end as often as you need to. Remember the communication tips I gave to you. Keep your emotions in check as best as you can. If every time you ask a questions and she answers honestly you can't blow up at her. All that does is encourage her to lie more or not share things. You are a guy, like me. We are taught from a very young age that anger is one of the few ways, "that are strong," to handle times like this. Further anger is wonderful at alleviating painful emotions. Have you ever stubbed your toe and then got mad and hit the wall ? No ? Oh , that must just be me . . .

Anyway I realized I've typed out too much already. You are doing what you need to do right now. This won't last forever. I can look back at that time in my life and I still feel a glimmer of that pain, but I also see how much stronger, more confident and happier with myself than I've ever been. I hope that, you too,can find that place one day.

DoinBettr posted 8/14/2019 15:50 PM

Fellow screwed over dude.
Let me start by saying I am one of the people coaching your wife.
Half of what I am giving her is what I find in books, articles, and forum posts. She is reading and trying to fix her screw up. The genuine feelings behind things should be inside of you. She has been given piles of advice and is navigating by pulling what sounds good and using it. Just like we have been doing here for you. Remember when we were coaching you about rules to come back or her quitting. It would be the same if she was doing what is in the "How to help your spouse recover from an affair" book.
Overall, I am trying to help you 2, and apologize if you feel I am stepping on your toes.
I am also in the camp that you only found out like 30 days ago, so things are new. You are thrashing about just as much as any of us were.
Just stay focused on your daughter and work through your heart. Working out is always good as well.
Get cut!
You are doing great. Figure yourself out. Know you will waffle a lot. Shit I did more to shake my wife out of the fog then you did.
Good luck!

numb&dumb posted 8/15/2019 15:45 PM

Hey N,

How are doing today ? Just checking in that is all. It is healthy to take time away from SI too. You need that time to think and gain perspective.

Anyway I was thinking about you today and hoping you are ok.

Neanderthal posted 8/16/2019 10:16 AM

DoinBettr, Bigger, and all the coaches

I'm not upset she is being coached. But I do worry about why she's doing these things. Is it genuine? or just because she is being told to do them. She is very competitive. I'm not saying she's competing with any other WS or me. Just that she hates to fail, or even the perception of it. Only time will tell. Thank you for helping her help me. Just don't make it too easy on her. She needs to think for herself a little bit.

Yesterday was our 15 year anniversary. I had to work, which was a good thing. It kept my mind busy. Until I started to drive home. A feeling of complete loss and utter sadness hit me. I pretty much lost myself for a bit. When I got home I didn't know what to do. I was just pacing around. Then I finally sat down and held my WW. I held her like I was never going to let go. The hopelessness and sadness passed. Our daughter came out and saw us, she jumped right in and we had a long group hug.

I was planning to take my daughter out to eat. Just the two of us. Someplace with a play area for her to run around in and get tired. Even after everything my WW did to me, I still wanted to be with her on our tainted anniversary. So I asked if she wanted to join us. She was very thankful for that olive branch. We ate dinner at a cheap fast food place, and my daughter played. We talked about work, and other simple life stuff. For a couple hours we just acted as if our family wasn't broken. It was a really nice reprieve from the last month of pain.

Earlier in the day, I asked my wife to find our wedding video. In 15 years, I've never watched it. Until last night. It was very hard for me to watch. I broke down listening to us say our vows to each other.

After my daughter went to bed, we sat and talked, hugged and kissed. It seems like everything she says triggers me. She mentioned how I've always had such nice lips. I immediately asked: Why did you kiss him then?

I probably apologized to her half a dozen times through the evening. I know I'm not supposed to believe its my fault all this happened. I must get past that. Easier said then done I suppose. To her credit, she did stop me, and tell me I didn't do anything wrong. That it was her fault.

Ear muffs kids.....We ended the night fooling around. Pretty much anything that can be done without intercourse or oral sex. It was nice to relieve the pressure so to speak.

Considering the circumstances, it was a pretty good day. But it was just fantasy after all.

Wanting the thing that hurt me more than I ever thought was possible. Am I a masochist? or just an idiot?

Oldwounds posted 8/16/2019 10:28 AM

Wanting the thing that hurt me more than I ever thought was possible. Am I a masochist? or just an idiot?

Don't be too hard on yourself. I'm thinking more that you're just a guy who loves his family.

But I understand the exact same questions. As with this one:

Is it genuine?

Only time will tell with consistent actions -- not words -- actions.

I think it took me a long, long time to believe those actions here at home.

All good questions that you will ask yourself more than a few times. I didn't start to feel good about any of the answers (mine or hers) until I let go of the outcome and understood I would be good, regardless of how the M turns out.

Butforthegrace posted 8/16/2019 10:46 AM

Am I a masochist? or just an idiot?

Neither. You're a man, injured by the woman you love, trying to find your heart's truth.

As to whether she is genuine, time will tell. You say she doesn't like to lose, but even that begs the question. If she views losing you as losing, and succeeding to R with you as winning, then that underscores where her heart lies: with you.

Bigger posted 8/16/2019 11:07 AM

You are an idiot. All us straight men are idiots. If we had any sense, we would all be gay bears. Automatically have a golfing and fishing partner, only eat junk-food, have all the sex we wanted and at least a 10% higher combined income.
But sometimes all we can be is an idiot.

I think I can say without sharing anything off your WW thread that although she’s being coached she isn’t necessarily following the advice to the letter. Like you she needs time.
Time is so important. Remember that you don’t have to solve all the issues right now or all the time. As long as you two carry on to a better place then the pace you choose is good enough.

One tip: Try to see your wife as two personas. There is the W, the woman you married and the woman you thought you knew and want back (if you want to R). Then there is the WW. That’s the woman that could decide to have an affair, hide it from you and trickle-truth you. Do all you can to get the W back and to exorcise the WW.

landclark posted 8/16/2019 11:10 AM

Wanting the thing that hurt me more than I ever thought was possible. Am I a masochist? or just an idiot?

Neither. I think you'll find a lot of betrayed spouses, myself included, feel the same way. I still want my husband, physically and emotionally. I want what I thought I had. I want his arms around me. I also hate everything he has done though and want him gone. Can't win really.

teisen posted 8/16/2019 11:20 AM

Neanderthal -

My wife and I were in hysterical bonding mode almost from the get-go - it was trippy to have thoughts of what she did occasionally float into my head during the act and it was a bit of a crutch - 16 months out we still have bad nights (though that stuff is mostly gone) - last night was rough - because of TT I was back to doubting whether I knew the whole truth - it was emotional, it was hard - she cried, I cried. She expressed her doubts and her feelings of sadness and despair too.

This morning we both feel better for the bad night. We hugged before leaving for work and she said, "see, if we love each other this much how can we fail to make this work?"

Going through this for us meant being back at almost a courtship level in the relationship. It meant watching our words again when you can in order to spare each other unnecessary pain.

It's sort of a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of place. Neither of you can know if the marriage will survive or not but you can give it every chance.

Best advice I ever received: be gentle with each other.

MickeyBill2016 posted 8/16/2019 11:23 AM

You both are trying to get beyond the affair, she seems to be trying different things and you seem to be trying different things, with a long term goal of R. But there are many twists and turns and obstacles before you get to R. Some you may be unable to accept.

Like your question of why did she kiss him, I hope that her answer was more than "I don't know, I was stupid and regret it"

Being coached is not a bad thing. In my D I had no idea what to do, what to ask or anything. I did most things wrong but so did she.
Both of you should take the advice with a grain of salt. Do what in the end you can live with.

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