SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

[This message edited by ConstantLearner at 2:24 AM, February 28th (Wednesday)]

Hi there ConstantLearner,

Welcome to SI.

The Wayward Side forum is protected and well moderated. Leaving the stop sign box checked before you hit submit, as you have for this post, means that the only people responding to your post will be people who are also Waywards and we speak from personal experience about what it's like to navigate the emotional landscape of infidelity's aftermath. There are people at all points along the healing path. We support each other, encourage each other, teach each other and also give each other tough love when it is needed. It is very much a group effort.

One of the things that we all have in common is that we made the choice to betray. We all had other choices, and we all had some kind of thought process that let us choose cheating over every other choice we had. The reasons we felt tempted are different. The thinking that gave us the green light to go through with it is not the same for everyone. But the presence of that thinking is. And it is getting to an understanding of that thinking that is going to be critical to being able to offer your husband emotional security in your relationship.

The difficult part of doing the work needed to get to your "why/how" is that you have to do it while also dealing with the storm of painful emotions your BS is experiencing and will experience for a long while to come. Part of what he's likely dealing with is not just what you did but how you were able to do it at all. He is facing the reality that what he thought was true about you, isn't. It really does a number on people, having their subjective reality altered in a heartbeat.

I know it is tempting to try to minimize what happened with the statement that "everyone will cheat under the right circumstances" but I don't think that's true. And while the affair does not have to define you, it does have to be addressed before you start trying to fix other problems in the relationship. Therefore it is a good idea to try get a solid understanding of what your BS is likely to be experiencing and to be patient with him while you work on yourself in an effort to become a safer partner.

I don't know if you have yet read "Things Every WS needs to know" by HUFI-PUFI but it's a good place to start getting a handle on what the BS is likely to be experiencing and what you can do to help them through it. I'll bump it up to the top for you.

There are also two books I would like to recommend:

1) "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda MacDonald. Short (<100 pages) and a pretty good road map for which behaviors are likely to help reconciliation and which are likely to hurt it.

2) "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. This was the first book I read and it was very helpful for me to start to put the affair in perspective.

I hope you stick around. Read, reflect, post here with questions or if you just need support.

Proceed with conviction and valor.

Best to you from a fellow EvolvingSoul.

I immediately went to my husband, distraught over the loss of a friendship that met so many relational needs that had gone unmet for so long, my husband told me it was no big deal; that nothing would happen. Well, I tried to end my friendship and ended up having an affair. It wasn't an accident, obviously (and it always confuses me when people frame it that way) but it was nothing I had previously considered or thought myself capable of. It was shocking. And it only lasted a couple of weeks before I confessed to my husband. I confessed everything (and still tell him the complete truth because that is just who I am. The two weeks of keeping A a secret were really not so much exciting as they were really horrible.)

It seems slightly odd to compliment you on your waywardness, but I will. As bad as affairs are, the fact that you told your husband an inappropriateness was present involving your church friend, prior to the affair, ended the affair before it became long term and then offered a confession to your husband is impressive and you are to be commended.

My husband, for all his positive qualities (and there are MANY) is a complete conflict avoider.

He is a great guy and, with the exception of this part of our history, I'm pretty great, too.

I'll just try to keep this as simple as possible. I doubt it will begin to address the specific issues you cite,but here goes. Personal faults are present in everyone, however everyone doesn't possess qualities that are good. Just good souls. You speak of your husband with affinity. You speak of him as being a good man. A good man? Such a general statement, but its meaning is known exactly by those that hear or read it. Good men and women are extremely difficult to find. If you have one, I believe he's worthy of your commitment to extend grace, patience love and direction. I'm not insinuating that you haven't in saying this. Again,perhaps you've done this already, but his conflict avoidance is sourced from something in his life. Perhaps his parents were this way. If so, he's not going to engage conflict merely because you wish or provoke him to be this way. He will need to address your healthy need to discuss conflicts and I believe you will need to allow him time to address this issue and partially accept and love him for who he is. I've been married 25 years. My wife and I both have issues that could threaten our marriage, however we haven't come close to this. I've simply learned to love her as she is and vice versa. We're all different though. I got off track a little, but just wish to convey, if you have a good husband, he's worth working with. It's soooo hard to find good people.

