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An interesting statement from Mr Psych recently following viewing a movie that triggered in him remorse, guilt, regret and miscellaneous negative feelings and memories that he then shared with me: "the emotional closeness we share now is much more important than the hot sex we had early in our recovery" (referring to an intense period of HB beginning days after DDay1 and lasting for several months).

What is interesting to me is to reflect back on this time. We didn't yet have emotional intimacy, but we could "do" sex, so that's what we did. And with that our emotional connection grew. Days and days, hours and hours in bed making love, talking, talking, making love. (One outcome of this period was an awareness of the state of the dust covering the ceiling fan in our bedroom!)

And then we hit a stage (maybe 6 months out) where I was piecing together longer lengths of time without a meltdown. And as things felt too "comfortable" it seemed I'd start triggering and "create" a fight that inevitably ended with us back in bed, again for days afterward talking, crying, consoling one another. So it appears that sex was the glue we used to keep us together during those horrible, awful early months of our R. A way to create closeness when I feared we were drifting apart.

Today, sex isn't quite as hot as it was during HB and even the months thereafter. I think early on I was "trying hard" to please him. Not comfortable to admit, but I think that would be an honest statement. Now, not so much. But what we have is a growing closeness and intimacy that was lacking in our marriage for years prior to his As. I do know that sex is important to Mr Psych, mainly for the emotional connection it creates between us. But it was reassuring in some small way to hear him say that it really is the emotional intimacy that he's craving more than the physical intimacy on it's own. At least for me, it's an important realization (and one I wasn't entirely not in touch with, but it is now brought home in a new way).

Any thoughts on the role of sex and intimacy in your R? Sometimes I feel like an alien, clueless on how "normal" people relate in marriages, as our marriage was dysfunctional on several levels. Still trying to understand what "healthy" is

you know, when I read the title of this post I expected the draft version of some sort of erotic novel

It sounds like he's making a lot of progress.

Sorry to have half-disappointed, NTV!

I do believe he's making a lot of progress. As angry as I can be with him some days, I'm also quite impressed by the changes he's making. He tells me often that he knows I still have doubts about him, and that he's okay with that. He knows it's the price he must pay, his job to convince me through his actions. Honestly, my doubts about him are slowly residing, although I still feel a need to keep my guard up in some ways.

All part of the process toward authentic (and hopefully lasting) R.

Lol, NTV! You're on fire lately.

Psychmom, I honestly thought this would be about what they thought they had before vs the emotional intimacy in our marital sex. That particular thing is my struggle.

For now, sex is a sort of glue. I still struggle with my feelings. It's a work in progress.

Hi psychmom, I don't know what normal is either but I could have written exactly what you wrote. We're 3 years out and I feel like the HB sex was our glue too. I now feel we are back into a "normal" life but much more emotionally connected

demolishedinside, maybe there's something in my post that might help you process the struggles you're having? Maybe?

I'm thinking about the preference many men and women have for emotional intimacy and closeness over "hot sex" (whatever that really means ). Our wayward spouses may say the sex was "hot" or "great" with the OW, but really? Then why are they back home with us?

My point is that sex alone is not the be all and end all for most healthy people. And I think WS who are being given a chance by the brave, intelligent BS here on SI are among the "healthier" ones. Might it be that once the fog has cleared what they really value and cherish is emotional closeness with us, the person they feel most connected to, truly love, (yes, also have hurt immensely)? Sex is more about building closeness and sharing intimacy and love (or should be) than about mindblowing orgasms or bendy feats of Olympian proportions. Sex is "easy", emotional closeness, not as easy.

While it can be difficult to believe our fWHs when they tell us that what they have with us now is preferable to what they had with their AP, I honestly believe that often is the case. Maybe I'm going too far off on a limb here. But I'm trying to unpackage this for me, but now also for you.

ETA: cleaning up typos and missing words

[This message edited by psychmom at 12:23 PM, December 4th (Friday)]

Oh man, I just did a post related to this very thing! Psychmom, I'd love your input--it's called need advice on how to articulate an issue or something like that. Probably not the best title, haha. If you have time and want to comment here on this thread maybe we can both benefit (if that's not against a rule or something)...

Anyway, I'm so jealous!!!!! My husband still thinks sex is the main way to connect and we have a lot of baggage in that department. Part of it is my fault but to be brutal, most of it is his responsibility. Several counselors consider him a SA although it's not a physical addiction like some.....I also think it's more complicated but he has addictive traits if that makes sense.

