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About a month ago I brought up to my wife that her AP has a wife.

My fWW knew he did. He'd spoken of her, bitched and moaned about her. She was a ball and chain, controlling, sex depriving bitch from the descriptions my wife's told me he said to her (and I'm going to take a wild guess and assume a lot of that isn't true). He even talked at length of his two boys, which is what really seemed to endear my wife to him initially, as well as him listening about her childhood and lack of a father.

In fact, the first immediate thing he did after both of their two sexual encounters was to get on the phone with his one son and chat about how he was doing. I've found that incredibly creepy, and even feel bad for my wife in a way. He treated her like a useless gutter slut, which she sadly obliged him by acting like one.

I was curious so I asked my fWW if she ever actually thought about that, that he had a wife and family. Like truly realized that these people are real people and not just "his wife and kids". During the A and in the following months since D-Day she says she hadn't.

I find it interesting that what drew her to him (and any of the guys she was trying to get attention from at work Pre-A) was that he was a so called family man. With morals and decency. A wife and kids. The very fact he had these things is what enabled her desire for him to be a mentor for her. Had he lacked a family and kids or didn't seem like a good dad, she wouldn't have cared.

Yet during the A and the aftermath, what she thought he could provide her with and the reason for that ceased to enter her mind.

I asked her if she realized that his wife drives their kids around in that van she did things with him in. The look of shock and disgust in her eyes as that realization hit her after I said it was great yet sad to see. She didn't want to talk about it so I dropped it. I pointed out the creepiness of him calling his child right after having sex with another woman and it bothered her. I asked how she felt realizing that she had an A with a married man and that just as we have been torn asunder she could be the contributing factor to the destruction of that woman and her children's lives. She feels terrible and thinks she's an awful person.

Before I asked though, she hadn't really thought about it.

Last night, while explaining my last ditch effort to contact the man's wife (through not so clever social engineering with a fake Facebook profile, along with posting his info on a cheater outing website - I think the woman knows but damnit I want to speak with her personally), I brought up some things about that subject again. And we talked a bit more about it.

I realized that one of the things that is helping me heal and move on is seeing that she's now understanding the totality of her actions. Not just to our family, but to his. She realizes she not only brought harm onto me and our daughter but also his wife and their sons. No, she isn't responsible for dealing with it or can even do anything about it. Yet seeing that acknowledgement and feeling the sincerity in her remorse even in that avenue is helping shape just how she truly "gets it" to me.

It just got me wondering, has anyone else's WS truly realized that their AP has a BS/family (if they do of course)? Has their reaction to that shaped what you think of them? Has it affected your R? Has it helped change them?

Another curious thing that donned on me the past month was seeing the extreme vitriol and bile some people tossed at their WS's AP/OP around here, while trying to maintain this pristine image of their WS for their own sake. I get where it comes from (and for many it is more than obviously deserved), but then I realized to someone else my wife is a "stupid, useless husband poaching skanky ass dirty slut whorebitch" or what have you. Yet she really isn't. For every WS on here the anger, rage and hate that is spewed at the AP, in many ways it can be easily directed at the WS from someone else.

For me this realization has greatly helped let go of her AP in my mind. I'm not up to, personally, trying to rebuild with my wife and extol her virtues while demonizing someone else that serves me no purpose outside of holding hate inside my being. Which will just eat away with no positive outcome.

Anyways, enough of all that... Thoughts? Discussion?

ETA: WSs are more than welcome to comment if they want, would be insightful to hear.

ETA 2: Thank you to those who actually got the point I was trying to make, and who addressed my questions.

To the rest, harping on about my views, I don't care. You've misinterpreted my point that only seemingly confused gets. You go right ahead and call your OM/OW/OP/AP/WW/WH/WSO/WS/etc. whatever names you want. Asshole, bitch, prick, c***, whore, slut, piece of shit, scumbag, and so on. Be my guest.

Have I come and taken it from you? No. Do I say you can't? No. Did I steal away into the night with your right to be angry or sad? No. Have I somehow deprived you in my simple opinion of your ability to do anything? No.

I just personally don't see the point. Seriously. If you have a problem with that, tough. I'm not saying you can't, I simply said why I don't. It holds the hate close to your heart and lets it sit rotting there. Letting go of hate leads to a better life. Period.

This post was needlessly derailed. The topic title doesn't even match the contents therein nor are people bothering to answer my questions. C'est la vie.

[This message edited by VD2012 at 11:17 PM, September 6th (Thursday)]

My feelings about the OW are in some ways entirely independent of my feelings about my H. In no way have I EVER seen him as pristine and/or faultless. But the fact that he betrayed and hurt me immensely does not take away the fact that she willingly pursued and clung to my H knowing that he was M and had kids who were devastated.