There is a lot of information on the internet about infidelity and it all seems to point back to the fact that I should believe that my infidelity proves that I am incapable of empathy or that I didn't love my husband or that I possess some sort of moral failing that only cheaters possess. It would lead one to think that people who have affairs are all scum who only think about themselves and are narcissists. That all we can do from now until the end of time is to fall upon the mercy of our spouses and beg their forgiveness and take whatever they choose to dish out.

Lots of generalities here and you're being too hard on yourself. Yes you had an affair, but you communicated prior to it happening, respectfully told your husband and didn't trickle truth him. You have taken responsibility, sought counseling (what about him) and you're on SI seeking independent opinion. Let's keep things in perspective.

You're right. I'm awful. I'm deeply flawed in a way that other people aren't." Everyone, and I mean everyone, is capable of cheating under certain circumstances (and I'm sure it's different for everyone).

If you don't self-flagellate around every corner and admit what a terrible person you are, then you aren't doing enough

Same as above. Take it Easy on yourself!!!!

but I will never beg (because, honestly, who wants a marriage where you have to beg for the rest of your life?)

You're taking this to an extreme. First if you wish to get into the good graces of someone you love, do so humbly and with humility. Some call it begging, some call it wanting with conviction. Either way, it's not bad for the person you love to see that you want them and would be willing to do so shamelessly, after all, it's your husband. Plus, who said it has to be for the rest of your life. Wayward wives will tell you and I hope they respond here, but you do whatever you have to do to restore the respect, faith and love of your husband who's pain is unlike anything he's ever experienced in his life. If you're too proud or determining to what level of remorse HE should receive, then one has to question the degree of remorselessness. My thinking is just restore the love that you had when you first met and were dating and build upon that. You deserve to receive his efforts to meet your needs by seeing an IC to address his communication issues. He deserves your love, grace, patience and guidance.

[This message edited by ConstantLearner at 2:25 AM, February 28th (Wednesday)]

[This message edited by ConstantLearner at 2:25 AM, February 28th (Wednesday)]

Fact is a marriage is a concept involving two people. That means both have influence over its health. I am slowly coming to grips with the fact that my BS alcoholism was a reason for him to take in my brother. H wanted to feel good, gracious and he wanted to deflect from his problems. BS is lapping up the ego kibbles from people telling him how great he is while he does none of the work. Wich made me rethink and develop resentment and selfishness.

[This message edited by ConstantLearner at 2:25 AM, February 28th (Wednesday)]

[This message edited by Poppy704 at 11:52 AM, February 28th (Wednesday)]

I hope I'm not somone who has come across as saying that it ALL falls in the wayward.

I have to say that's not the message I hear here on the wayward side (not saying you don't shouldn't, just providing my own perspective).

There's a phrase I've seen used a fee times

Both take 50/50 ownership of the marriage before and the WS takes 100% of the affair.

Seems right to me. As many BS say they were in the same marriage but they didn't cheat.

As for 'fixing', something in me let me cross that line and have an affair and I can honestly say j never thought i was that guy. My wife doesn't deserve a husband who is a risk of crossing that line again so yes, fixing me in that regard I consider extremely important.

However if you get to the point of attempting reconciliation, then it's back to 50/50 to making a marriage work.

One thing I think worth considering is that the number of BS venting their pain is in general significantly higher than the WS looking to change, atone and move forward in a healthy way. Natural bias will lead to a lot more venting and sympathizing in a way that sounds very one sided.

I don't feel like my marriage before is 100% on me, my behaviour in it was, my laziness was, my taking for granted was, but my wife brought her own traits to it as well.

However i could have walked away without ever cheating. The decision to have an affair is all on me.

[This message edited by ChangeMe1 at 8:25 AM, February 26th, 2018 (Monday)]

I don’t think I’m really qualified to address all your points and your posts sort of long so I can’t pinpoint specific things, but as a WW I can tell you that my experience here and at home are very different from what you’re saying.

No one says that you have to roll over and become a doormat and think of yourself as human scum (although some of us do because of our own issues). But, we did something that destroyed our spouses in the worst way imaginable. As you said, that doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Something we told ourselves or inside us allowed us to inflict that kind of pain. That deserves reflection and work and honesty. There are many choices a WS had before engaging in an affair. We choice the worst one. Why? It’s not okay to blame the marriage and focus on those issues. Because your spouse had those same issues but didn’t cheat on you. I’ve seen people here say that you each share the blame for the issues in your marriage, but the WS owns 100% of the blame for cheating.

