Beyond posted 6/23/2020 13:27 PM

Has anyone's XWH, especially of the NPD variety, hidden or attempted to hide income so that the BW and/or children of child support age couldn't get it?

Interested in hearing about it, to the extent you can share...And VERY interested in:

Whether you caught him/her and
The means by which he/she attempted to hide the $.

Thank you in advance!

-Beyond

Catwoman posted 6/23/2020 13:52 PM

Oh, yeah . . . .

My ex is diagnosed NPD.

Our MSA specified child support at a specific rate based on his base salary and also spousal support at a percentage of his gross commission income, such income to be verified by a copy of his monthly commission paystub to be furnished to me.

The month after the decree nisi was granted, I didn't get a spousal support check, nor did I get a pay stub. Naturally, he ignored all requests for the same.

When the following month came around, he submitted the check and the paystub. I figured via the YTD on the paystub that he owed SS from the previous month. He denied it (of course) and we took him to court for contempt. He ended up paying the day before we were to go to court.

Beginning the following year, the pay stubs I got did not include any YTD information, so we knew he was hiding income. When I had enough and I also had other issues, I took him back to court and we subpoenaed his employer for pay records for the past 2 years. We found he had deliberately hidden income and he owed me a LOT of money.

You do have recourse, but he has to be in contempt. Is he in contempt? Can you take him to court for some other violation of the MSA?

Cat

NEWPERSON posted 6/24/2020 01:34 AM

I am in South Africa-married to a narcissist(he admitted himself) and similar dilemma, he made sure he put everything under the Trust (which would require him, hi dad to approve that I get anything)

So I am doomed the lawyer says , so now am hoping he can pay maintenance for the children

The1stWife posted 6/24/2020 05:32 AM

Common tactic to hide income.

Sometimes the tax return information is subpoenaed and that is sufficient to prove income.

I’ve seen one spouse refuse to work to avoid alimony and child support. Or work off the books to avoid paying $ to the ex.

In my state if you owe child support you can lose your drivers license or go to jail etc. but proving the $ is owed is not easy.

Catwoman posted 6/24/2020 05:46 AM

If you have a court case open (i.e. complaint for contempt), you can subpoena a lot of stuff, including records directly from their employer, bank records, etc. Sometimes just the threat of this can get them to provide the necessary documents.

My ex insisted that he couldn't get paystubs with YTD information. Funny--his employer provided them immediately. He also said that since the paystubs were electronic pdfs that they couldn't be altered. I told him (I'm in the graphic arts business) that I could give the judge four separate ways in which he could be producing pay stubs without YTD information and would he like to go there. I was prepared to show the judge all the different ways he could have altered the pay stub to hide the YTD information and he knew it.

Cat

Muggle posted 6/25/2020 00:30 AM

Has anyone's XWH, especially of the NPD variety, hidden or attempted to hide income so that the BW and/or children of child support age couldn't get it?

Yes, my narcissistic ex self proclaimed that he would decide what I was entitled to. I hired an attorney. We had a hugely contested, vile divorce. I came out on the winning end of everything.

He started a competing business in the name of the wife he married but I caught it. He was extremely predictable.

We weren't married for 23 years, but he married her in 14 short days after I found out. He put all their personal expenses through the business that was considered a marital asset for us. He paid his wife a hefty salary, even when she didn't work and was on vacation.

I had to force him to provide bank statements, and give me access to view until the divorce was finalized. He put her as a signer on the account.

He took huge draws of money, over $200k in a year, not counting the personal things they were charging to the business, such as rent, utilities, gas and food. I lived with our 3 kids on less than $3k a month.

I threatened him with a forensic accountant and trial. In the end I was compensated for some of it, but not all. He got away with plenty, but I was tired, and emotionally depleted by the end.

Now he appears to be hiding money and assets from the IRS, and putting things in her name to avoid lawsuits and liens for unpaid taxes. She uses her maiden name to likely avoid the connection.

He pays my settlement on the last day of the month, and often two weeks beyond that. He knows I can't pursue him in court unless he's a full 30 days late, which means I'm without money for almost 60 days. I've had to threaten him with legal action for almost everything. He didn't pay off the debts, it's now getting paid, but will end up taking an extra year to accomplish.