At the time of our last day, if she had apologized to me and my kids, accepted responsibility and established NC for her own dignity, I would have respected that. But she chose to continue calling and texting him, begging him to choose her, telling me that I was an abusive bitch who deserved everything that had happened to me. She had her trailer trash mother call me and make threats of legal action and messing with my job.

My H has fully owned his actions and demonstrates his remorse to me every day. I have loved him for more than 16 years. Whoreible...there is NOTHING Positive to balance out the negative.

One of the hardest things i have faced is that I was on OW. And I deserved whatever the BW felt or thought or said about me. Every bit of it. And that knowledge spurs me to want to be a better person, not to wish the BW would get over it.

BOttom line, your WW has the chance to use this to make changes in her life that will allow her to gain respect for herself, or to sit around moping about what a horrible person she is.

Does Your WS Realize They're Someone Else's OP?

Yes. And it's why I so strongly advocate that people don't take revenge on the AP, they lose sight and focus that their partner is also an AP, assuming of course that they are in a relationship.

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It just got me wondering, has anyone else's WS truly realized that their AP has a BS/family (if they do of course)?

He knew she was married and felt bad for her because she was in a horrible abusive situation (she wasn't), he knew she had a couple of kids. What he didn't know was that she had been married 3-4 at that point, didn't have custody of her older child, she wasn't being abused, and she was literally willing to toss her then one year old child aside to run away with Mr Lucky - if he'd go with her. He was horrified and mortified when he learned of all this information.

I spoke with her then BS and he told me she said she'd let him have the one year old if she could have Mr Lucky and divorce her then BS.

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Has their reaction to that shaped what you think of them?

No because he really didn't know all of this, he only knew what she told him - which was a pack of lies. I know, shocking right?

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Has it affected your R? Has it helped change them?

It affected our R because he felt so sick at the reality of her life and history; and how easily she would toss aside a child. Our kids were older, and he had told her he had NO intention of raising another family.

Change him? hmmm.. I guess it really opened his eyes at how easily he was deceived.

, has anyone else's WS truly realized that their AP has a BS/family (if they do of course)? Has their reaction to that shaped what you think of them?

All too well. Her MOM and his wife were our best friends. She picked up and watched their kids, and used that as an excuse to see MOM! Regarding how it shaped how I think of my fWW... yes, it definitely affected it. Just like I couldn't possibly understand how my friend could betray me by fucking my wife, I couldn't comprehend how my wife betrayed her best friend by fucking her husband. Compartmentalization was part of it, but also just the fucked up, skewed justification they had for their relationship. It makes no sense, isn't real or sustainable, and is morally deranged, but they were "supplements" to each other's marriages.

Another curious thing that donned on me the past month was seeing the extreme vitriol and bile some people tossed at their WS's AP/OP around here, while trying to maintain this pristine image of their WS for their own sake. I get where it comes from (and for many it is more than obviously deserved), but then I realized to someone else my wife is a "stupid, useless husband poaching skanky ass dirty slut whorebitch" or what have you. Yet she really isn't. For every WS on here the anger, rage and hate that is spewed at the AP, in many ways it can be easily directed at the WS from someone else

Yes, it can be very hard to swallow the fact that your WS is just as despicable as the OP. For my wife, this was a major issue for her, specifically in participating here on SI... she would, and still does, get hung up on the bashing of all OPs, because by definition, all waywards are stupid assholes who don't deserve to live (or insert whatever bashing comment you want here). For me, at least in my situation... this may be fucked up BS foggy thinking.... but in a way, I can understand now why my wife had an A. I don't agree with it, don't condone it, and am fucking traumatized by it... but I can almost understand it. She had given up on me, and our marriage. I won't get into the specifics... but the MOM--my ex-BFF... WTF, there is no excuse in the world for his behavior and transgression to me, and our marriage. I will never forgive him, and will likely always actively hate him and want to destroy him. And that is why he is a stupid asshole who doesn't deserve to live, IMO.

I called my husband a whore as many times as I called the OW one the first six months. I hate her because she had been through this in her own marriage and her husband dumped her for his OW. My husband ended it over and over and she blackmailed him. That makes her evil. She knew he was not leaving me, she knew he loved me, and she knew he said I did not deserve it and yet she would not let go. My husband was in the gutter with him so he was no better than her.

WS here.

Yes, I do realize that I am the AP to my AP's wife. During my A, I didn't think about the destruction I was causing her. I thought she was a controlling alcoholic bitch because that is what I was told. Several times. But in reality she was a wife who worked her ass off so her husband wouldn't have to. I wasn't his only AP; it was his wife who informed us that I was one of several women he was f'ing around with. Her email to us was rather calm, not what I expected at all. I do feel great shame to have caused her pain. But I must admit that I don't dwell on that. My BS's pain is my only concern.

