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I was reading someone's question here. They explained thier story, she had an EA. nothing physical. I unfortunately had both. I had a few online EA's before I ever had a PA. But it seems to me the PA is more betrayal than an online EA. So how can the feelings on both parts be the same.

Just looking for some explanations. I didn't feel as guilty until I began the PA.

WW 47

BH 49

D day 1-27-13

The common interpretation is that they are equally as painful to the BS.

The fact that you assigned more guilt to the PA may mean that you had pushed past another level in your justifications - ie "Since we're not touching it's not actually cheating."

The fact that we go so far as to classify EA's and PA's mean that we acknowledge that there are two somewhat correlated yet separate types of betrayal to deal with here.

What should matter most of all here, Mazola, is how your BH feels about this right now. No amount of quantifying or qualifying here is going to alleviate his pain. Look to how to heal yourself as well as his heart for the path out of this mess. You're not going to get a pass for what type of A you had here.

Hi

Thanks for reply.

We are going to MC and I am starting IC soon. I have taken responsibility for everything and am trying to understand my why's and how's (although I know it never justifies an A.) I can see how an EA could be on the slippery slope towards a PA.

And from what I read here the pain is the same for either type. I do understand that they are both betrayals. But the Physical seems to really cross the line to me.

I have begun reading books, right now am reading "Not Just Friends". Trying to work this out. I am fairly new here. D Day only a month passed. And I am realizing what a long path this will be. But I am so happy we are going to MC just to try to understand and figure out how we go on from here.

I know.

Genuine

Transparancy

I am trying to do all I need to to help him also. But I know I need to fix me.

Also my earlier EA's never became PA's. The PA began at work, not online. so to me more REAL. I believe the PA did start out as an EA (the others were online, this was face to face). We started out as Just Friends (there was no initial attraction for me) and discussed things we shouldn't have (marriages).

Wow that book knows a lot.

[This message edited by Mazola at 1:03 AM, March 2nd (Saturday)]

I think it's a really big step to be headed to counseling and reading up on why this happened and how to heal your spouse.

Another big step will be when you can replace "to me" with "to him."

Your feelings and outlook counts to an extent, but his mind, heart, and world were destroyed by this. What matters to him is what matters when it comes to the A. Trying to push your perspective on him is trying to minimize the damage caused. All that can be measured from the aftermath of the A is the damage to your marriage and the pain in his soul. You don't get to quantify how this came to pass. It's so very critical that you show him that you take complete ownership for every piece, and that you want to be there for him - listen to him - show him the sympathy and empathy that he needs to stop his world from spinning.

You've got a great start with all the work you're willing to do. Take that next step and open yourself to his perspective. It's scary and it hurts, but it's necessary to be a good partner. You can do it.

Just a quick description...you get physical with someone, lets say it was not emotional just the physical. You have sex, touch, kiss whatever makes you feel good physically but that's all. Now that's bad, really bad for anyone to find out and it cuts deeply that you'd be willing to do that with someone else that's not your spouse. It hurts unimaginably.

Now lets say you have an emotional affair with no physical. You detach from your partner. All the things that would bring the two of you closer, the things that you should be sharing with your partner you are instead sharing with this OP. Perhaps they are innocent convos at first but you're talking to them about things you keep from your partner or you're talking to them about you're partner. Suddenly this person knows more about your emotions, feelings, opinions and so on then your partner does. Maybe I love yous are exchanged, maybe you just have an emotional connection to them that you don't have with your partner. Lets say this is what your partner finds. This can equally destroy. This is about attacking your connection with your partner without ever physically touching someone. What makes it worse is that many who do this see nothing wrong in what they've done because they haven't physically touched someone. You have still violated your relationship.

I don't know if that helps. I hope you can see why both of these would be so hurtful and that the level of pain is on how your BS reacts to these things. I'm glad your in IC and reading. Continue to take care of yourself and grow from all this.

I think that for a woman the EA is worse than a PA....if you are talking about ILYs and happy ever afters.

For men, the physical aspect is ten times worse.

To me both suck.

I think it's good you're going to counseling.

I think it's probably good to ask your BH what hurt him more?

Do you feel guilt about PA because you did things you wouldn't have with your H?

As a woman, the sharing (EA) hurt me more. I could 'understand' just sex (PA). I was very angry about the emotional part.

I was thinking about this another way.

There's a child about 3 years old in a basement. A tiny window lets in the light. There's no-one to keep her company, there never has been. For as long as she can rememeber she's been given shelter, food and drink. She's never been harmed physically.

She thinks she knows why she's down there. She's told all the time she gets brought stuff she needs, it's because she ugly. She's a disgrace to her parents and so she has to be keep here by herself. She's told she's lucky they're not starving her, or abusing her in some way. She's told she doesn't get to see people because they can't bear to see other people's reactions.

There's no mirror. She's normal.

Another child, same age has her family around her, but everyday her carer's stub cigarettes out on her, hit her and sometimes sexually abuse her. When she cries she's held and soothed; she's reassured it's not her fault, it's just something she has to endure.

Which child's pain is worse? Which is more worthy of empathy? One's purely emotional torture; one physical.