He knows it's expensive to drag him back to court. I have to pay my own fees, and you don't get them back in most cases. It's not financially viable to cost me $1000 in legal fees to get back $500 in money. I have another 2.5 years he owes me payments. It will be a nightmare until that time comes.

He is hostile, blames me for the financial destruction of his life and will hold a grudge until the end of time.

Be prepared for a battle, but remember to win the war, and make sure it makes financial sense to pursue it. Don't spend thousands to get dollars. Make it count.

Beyond posted 6/25/2020 06:38 AM

Thank you all for the input. Really appreciate it!

This is not my X - it's my BFF's NPDWXH. Been in court for YEARS, as is typical with narcs, unfortunately.

Cat: The court case is open. He failed to comply with document requests (surprise), but court ordered his compliance. Suddenly and coincidentally claims his income has dropped significantly

Multiple factor point to him hiding money. Trick is proving it. Employer has been subpoenaed. That testimony may help...

Muggle: Your story sounds so much like my BFF's. It's truly exhausting on so many levels

[This message edited by Beyond at 6:38 AM, June 25th (Thursday)]

Catwoman posted 6/25/2020 09:48 AM

It is a LOT more difficult to hide money these days, particularly with the current pandemic as a lot of businesses aren't accepting cash.

You can subpoena his bank account records and you can have a credit report run which should point you to the bank accounts. Been there, done that. If the AP is on any of the accounts, you can subpoena her records also. Sometimes just the threat can make them drop the game. I hope this is the case for your friend.

Cat

Edited to add: you can petition the court to impose sanctions (such as a $100 fine/day) for non-production. If he has been habitually non-responsive, the judges will generally grant it. That tends to shape them up in a hurry.

[This message edited by Catwoman at 9:49 AM, June 25th (Thursday)]

Pandora16 posted 6/25/2020 14:12 PM

A forensic accountant could help

The1stWife posted 6/25/2020 19:25 PM

If you find out he’s under reported in the tax return that is a crime.

So I would get employee records AND the tax return. If they don’t match in terms of income I would use it as leverage against the cheater.

I had a friend who had a bad landlord. Nasty guy. Made them pay in the rent in cash. Gave my friend the IRS number and they reported the landlord for not declaring the rental income.

Landlord was facing huge fines and penalties lol.

You do what you have to do!

Catwoman posted 6/27/2020 17:36 PM

If he has been hiding income from the IRS, there is a possibility that your friend can report this to the IRS and get a BOUNTY for doing so!

Score.

Cat

Beyond posted 6/29/2020 16:07 PM

You know, that's something we hadn't considered, 1stWife and Cat! He hasn't yet done his 2019 taxes but he is required to turn them over each year to my BFF. Will be interesting...

And Pandora - totally agree on forensic accountant! It's just that she's spent in excess of $150,000 (NOT KIDDING) since her divorce many years ago...Endless court battles that she always wins, yet never seems to be awarded attorneys' fees (with a few minor exceptions).

If she can prove he's hiding money, I suspect she'll recoup the tens of thousands that this latest exercise has cost.

The1stWife posted 6/29/2020 22:43 PM

Google IRS reporting person not reporting income.

She needs to know sll her options and this is one.

the company must comply with the W-2 requests etc. otherwise they are facing serious consequences too. Hoping that will help her figure out the true income level.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 5:30 AM, June 30th (Tuesday)]

barcher144 posted 6/30/2020 10:15 AM

I’ve seen one spouse refuse to work to avoid alimony and child support. Or work off the books to avoid paying $ to the ex.

My STBXW is doing this. She is intentionally underemployed to get more child support and alimony. Luckily, my state has laws for this.

Also, according to my attorney, the BEST and LEGAL way to hide money in a divorce is to give it to your attorney as a retainer. You want to hide $50K? Give it to your attorney! Assuming that they are honest, after the divorce... they give you the remaining funds.

Generally, speaking.. this is attorney territory.

Beyond posted 7/1/2020 06:04 AM

OMG Barcher - I had not even considered hiding it via attorney retainer!!

But still...even if he gave the attorney a ton of money, he still earned it, and therefore it would be on his W-2, yes? Hard to say with this ass-hat He ALWAYS has a plan B, C, D...