I could have written this too! We didn't hb right away more like three months afterwards but when that was over our sexual activity and frequency changed and caused big issues for me. My husband for months has been saying it's not how often it's how good it is - he is referring to the afterglow and the naked cuddling we do. Says for him it's the best part. We never really did that before at least not in the way we do it now. We are more connected than ever and I know he didn't have that with OW so maybe he really does appreciate what we have together. I've struggled with this because I knew hb wouldn't last forever but I was sure that we could keep the fires burning - I never have owned as much lingerie as I do now, we spend a night away from our kids every 6 to 8 weeks we flirt all day long in text. But I struggle with the idea that he and go have Ow three or four times a week for three weeks straight and he doesn't seem to want me as much. The mc told me that it takes much more energy for him to love the Madonna then to screw the ******(foreign word for lady of the night). It makes sense but it's still difficult to adapt that mindset.

The mc told me that it takes much more energy for him to love the Madonna then to screw the ******(foreign word for lady of the night). It makes sense but it's still difficult to adapt that mindset.

ha ha - love that!

Highly recommend "Passionate Marriage" by Dr. David Schnarck.

In the book, he discusses the importance of getting to deeper and deeper levels of intimacy and how that is what leads to the hottest sex.

Some highlights:

1. Hug each other until relaxed. Stand on your own two feet. Hold each other, don't lean and stay hugging close for as long as it takes to fully relax, 20 seconds to a minute. Hold as long you have time for. Breath in your own rhythm. You'll be tempted to harmonize your breathing with you spouse: don't!

2. Eye contact during sex and during orgasms. Amazing exercise which will bring you levels of closeness and hotness you never dreamed of.

3. Learn to expand your modality of sexual expression. There are three: sensate focus, interpersonal and roleplay. Most people have a favorite and sometimes a second favorite. Expand into the one your partner prefers, and explore together the one neither of you feel comfortable with, until you can move between all three at will and at different times. The sensate focus is closed eyes sex or in the dark, where you are each in your own heads feeling the sensations in your own body. The interpersonal is the loving making love kind where you focus on making the other person happy. The roleplay kind is where you play with different roles: dominant ravisher and submissive; first time for both; secret lovers; nurse/patient; cop/arrestee; pirate/maiden; anything your imagination can dream up. You can combine modes when you get truly adept at each one.

He also discusses the importance of including three important elements into hot sex: being done; doing someone; and fucking. He's not saying don't make love, but accept and incorporate that sometimes there is nothing more delicious and overdue in long term relationships than expressing the more animalistic side of sex and if you are always 'being done' its nice to being the one 'doing' your partner. And yes being fucked and getting fucked or just fucking each other can be divine, too.

This of course is premised on a bedrock of deepening intimacy created by learning to self sooth and differentiate from your partner and yet remain close. The safety of intimacy allows you to play and create hotter sex because you want to want and desire and know that's the key to the best relationships.

I can so relate to this thread HB started one week after dday when I felt this intense need to "mark my territory ". I did no quite understand it then and did not know it had a name til I found SI 9 months later. H told me on dday that sex with her was hot, down and dirty and remained that way til the end of A 2.5 years later. But with me, he said sex had become routine and infrequent. He had ED with me and things were not going so well prior to and during the A. For her he plied himself with OTC ED drugs to make sure there was never an issue with his younger AP.

But HB seems not to have ended. We are having a healthy sex life, better than ever. But for me it is an intense emotional bond. I can really feel the intimacy. But I had (have) such an inferiority complex because of things he said about sex with her. So we talked just last week about this. He said yes, sex with her was great but now with me it is way better than with her because it feels real and intimate , honorable and loving. No more sneaking around.We do a lot of kissing, which I guess they did not do. And the cuddling while lying naked in bed. Oh my is that great (if you can sleep naked. So intimate!)

I guess what I am saying is that I think I get just as much out of sex as he is. And yes sometimes it is for selfish reasons on my part. And I know this will settle down at some point ( we both turn 60 soon) and become somewhat routine again -you can only have sex in so many positions, especially at our age, lol.

Psych mom, I too did things that were out of my comfort zone to make him think that sex with me was the greatest. But then I grew to like those things and continue because I want to do them. And I peruse the Internet for new things to try to keep things new. Some are good, some we laugh at! But we spent way too many years in a rut that this is fun

One thing that is really hard on me is that we were each other's one and only. We started dating at 16 and married 6 years later. It hurts me that it is no longer like that. But she did teach him to become way more uninhibited and I wanted to try to do that to

Marie. I opened a Victoria secret account and have spent wayyy too much money on sexy bras and matching panties. But every cent is worth it when I see how much it turns on my H when we are cuddling on the couch and he checks out what I am wearing. BTW, check out Adore Me for some great stuff much cheaper than VS

Sex is the glue but add to that a great emotional tie and it becomes wonderful, I M O

I'm going to be a little bit of a devil's advocate. I didn't care for the Schnark book -- it kind of gave me the creeps to be honest. I get some of what he's saying but it also seemed to elevate sex as supplanting other types of connecting and felt sort of 70s psychodelic.

We had intense hb for over two years. But there is no way that can last for the vast majority of people in a long term marriage. I know it can't for me and it kind of exhausts me to think it has to be hot rather than comfortable and familiar. That's kind of how I read the original post.....maybe I missed the boat.

