SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I was going to post this in Blake's Codependent Cycle thread because it's relevant to what's being discussed, but I didn't want people to be put off by the word Codependent in the title of that thread and think that it doesn't pertain to them because they aren't codependent. This is also about Counterdependency and the two go together.

Read his thread for some more background if you wish. http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=531885&AP=21

Not long after dday when we were doing so much reading on various subjects I stubbled upon information about the Push/Pull dynamic. The Distancer/Pursuer. The Love Addict/Love Avoidant. The Codependent and Counterdependent. Whatever you want to call. I'd never heard of Codependent before and even less info was out there about Counterdependency, but I see now it being talked about more often.

That Push/Pull cycle had been a big part of my husband's and my marriage. One of us in one role and the other in the other and then it seemed like we'd change places and start over again in reverse. It kept things flowing without creating too much of a rut, but we couldn't get to healthy or to interdependence.

Codependent and Counterdependent are extremes of the same spectrum that distance people from true intimacy. That's why I like the box reference that Blake has supplied in a couple codependent threads. When it's never been modelled for you as a child, interdependence in a relationship can feel so foreign and scary at first, let alone knowing how to actually achieve it.

Anyway, I just remembered a good article (parts quoted below) I read by Robert Burney who wrote the Dance of Wounded Souls (I've not read that) and thought I share further explanation about the differences between CoD and CounterD incase anyone else finds themselves in these roles. Don't let the labels freak you out, it's just a place to start, to learn more and move on from there.

A classically codependent person, when asked about themselves, will reply by talking about the other.  Obviously, before someone with this type of behavioral defense can experience any self-growth, they have to first start opening up to the idea that they have a self.   The process of owning self is frustrating and confusing.  The concept of having boundaries is foreign and bewildering.  It is an ongoing process that takes years.  It unfolds in stages.  There is always another level of the onion to peel.  So, for someone whose primary pattern is classically codependent, the next level of growth will always involve owning self on some deeper level.  A very important part of this process is owning the right to be angry about the way other's behavior has impacted our lives - starting in childhood.

Classic counterdependent behavior focuses completely on the self and builds huge walls to keep others out.  It is hard for those of us who exhibit classically 'counterdependent' behavior patterns to even consider that we may be codependent. We have lived our lives trying to prove that we don't need others, that we are independent and strong.  The counterdependent is the other extreme of the spectrum.  If our behavior patterns have been primarily counterdependent it means that we were wounded so badly in childhood that in order to survive we had to convince ourselves that we don't need other people, that it is never safe to get close to other people.

Each of us has our own spectrum of behavioral defenses to protect us from being hurt emotionally.  We can be codependent in one relationship and counterdependent in another - or we can swing from co to counter - within the same relationship.  Often, someone who is primarily counterdependent will get involved with someone who is even more counterdependent and then will act out the codependent role in that particular relationship - the same can happen with two people with primarily codependent patterns.

Both the classic codependent patterns and the classic counterdependent patterns are behavioral defenses, strategies, designed to protect us from being abandoned.  One tries to protect against abandonment by avoiding confrontation and pleasing the other - while the second tries to avoid abandonment by pretending we don't need anyone else.  Both are dysfunctional and dishonest. 

snip

The way the dynamic in a dysfunctional relationship works is in a "come here" - "go away" cycle.  When one person is available the other tends to pull away.  If the first person becomes unavailable the other comes back and pleads to be let back in.   When the first becomes available again then the other eventually starts pulling away again.  It happens because our relationship with self is not healed.  As long as I do not love myself then there must be something wrong with someone who loves me - and if someone doesn't love me than I have to prove I am worthy by winning that person back.  On some level we are trying to earn the love of our unavailable parent(s) to prove to ourselves that we are worthy and lovable.

What is normal and natural in romantic relationships in this society is for a person whose primary fear is abandonment to get involved with someone whose primary fear is being smothered/losing self.  The person with abandonment fears reacts to shows of independence on the part of the other as if the other were abandoning them.  That causes them to become more needy and clinging - which causes the other person to pull away - which causes the first person to cling more - which causes the other to pull away more.  Eventually the person with abandonment fears gets angry and disgusted and pulls back into themselves - which to the other makes it safe to come back and plead to be let back in.  And after a short honeymoon period the dance can start all over again.

snip

It is very boring and incredibly painful to keep repeating dysfunctional relationship patterns.  The way to stop repeating those patterns is to start healing the wounds that we suffered in childhood.  A big part of this process is awakening to the reality that it is not our fault that our relationships haven't worked out.  We were set up to fail to get our needs met in relationships by the unhealthy environments we grew up in, by the dysfunctional and dishonest definitions and role modeling that we experienced.  We were powerless to do things any differently than we did them until we started to examine our patterns and discover the ways in which our childhood experiences have been running our lives.