And your comment about the many names OP/AP's are called; yes, I have always felt that they could easily be directed at me. I am one of them. It hurts deep down but it is true - I was that person. It makes it terribly difficult reading SI at times, but it also reinforces what I have done.

[This message edited by heartstabber at 3:05 PM, September 6th (Thursday)]

Your wife showed the om bw one side of her. A pretty vile side.

Your wife walked up to the BW, and took a sledge hammer to the BWs life. To expect the BW to EVER think of your wife in any positive way is ridiculous. Your wife made an enemy for life. That is who your wife is to the om BW. Period. Its who your wife decided to be. Period. The om BW is rightfully justified. Period.

You on the otherhand have seen different sides of your wife. Its your choice if the positive outweighs the negative.

I have told my WH what a POS he is for hurting MOW's BH and children. Just as I did not deserve the betrayal and enormous hurt, neither did they. He should be ashamed of himself. He needs to live with that for the rest of his life.

He has owned this and I do believe that he is very sorry for the hurt he caused MOW BH and children.

No question about it, they are BOTH POS for what they so selfishly did.

When I found out that the OW was married it shocked me. I had never thought that my H would do that. I never thought a married woman would look at my H. I often say to H that he should think of OW BH but I doubt he does as he has never apologized to him. My H even had the hide to attend a concert with them during the A.

Double post

[This message edited by Katieisfree at 4:24 PM, September 6th (Thursday)]

No, my WH did not realize he was an OP. Twice over actually, since his AP had two different fiances during their LTA.

In the fog after DD, he could not see how both of them, WH and OW, were pushing away their SOs. He said we were "growing distant", her SO "didn't want her to do her job"...

Um, hello, we were distant because you were dating your co-worker! Her SO noticed her distance and didn't want her spending so much time "at work". Insert deer in headlights look. Those thoughts had never occurred to him.

Apparently a great many thoughts never occurred to him while he was wrapped up in his limerence fog. Two ICs have used the term "infatuation" to describe his feelings for OW. Even as they were spending hours talking, sharing their life stories, growing closer...she was being very clear to him about how messed up her FOO issues are, how immature, selfish, and materialistic she is... and yet he overlooked it all... "for the feeling" he had when he was with her.

WH is now struggling with depression and self esteem issues. He stands to lose his wife, his kids, his standing in the community, and quite possibly his job.

And I can't think of anything bad enough to call him.

Thanks to those who responded, especially WS's. It's always nice to see a variety of perspectives.

Seems people got a bit too hung up on my perspective of name calling. I'm actively trying to be indifferent to her AP. Holding even the tiniest fragment of disdain for him, and that includes even something as simple as calling him a piece of shit, will only negatively affect me. I won't let who he is negatively affect me for the rest of my life, I won't let it drag me down further. And honestly carrying that anger does just that.

But I came to the conclusion that harboring these feelings toward him was inherently nonsensical if I was to carry on with my wife, for me. It created a disconnect. I get how others wouldn't feel that way, even referred to it. It's how I feel. I wouldn't sit her calling her a stupid dirty slut, because it won't do anything to improve anything. So calling him anything equally serves me no purpose.

As for you...

ungracie,

You've shown me the side of you that is needlessly bitter and hostile. How about you cut out your hostility with me?

I am no wayward spouse. Period. I asked and presented an innocent enough inquiry and statement of thought. Period. I'm not extolling the virtues of my wife at his BW's expense. Period.

See how ridiculous that tone is? It is unnecessary and uncalled for.

I never remotely implied that his wife should think positively of mine. Did you even bother reading my post before putting your little rage glasses on? I've actively taken my wife to task almost in defence of his wife. That's the whole point of this post. You should actually read all of it.

How about you head back on down to the Wayward forum where you seem fond of tearing into people? Please stay away from my threads if you have no sense of civility. Thank you.

VD2012,

Please note the following guideline:

FLAMING & ATTACKING: Please refrain from attacking another member, publicly or by using the SI.com Private Message feature. Do not bait or call out others. If you have a problem with a member or a post, you can PM a moderator with your concern.

authenticnow, you have a PM.

My WH absolutely adores kids and just cannot understand someone abandoning their children. Just before DDay, MOW left her BS and her two daughters and left the state. I pointed out to WH that he devastatted our relationship and marriage for the type of person he absolutely loathes. I also told him that his participation in his own infidelity AND hers just encouraged her destructive behavior. I asked him if he ever thought about how his choices would effect her children. Not that losing their mother was HIS fault, but he sure didn't help. He was horrified when I pointed this out. There are just too many things that he did not consider . . . too many people that would be affected that he never ever thought of . . .

I am no wayward spouse. Period. I asked and presented an innocent enough inquiry and statement of thought. Period. I'm not extolling the virtues of my wife at his BW's expense. Period.