You cannot know what is worse for someone. Every pain we experience is relative.

I had an EA which had just started to become a PA. I kissed the AP and was caught by my BH. He now has PTSD and suffers depression. He has flahsbacks. Sure he talks to be about the pain of when he saw me and the OM kiss. But the real one that has him shaking and so so hurt, is the memory of me sitting on our sofa, telling him I missed the OM. That's the kicker. The emotional betrayal tore him apart.

There is no worse nor better pain. Only pain and betrayal. The WS mentality is excellent at justifying. I mean really A*. That's why you wouldn't have felt as guilty in an EA - "it's just friends; I'm not doing anything wrong; we haven't *done* anything"- sound familiar? You can't do that in a PA. They grey are just got the contrast cranked up to way more black and white.

It's not a competition. I was raped as a little kid. The later on at school someone set me up as the fall guy for a really horrid stunt...the whole school assumed it was me that put dog shit in the wellies of another kid I'd had an argument at school the night before. It wasn't. I found that latter incident way more hurtful because I didn't understand WHY someone would want to do that to me. I knew the guy that raped me was fucked up. He abused my mum for years and I saw that. I wasn't the problem, he was. So I got that and was able to deal with it and move on. The school stuff I never got. I never bullied anyone so why pick on me? I just took the blame to get the priviledges restored to everyone, but I never got it. The "pain" I felt was greater for that.

The answer is you'll never know. But your BH will. Ask him - which is worse? Then support him with whatever he needs. That's actually all that matters.

I'm glad you are reading Not Just Friends. I hope you get some invaluable information from reading it.

The fact that you are posing this question tells me that you are being a bit defensive about the EA. Your line was the PA. You need to look at your justifications.

The fact of the matter is, the worst thing that has ever happened to you is the worst thing that has ever happened to you. That pain is the worst you have ever felt either way. Think if it this way. A man is at risk of losing both his legs from a tragic accident. He comes to after surgery and the doctor says "Good news! We only had to take one of your legs! Isn't that fantastic?" I don't think he will be sitting there thanking his lucky stars that at least he has one leg. He will still be angry that he lost the one. He will still need to recover from that.

You will need to listen to how your BH feels about both. His perspective may change over time as he processes the level of hurt. I know for my BH what cuts deeply is the fact that there was a time that I had giddiness, excitement, nervousness for a man other than himself. That he isn't the last person that I shared that "specialness" with. I put it in quotes because looking back it wasn't special at all. I hate the fact that I took that away from him for something so cheap. I hate the fact that there is a part of our M that he wasn't a part of and had no idea. It's grossly unfair to him.

In the long and short of it, it's not yours to decide which is worse. It's yours to listen to him and empathize with how he feels about the whole of it.

it's personal. FWH had both an online EA first then the EA/PA. I found out about the EA after the PA. They both hurt just on different levels. He told both OW he loved them. He told both lies about me. He devoted hours and hours to feed the A, taking time and energy away from our M.

The EA removed any boundaries he had. The PA was maybe more intrusive into my personal space because she was in my home.

It's not the sex, the I love you, it's the betrayal and the lies that hurt the most.

My BW has said that she thinks whatever the type of A, it will be the most hurtful to that BS. It fits our situation.

Look at the "levels" of EA's...mine barely crossed the line into sexual just one time over a five month period. Should that mean my BW doesn't have a right to hurt has badly as the other BS's here?

It is very personal for each situation. For you, it matters only what your BH feels. I think WOES is on to something, that maybe you're trying to find a way to minimize the damage from your EA's by putting more emphasis on the PA. I'm not saying you aren't taking responsibility, but I think it is quite common during the healing process for a WS to find "something" that might make things seem less bad than they really are. So that is what you should be looking toward, understanding that it doesn't matter what type of A you had, they damaged your BH all the same. As you work on you, and he works on himself, and you both start to heal, you can work out the particulars of what was worse for your own situation.

I hope that this is ok for me to post as a BS.

As a male, I can firmly say that to me, the PA is much, much worse. Haunting, is the word I will use. The EA I can conceptualize, to a degree. That's not to say that I'm giving it the 'ok'. Using the slippery slope metaphor, I think most people have stood at the top of that slope and felt the *tug* of being pulled downhill. I can understand how, with bad boundaries and the right (wrong?) set of relationship circumstances, you can go from platonic friend, to oversharing personal info, to admitting romantic feelings (while not acting on them), etc., and so on. 'NJF' pretty much spells out exactly how it happens.

I've met attractive people who I found interesting while I've been married, but while I've had problems with being flirty (not excusing, just being honest), I've always been very, very careful about not complaining/talking about my married life in any negative light with the opposite sex. I always felt it sent the 'wrong message'...as though complimenting someone on their looks doesn't. Logic fail. That doesn't mean that the temptation to do so wasn't there, only that for some reason within myself, it felt more wrong inside my head to discuss my marital issues or problems with my wife than it did to tell a young lady she was pretty or something else flirty, and that was the boundary I chose not to cross. However, my WW was devastated when she found me being flirty on FB, especially since she always felt I didn't compliment her enough as it was. Devastated. And as a WH (at that point) I didn't have SI and handled the situation mostly like an idiot. I did NC, and have maintained for 3 years, but as far as being understanding about how long it took her to heal, I screwed it up.