One of the most important steps in learning what Love really is - in starting to Love ourselves in healthy ways - is to start working on forgiving ourselves for being little kids who were wounded by being raised by people who were wounded when they were little kids.

I'm so glad this topic has come up. It is so pertinent to my journey right now, and obviously others. I've gotten to the place of being able to identify the codependent and counter dependent behavior (and it has gone on in every relationship in my life ); but I have no concept of what healthy interdependence really looks like. Anyone find a good resource? Not trying to hijack your thread DixieD, and can start another if it seems to be veering too far astray...

I don't think that's a threadjack Althea. All relevant.

I know I was questioning my behavior recently, could it be healthy and interdependent when for so long my go-to way of dealing with things was CounterD and distancing? For the record I think it was more interdependent But how will I know it when it happens? It's so new and strange and different from the past.

I figure time will prove it too. There will be an internal struggle while learning things like boundaries, and probably an internal struggle on many things for well, maybe, forever. But if the new patterns repeat over time and I can recognize that, positive changes must be taking place.

Hey Dixie

This pretty much describes our M for the past twenty some years, and then throw in his first EA on top of it.

We have done the dance of co and counter and swapping places for years. This is something that I realize now and really struggle to break the habit. I am striving for true intimacy and find it hard to know what that truly looks like, because of course I have never really seen it. But I do think that what we have now is very different than what we have ever had in the past.

Breaking this dance is something that each partner has to be truly mindful about, don't you think? Especially when it has gone on for so long.

I also see some of this being repeated in my children's relationships and it is hard for me to watch. I think I know of some new books now to get them.

I have the same issue. I *think* my behavior is more interdependent than independent; but then WH seems to have swung into the codependent role a bit in response, which makes me question my actions

Our MC has suggested Hold Me Tight, which deals with the issue of the distanced/pursuer. I haven't started it, but WH says it resonates with him.

Seriously, if I had a dollar for every self help book I've read since Dday...

Thanks for posting this Dixie!

It's funny, I was just talking to H this morning about how Blake's thread made me think of an article my IC gave us to read about inundation/abandonment and how we really need to read it. I think your "snips" are very similar. Also, I'm one who has been very turned off by the term "co-dependent" and I shy away from reading about it for the most part. But to be honest, that first part you quoted was me to a T pre dday. I can happily say that it isn't me anymore though (at least, much less so). Hooray for personal growth.

A very important part of this process is owning the right to be angry about the way other's behavior has impacted our lives - starting in childhood.

This has been huge for me! ^^

As for the push/pull, it's something I've talked about in IC a fair bit and she concurs with that author I think, that in a loving and healthy relationship the wounds of childhood can be healed.

We're also reading "Hold Me Tight" and it really speaks to both of us.

Brilliant post. So thought-provoking...

I can certainly see a lot of counterdependent behaviours in the way I related to my husband in my pre-DDay marriage. I needed him to need me, but I held myself back from needing him.

Since DDay I have been forced to acknowledge that I clearly DID need him, did rely on him, did love him, was vulnerable to being hurt by him... even though I had tried to convince myself otherwise. It came as a shock to me, as I honestly didn't feel that I was THAT emotionally connected to my husband - my reactions on finding out about his betrayal proved otherwise. Even my husband has said that he had NO IDEA I loved him that much. Going to have to do some journalling and thinking about all of this.

I have no concept of what healthy interdependence really looks like.

^^ this exactly. I have never seen a healthy interdependent marriage modelled in either my husband's family or mine. I wouldn't know what it looks like! I am trying to figure out what I believe mature love to be (got started on that after reading a blakesteele post) This is something I am working on and would love recommendations of good books.

Thanks for this thread DixieD

Just re-read the article snippets and this one jumped out and demanded to be re-quoted.

One of the most important steps in learning what Love really is - in starting to Love ourselves in healthy ways - is to start working on forgiving ourselves for being little kids who were wounded by being raised by people who were wounded when they were little kids.

Brought tears to my eyes. I love that it says "by being raised by people who were wounded when they were little kids" because I (and H) struggle with not wanting to play the blame game. This pulls the blame out of it for me.

<-----picture is under Counterdependent in dictionary.