I'm with you, Drishti, I only read about half of the Schnarck book because it was boring, a little creepy, and largely offering nothing we hadn't already discovered on our own.

We bounced in and out of HB for the better part of 2 or 3 years before things settled down. One thing I did take away from Schnarck's book was that a truly intimate marriage didn't really seem to need much hot sex. And that's where we seem to be now; more connected than ever, but happiest with cuddling. It still gets hot now and then, but it's never a priority. HB was a blast but way too exhausting for the long haul and not as necessary when you feel secure.

One thing is certain though; it's always the hottest after we have spent quality, intimate time together before bed.

Part of the problem is that sex is a personal issue. Just as nutrition can mean fruits, veggies, and nuts and no sweets for some, while others shiver excitedly at the thought of chocolate cake, different people have different sexual needs.

I skimmed that book, but it seemed to me to be a "you believe it because it feels good to" kind of book...something that reframes the concept of sex in a way that can make it easier to embrace after sex has been used as a tool to hurt you by a wandering spouse. But a lot of it is also poorly supported or based on "truish" foundations.

Only a short time ago, I needed sex to keep that connection between us, if we went just a couple of days without it, I found myself drifting from him. Now we are both in better places, I don't need sex as a glue anymore.....our relationship is gaining strength and I can feel it.

For us I have to say the sex we had earlier in R has contributed greatly to where we are today, when I read on here others are struggling to regain an intimate connection, I imagine how much harder that must make it all.

My FWH assures me the sex we have is the best he has ever had, I don't doubt it because of the connection that we have and all that we share......he may of had sex with others but as he describes it, it was purely recreational, it's the sex that he has with me that's emotional and truly meaningful.

After two years the HB has definitely subsided - - we have started a new ritual - every night when we go to bed we take a few minutes to just hold each other and talk about our day and plenty of I love you's - sometime we don't say anything - just relax and hold each other. Sometimes this leads to making love - but even when it doesn't it is the emotional connection that has really fueled our R. Society tends to portray men as purely sexual beings - but my WH has told me that is was the loss of our emotional connection that he missed the most and as great as our sex life is now - it is the emotional connection we are rebuilding that means the most to him. He said that men tend to equate sex with happiness - but even men need the emotional connection for sex to truly be satisfying,

I wonder sometimes if the lack of HB with my ex should have been a sign that we wouldn't last in R. Maybe it's a necessary step to healing or perhaps it's just an outward manifestation of a relationship that is trying to survive. I wonder how many successfully R couples had lots of HB vs how many D couples did the same. Just curiosity.

My ex and I had good, regular sex for many years that had slowly become fine but unsatisfying regular sex. I don't miss that. I miss having someone available for sex anytime the mood strikes, but I strongly desire the passion and intimacy side of it which was missing for so long. Maybe a prolonged period of HB helps bring that back into a marriage?

I appreciate all of the insightful comments!

At times I feel like I'm in a "new" relationship with an "old" friend -- rather exciting to rediscover one another after all of this time of emotionally drifting away. So getting back together as a couple is almost like starting something new. And with that new is a renewed interest in the sex and dating rituals that we'd lost along the way.

Maybe like breathing life into a dying fire? I don't know. But it seems I'm not alone in this and that gives me some comfort.

I wonder sometimes if the lack of HB with my ex should have been a sign that we wouldn't last in R. Maybe it's a necessary step to healing or perhaps it's just an outward manifestation of a relationship that is trying to survive. I wonder how many successfully R couples had lots of HB vs how many D couples did the same. Just curiosity.

That is an interesting question, ADryHeat. Maybe a new thread topic? I would guess that it's not essential, but possibly a "good" sign? Seems I often second guess myself as soon as the words are spoken or typed, as in this case

psychmom:

I could have written your post verbatim - right down to

Days and days, hours and hours in bed making love, talking, talking, making love. (One outcome of this period was an awareness of the state of the dust covering the ceiling fan in our bedroom!)

this ^^^ LOL!

I really believe that the development of a deep emotional intimacy between partners is one of the key ingredients required for a successful R.

Passionate Marriage book puts a premium on the emotional connection first and recommends the sexual stuff as an outgrowth of this. He starts with the hugging until relaxed and emphasized eye contact during sex to enhance and bring intimacy back.

I don't find it creepy at all, unless you think of sex as creepy. Plus, he's brave about pushing couples to have hotter sex. I'm not saying that hot sex necessarily inoculates you from affairs, but it sure does reduce the chances of them, if both partners are actively looking for ways to both deepen and widen their sexual repertoire.

My wife and I have also dabbled in tantric sex and that helps, too. The deeper the emotional and spiritual connection also helps to push other alien energies out of your sphere and helps to feel them if they should return.

Either your busy growing together or your growing apart.