See how ridiculous that tone is? It is unnecessary and uncalled for.

I never remotely implied that his wife should think positively of mine. Did you even bother reading my post before putting your little rage glasses on? I've actively taken my wife to task almost in defence of his wife. That's the whole point of this post. You should actually read all of it.

VD2012, I gotta tell you, I felt the same tone from your OP as Ungracie obviously did. I guess I phrased my response a little better or it didn't seem as overtly hostile to you as Ungracie's post.

But, honestly, the feeling I got from your OP seemed that you were feeling a little bit superior to those of us who feel the need to vilify the OP.

This:

Another curious thing that donned on me the past month was seeing the extreme vitriol and bile some people tossed at their WS's AP/OP around here, while trying to maintain this pristine image of their WS for their own sake. I get where it comes from (and for many it is more than obviously deserved), but then I realized to someone else my wife is a "stupid, useless husband poaching skanky ass dirty slut whorebitch" or what have you. Yet she really isn't. For every WS on here the anger, rage and hate that is spewed at the AP, in many ways it can be easily directed at the WS from someone else.

really didn't sit all that well with me. Because it seemed to me that you were suggesting that those of us who verbalize extreme anger/rage/hostility at the OP were also trying to "maintain this pristine image of their WS for their own sake." There wasn't any allowance for the fact that, for some of us, there is plenty of rage, anger, hostility to go around. And as I pointed out in my previous response on this thread, my H has done immeasurable work toward repairing our relationship and making amends for the harm he caused, while OW has done nothing but continue to heap abuse and harm on me and my kids. So I have found a LOT more forgiveness and good feeling for him. Not because I'm trying to maintain a pristine image, but because he has worked to repair the harm he caused.

And this:

then I realized to someone else my wife is a "stupid, useless husband poaching skanky ass dirty slut whorebitch" or what have you. Yet she really isn't. For every WS on here the anger, rage and hate that is spewed at the AP, in many ways it can be easily directed at the WS from someone else.

I think I understand from your followup post that you aren't trying to suggest that BS's feel positively about the OP, but the statement above really sounds like that's what you're suggesting. Because you realize that someone could be referring to your WW as a skanky slut ho or whatever, and that you feel she is not. And it sounds very much like you are chastising us that when we are referring to the OP in such negative terms, we should remember that they may be someone's spouse.

And for me, personally, I don't care. If it hurts the BS's feelings that their WS is considered something nasty by the other BS, that's that BS's issue to unravel. I do not internalize any of the shame or blame for JM's actions. I do not hold OW's BS accountable for her actions. But I do own my own stuff, and as I said earlier, if the BW in my situation as OW still thinks of me as a homewrecking scum, well, that's what I was acting like then.

If this has been a healing part of your journey, to find a place where you don't have any energy to expend towards vilifying the OP in your situation, that's great. But that's not going to be the path for everyone else, and that's okay too.

The AP waged war on the BS's marriage..their life..their soul..and the happiness and security of their children.

While I dont think my FWH is a dirty,disgusting POS whore..I would understand if the Om's BS felt that way about him(Om was single,however). I do think while he was actively cheating on me he was a dirty,disgusting POS though. Not now..but then? Hell yes.

Im glad you are indifferent towards your WW OM. I am too,and I know that helps my recovery. But I completely understand and support the need of any BS to vent or talk hatefully about their WS's AP. For some people it is healing to vent and get the rage out. What works for one person doesnt have to work for me. I dont get to decide what they need to heal.

(((VD2012)))

((((((((ungracie)))))))

[This message edited by confused615 at 9:15 PM, September 6th (Thursday)]

I don't know, my FWW did pretty disgusting things that almost caused our D. And I was pretty mad at her. But she was remorseful, AP was not. So I'm ok with wishing bad things to him. Or them, actually...

ETA: I agree with ungracie. It seems that her words affected you a lot though and I apologize if you take my wordsthis way also. As a BH the least I deserve in this shitty situation is to be able to hate the AP. It's not like I'm fucking married women.

[This message edited by nuance at 10:59 PM, September 6th (Thursday)]

Not until I exposed to the OWHs

I asked my H this on DD. I asked him did he ever feel guilty for stealing what belonged to her H. He said no, he never felt guilty and never thought about him because she told him that she hated her H and that he was extremely abusive to her. She told him that he beat her and she was in fear for her life. He said he felt like they didn't have a marriage so he wasn't doing anything to the man. I didn't agree with his accessment. I vented pretty bad words at him about what he did to her H regardless of what kind of marriage he thought they had.

Once all of her lies were exposed, he felt like all kinds of a fool. Her BH was not abusive to her at all. She used that as a ploy to get close to my H. Apparently, she used this ruse to lure several men away from their wives. That's how she got most of her husbands.