We have done so much work and come so far. Occasionally we'll fall back into the old patterns, but almost always one of us will snap out pretty quickly and that pulls the other right back out as well. Being part of a mature, loving, authentic relationship is still kind of weird, really. We aren't always successful, but being mindful of all of this has been so incredibly helpful.

As an aside, I don't get why people equate knowledge with blame. Identifying where our patterns have come from just move us forward, there is no blame there. My parents did the best they could, so did dh's. We have done the best we can with our kids. But that's not to say we don't joke that the college funds could also be used as therapy funds some day.

Rebreather- I think you don't equate it because you're already seeing it in the healthy way. The other way is more like "It's not my fault I'm an asshat, my parents neglected me and I never learned how to be a good person. Poor me that my parents did such a bad job but it's their fault I am how I am, not mine, there's nothing I can do about it."

We (H and I) are gun shy about it because a few of his siblings did therapy and came out of it so self centred and entitled it just makes us want to puke. So there's a fear in us that we may inadvertently end up as whining "poor me-ers" like them.

It's just something in general I don't understand, because I really do see things differently.

That said, if you guys don't want to end up that way, I'm pretty sure you won't. Therapists aren't like, hypnotists, lol, making you cluck like a chicken against your will. I think you are safe, Morhurt.

Always good to see you Rebreather. Both yours and my picture, must be why I can relate to your posts so closely.

Occasionally we'll fall back into the old patterns, but almost always one of us will snap out pretty quickly and that pulls the other right back out as well.

We notice this too. A while ago I was telling my husband what I would do in a certain situation, which I shouldn't have been doing in the first place, because it was his situation to deal with. He said -- That's conflict avoiding. Dammit, he was right. How did he get so smart? In the past he was Mr. ConflictAvoidant and now he was analyzing the situation in detail to NOT do that and here I was suggesting it. Oops! I was impressed. The key is we discuss various things in detail now, when before there was very little awareness and even less follow-through.

TG, I remember all the conversations we had about this and how our spouses were similar too. And we are all moving through it. Awesome, isn't it?

Morhurt, I'm just curious why the term CoD turns you off so much? Don't feel you need to answer, I just know there are others who feel the same way as you do.

Althea, getting back to your question about resources. I have soooo many books here, and many I haven't read.... yet.

I went into the marriage books after dday, but I needed to focus on my own childhood issues first and I'm not done with that yet, maybe never will be. Things about abandonment, and I know you mentioned Claudia Black's Changing Course. Journey to Abandonment to Healing is another. Books on ACOA have helped personally. They explain patterns/behaviors that are set up in childhood and they are related to any family of dysfunction, not strictly just those which dealt with alcoholism. Toxic Parents and Emotional Blackmail by Susan Howard. The Shame That Binds by John Bradshaw (and he has many others about family).

Early on to just get a basic understanding about the patterns/dynamics, we read Love Obsession (or addiction, can't remember) by Pat Love. CoD No More of course. Stuff about passive aggressiveness and emotionally unavailable men, Mother-emeshed men and the problems that can cause in marriages.

Some others I've read or I've heard about working towards healthy marriages specifically that come to mind are:

Books on boundaries by Cloud and Townsend

Hold Me Tight, as was mentioned.

Books by Harville Hendrix such as Getting the Love you Want. And before you can even get to accepting that love, Receiving Love and why it's hard for some people to even accept love.

Books about intimacy and what it is, like Seven Levels of Intimacy

The Seven Principles of Marriage by Gottman.

And we attended Retrouvaille. Religious aspects aside, it discussed FOO and roles and conflict but mostly it helped me to understand, identify and discuss feelings in a way that I wouldn't have been able to do had I not learned it there. And that work with feelings has helped us connect and reconnect and be more aware of each other and ourselves.

We check in regularly with the other one now to see how they are doing/feeling instead of getting lost in our own worlds when life gets busy for example.

HTH.

Thank you DixieD! I own or have read almost all of those books, which makes me feel like I'm on the right track. I bought Codependent No More today and plowed through it. I had to cringe out how much of myself I saw in it. I STRONGLY fought that label for many months after Dday. It is actually this forum that has softened me on my stance and ultimately pushed me to look hard at what I was protesting. In reality, it makes total sense as it is ALL I was modeled as a child. Weirdly, my mother who is one of the most codependent people on the face of the earth, used to tell me I was being codependent and use it as a way of justifying the fact that she basically neglected me

Rebreather, DixieD and TG, I take a tremendous amount in comfort in the fact that you all seem to have worked out how to have healthy, counter dependent marriages without any real life examples to model it after. Sometimes I feel like I am in healthy relationship Kindergarten; so it is nice to see that others have had the hard work pay off sooner rather than later. I'm really happy for all of you.