When I caught my wife having a EA back in May, I was really upset, but not totally shocked. I was never around due to school, work, and an internship. Again, I could understand how it happened, to a degree. However, when it went underground in August and became a PA, it's been much, MUCH harder for me to shake. It's not just the mind movies associated with the PA, it's HOW DAMN HARD she had to work to make it happen. I never really considered for a second having a full-blown EA/PA, for a lot of reasons.

I'm kind of lazy, and they seem like a lot work.

I have a hard enough time figuring out/dealing with my wife's emotions as they relate to me, and to deal with two people's feelings, hopes, dreams, etc., seems exhausting, frankly. In fact, when I discovered my WW's PA, one of the first things she said to me after we established NC was how relieved she was that she no longer had to deal with juggling two people's feelings. I didn't empathize.

Don't get me wrong, the thought of how it would affect and destroy my wife and family would be the foremost reason, I was just listing others as well.

Again, as a guy, I think it's the PA that haunts me the most. Maybe it's related to some neanderthal portion of my brain that views my WW as 'submitting' or 'giving in' to another man, and as him 'besting' me in some sort of evolutionary competition. He 'took what was mine' and so, in the recesses of my mind 'he must be more evolutionarily fit (better)' than me.

In my situation I find the PA a lot harder to deal with than the EA. Maybe part of the difficulty in dealing with the PA is the mind movies. With the EA there isn't stuff I can really imaginebut boy-oh-boy can I imagine the PA! I also feel that with the PA my WH gave the OW things that were meant to be special just between us... he gave her a part of us... that hurts so much.

The EA is a breakdown of effort and commitment to your spouse, and drives wedges between you both. Emotional investment, communication and spiritual connection is stolen from the primary relationship and invested in elsewhere. It like trying to save for a family vacation, your spouse is putting money into the account every week, but your money is going into an "Week alone in Aruba" account.

On some level, your spouse will feel that the contributions are not being matched, and this will cause hurt and anger, insert wedge.

Their attitude can change, causing arguments and fights, insert wedge.

Eventually, the wedges cause the relationship to split.

We started out as Just Friends (there was no initial attraction for me) and discussed things we shouldn't have (marriages).

That was already an EA.

For me the PA is the worst pain. I can't seem to shake the mind movies and thoughts of them together.

The EA is disturbing to me but fWW never got to the ILY stage. She missed him and kept asking him if she made him mad when when he didn't respond right away, but I never saw an ILY (She says she/he never said it).

I think if the EA had made it to the ILY stage, it would at least be equally painful as the PA...maybe worse.

For me the PA is the worst pain. I can't seem to shake the mind movies and thoughts of them together.

Yes. The trauma, daily pain and haunting visuals are the worst.

I think if the EA had made it to the ILY stage, it would at least be equally painful as the PA...maybe worse.

Well, my wife's DID reach the ILY stage, and to be honest, despite the sex, this is where most of my rage comes from. Why? Because their (WW and POSOM) idea of "love" didn't require any goddamned effort. Zero. Especially on his part. My WW complained all the time about me not doing enough of the house-work type stuff, and this guy has no car, no money, and does nothing except play video games, smoke weed, and drink. If she had cheated on me with some dude who came over and knocked out the dishes, laundry, mopping and dusting before sitting down to seduce/be seduced by my wife, it'd at least make some sort of logical sense to me. It's an affront and insult to the idea of real love that these two acted like fucking 8th graders emotionally and believed what they had was some special sort of love. 'Tred' posted this in another forum somewhere, and I copied it onto my computer because I liked it so much:

Uh huh. Must really suck to be him, pining away for the woman he cares so much about, who gives him all

the free no strings attached sex, adores him, inflates his ego, gives him something to brag about to his buddies,

and all he has to do is tell her he cares and will wait for her. Because that's just how nice he is. Right.

What's the term I'm looking for? Player? User? No wait, it's piece of shit asshole.

Ask your wife - what is the sweetest thing he has ever done for you? How many times has he held you when

you are sick? What has he done for you that he couldn't do to a blow up doll or inflatable farm animal? One thing for

sure, I'll never underestimate the power of only having to tell someone you care for them and understand them again.

It's so much easier than actually having to do something for them.

That's the wrong focus. The same thought processes and patterns are used. It's that green light you gave yourself to enable you to make choices destructive to your self respect and integrity. EA/PA, flirting, fantasizing, all born from the same place. That's why some that believe thoughts don't matter only actions are walking on cracked ice thinking its frozen solid.

Rather than comparing, look at your thought processes, your patterns, your coping skills. You can, if you take the time and dig, find these in place long before any ea existed in your life

uncertainone-

That's the wrong focus. The same thought processes and patterns are used.

That's why I label myself MH, even though I had no intention of pursuing the ones I was flirting with. The slope is slippery, and the progression from one step, to the next, to the next...well, you get the idea. It's too easy to tell oneself that 'this' type behavior is ok because it's not 'that' type of behavior. But when one can lead to another, the root cause is more important.