About a BS saying vile things. It’s not okay. No one I recall here said that it is. But it is understandable. And deserving of that understanding and compassion since we were the ones who inflicted the pain and hurt that caused them to react in this harsh manner as they struggle to deal with their pain. Their saying those horrid things do not, as you say, happen in a vacuum.

Basically, being a WS working on R requires a lot of self reflection, work, communication, honesty, humility, and compassion. That doesn’t mean you have to subjugate yourself or bury your feelings. In fact I’m learning that it’s important to have a strong, healthy and positive self image. A good IC can help you balance both sides of the WS coin.

It's the script that says all cheaters are the same, that all cheaters are inherently selfish beings

nfidelity proves that I am incapable of empathy or that I didn't love my husband or that I possess some sort of moral failing that only cheaters possess. It would lead one to think that people who have affairs are all scum who only think about themselves and are narcissists.

IMO, we are when we are cheaters and shortly after while in the affair fog. If your husband had acted a different way after finding out about your affair, especially after voicing your concern and you still went forward with it anyways- you might be thinking differently about it if he showed more pain and destruction at your hands.

So far you two have had it easy due to the marriage conditions were already deteriorating and your husband was aware of it and has owned his part in the marriage problems.

At what point do we admit that things are never that black and white?

When it comes to the affair itself, it is black and white. Cheating is wrong. Choosing to cheat is on the cheaters shoulder and their fault. If you have been a long time observer, then you would have seen many say that marriage problems do exist. But, that is a subject apart from the cheating. It should be addressed obviously. But, it should not be to blame for the bad coping skills of the cheater. You for whatever reasons that were dysfunctional in you chose to stay in a dysfunctional marriage and chose to cheat. Divorce was an option as opposed to cheating. You chose not to divorce, but cheat. Doesn't matter that the marriage was dysfunctional. All that matters is what you could control and that was your reaction to a stimuli. You weren't forced into this by your marriage. You chose this.

There are many that cheat and think the marriage was bad. They also realize that many of their needs and wants were unrealistic and unhealthy on some levels. Their value wrapped up in their spouses affection and not being met by themselves. Inherently, it isn't healthy to have your self worth and identity so reliant on another person that if it isn't met, you would resort to immoral options to fill it.

Like they made a horrible choice but it isn't the defining fact of their life, nor does it define who they are as a person?

It is good you feel like this. Your acts shouldn't define you after you have admitted and owned them. It was something you were at some point in your life and now you can choose to fix the dysfunctional parts of yourself.

I see people on this wayward forum opening themselves up only to have at least one person throw their indiscretions in their faces and remind them what a horrible person they are and how lucky they are that their spouses haven't kicked them to the curb.

In my case I was that cheater. I was lucky. My marriage wasn't dysfunctional. I was. For many here it is the same. For some it isn't. Seems for many women that is the case. But, it doesn't change the fact that their identity is so wrapped up in the spouse's affection, validation or whatever you want to call that if it isn't met the way they wanted it-they choose to cheat.

Everyone, and I mean everyone, is capable of cheating under certain circumstances

Everyone can, but not everyone will. Their character isn't reliant on that validation that without it, they will cheat. Personally, I think cheaters say that to feel better about themselves because they don't want to face just how flawed they truly were.

to the extent of warning her spouse that something was brewing with another person and expressing that she needed help resolving the issue effectively) to deal with the issues at hand.

This just sounds very selfish to me. If my needs aren't met, then I will do something mean in retaliation instead of leaving. It is blameshifting. You warned your spouse that you would cheat if he didn't do something your way. It is like my daughter saying if you don't give me another cookie, then I am going to scream and yell. It is an immature response to a real stimuli, but you are putting the blame on the person not giving the cookie instead of the person reacting to the stimuli behaving in a more appropriate and mature manner. Your husband didn't help you. He didn't heed the warnings. He didn't stop you from having an affair. Why? Was it because he thought you were an adult and you didn't need him to be your Jimney Cricket?