(((DixieD)))

Smart intelligent post. Well done!!!!

Journeys and wisdoms are similar.

We did Retrouvaille. Sadly, we did not stick with the Dialoguing.

Counterdependent---brilliant term and description. That suggested "source" defined is close to spot on for my wife. The come here go away? First therapist drew a circle....dot in middle was my wife. Arrows in and out were drawn next. That was me. Never heard the term counter dependent.... But really like it!

That living proving to others you don't need anyone? My wife, while dating, told me she wanted kids but not so sure she wanted (needed) a husband. Pretty telling NOW......I thought it cool and healthy back then.

You rock DixieD!!!!

God is with us all.

Thanks Althea. It's nice to be included in the company of Rebreather and TG. They've both helped me a lot in my time on SI. You are on the right path. Keep it up, it pays off

Blake, I remember suspecting counterdependency with your wife after reading some of your posts early on, because she sounded a lot like me and I knew I could be counterdependent. I wondered if you two passed that ball back and forth or if she swung from CounterD to CoD, as I have, after she posted in the Wayward forum.

Dialoguing is tough, especially at first, but I encourage you to get back to it. There is no wrong way. You will learn and improve with it as you go along. I suspect your wife struggles with identifying feelings, and it can help. I still struggle at times.

How are you feeling?

Fine.

Fine is not a feeling.

But I'm fine, that's how I've feeling.

When we've stopped dialoguing, forget or get busy etc -- we notice a difference/a shift and must make an effort to get back to it. It's that important. It sounds like you (finally) found a good therapist too.

This post really REALLY hit home. Anyone surprised?

Admit it, you just want to hang out with the cool kids.

I'll gladly share in your dysfunction.

Omg^^^^^

You and rebreather both have helped me quite a bit while I have been here at SI.

Dang DixieD.....you followed us closely to remember details!!! Thanks for caring.

As I ponder this new-to-me term of counter dependence.....more things are fitting.

When my wife told her sister about her A (before I had a DD) her sisters advice was to just stop her A and sort things out. End of story. As if my wife had the power all on her own to fix herself. Her sister believed she did too.....played right into what my wife wanted to hear. Result was the A continued and multiple DD's.

The point is......there is a real sense from her FOO that they need no one. Starchily independent (counter dependent) in both her and her sister.

Back to me.....my brother has the same abandonment fears I do. He could not really decipher or see how destructively I was choosing that first two months......as it didn't logically make sense to him but emotionally it kinda did. He is D and has zero interest in another relationship. His walls are reinforced due to the pain of his wife leaving him....which rolled up and back to that childhood pain......

Soooooooo

Cycles can be broken. It is exhausting scary work.....which is why we didn't break out of them sooner.

Counter dependence......interesting.

Adultery seems to really fit the voids within a counter dependent person doesn't it? A relationship, by it's very nature, that can only ever get so deep. My wife could play and have fun.....fooling herself that it was more than it was to enable sex to take place, but knowing full well she could take it or leave it as SHE desired.

"He could take me or leave me" was what she told me she liked about her AP. No commitment = safe for a counter dependent person. A kind of fail-safe, risk-management kinda thing.

The facade my wife created was an extension of her desire to protect and wall herself off.....something she had to do to survive childhood. But it had that extra kick of hormones and forbidden fruit feel that gave it the appearance that it was a mutually healthy relationship......not the singularly selfish act that adultery is. It was fresh an exciting. AP helped her believe it was not her that was the problem....it was me. Or the dynamic we created. Look how happy and confirtable she was while in her affair.

Walls on both sides though right? Why didn't I have sex with my very willing girlfriends in high school? That's a question I wanted an answer to in my latest therapy session. I used porn from an early age, had a "weird sexual experience" (therapist says it was abuse)......so why not use girls? I had all the making to use them, right?

Therapist looked at me with a "no duh you didn't have sex with them" look on her face. She then said...."full on sex was real comitment. Which meant you would be really abandoned. It scared the hell out of you. Porn was SAFE. Porn was COMFORTABLE."

I had a "whoa" moment. It clicked. Walls were within me too. See? No "good" side to this destructive cycle.

Wish we were all men and this was a BBQ.....fascinating. So thought provoking.

Peace

[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:01 AM, May 29th (Thursday)]