I get you want to deal with the stuff that was wrong in your marriage. But, first you have to face why YOU chose to stay in something dysfunctional. If you have addressed that and you have changed yourself. Then, you are another step in the right direction. But, this isn't a marriage forum. This is an infidelity site and to me that is about dealing with our personal faults and dysfunction that kept ourselves in dysfunction if that is the case for some.

I don't think anyone has ever told anyone here that they are to be the scapegoats of the marriage problems. But, as far as choosing to cheat. That is all on you. Choosing to stay in dysfunction for so long, that is on you as well. You have moved on and not let your actions define who you want to be in the future. So, why can't you move on without the marriage? Is that the marriages fault or your own? Where are you stuck? Not wanting to move on because you don't want the blame of why the marriage broke apart?

> This is an infidelity site and to me that is about dealing with our personal faults and dysfunction that kept ourselves in dysfunction if that is the case for some.

I disagree. It is about REBUILDING or BUILDING a new marriage and that should entail taking a good look at the problems that were there before one Spouse cheated. There is almost always a weakness in the marriage itself.

> This is an infidelity site and to me that is about dealing with our personal faults and dysfunction that kept ourselves in dysfunction if that is the case for some.

I disagree. It is about REBUILDING or BUILDING a new marriage and that should entail taking a good look at the problems that were there before one Spouse cheated. There is almost always a weakness in the marriage itself.

Both are true and build on one another. You cannot build or rebuild a new marriage after infidelity without first dealing with your personal dysfunctions. Attempting to rebuild without doing the immediate self work and jumping straight into the problems of the pre A marriage will not have good results.

Rugsweeping may work in the short term but the dysfunction that caused the betrayal will still be there. You may not ever cheat again, but that dysfunction will find other ways to make you and your spouse miserable.

This is why jumping into MC first thing post DDay is often NOT helpful and can actually damage the chances of the marriage being saved. Jump into IC. Figure out what it is inside of YOU that thought it would be ok to destroy another human being to the magnitude an affair does. Only then can a BS even begin to feel safe in the marriage, and the only way to "fix and rebuild" is if BOTH parties feel safe.

I think a Forum dealing with Infidelity should cover All Aspects of the journey wich is not complete until everything, including the Marriage itself, has been build anew /restored.

Otherwise it is just incomplete.

[This message edited by GlowingLife at 12:58 PM, February 26th (Monday)]

[This message edited by ConstantLearner at 2:26 AM, February 28th (Wednesday)]

I can understand the mistrust I hope my husband feels toward me, even if I never intended things to go the way they did. I can understand because he spent years checking out on us in the hard stuff even if he didn’t mean to. So at this point, between the two of us, we have hit a stalemate. We can’t go back. We aren’t holding grudges about any of it. Nobody is mad. We’re all just trying to figure out if we can heal. And if we can be together through it or at the end of it.

ConstantLearner,

I can see and understand that you're very frustrated with what my BS calls "having to be the one". That is to always have to be the responsible one who comes up with solutions and follows through. I spent much of our marriage being so much like you describe your husband...passive and unwilling to engage much of the time.

Gently, I believe you're holding a giant grudge and are very mad and with good reason. Now you've given him a reason to be mad. Do you think you did it to get a reaction? I'll bet it feels like, at times, any reaction will be better than his lack of participation. My BS had to bring me kicking and screaming to the realization that passivity and conflict avoidance are huge character flaws for me. I'm very grateful for his perseverance and the love he's shown to me through this process. Do you think your marriage is worth working through this?

And sometimes people in this position need a safe place to say “oh my gosh! I set off a grenade in my hand! My husband has been hit by the blast! Can we help him? Can someone help me find my arm, also?” Helping my husband feels obvious, but it’s the finding your own arm in the carnage that seems to get lost. There has to be some sort of space for saying, I’ve blown my arm off and I can’t go on pretending like it’s still there.

I think the people here...we understand that you're hurting, but want you to think about how you let yourself get into an affair. What did you say to yourself to allow yourself to lie and cheat like you did? It's not that we don't care about your pain. We all suffer from our terrible choices. Please, whether you stay married or not, there's lots of wisdom on this site that can help you to become a better person and make better choices in the future. Stick around.

Hi Constant learner,

I identify with you on some levels, if you read my story, my affair was born in coping with some of the same marital issues. And, like your husband, mine had a period when it seemed like he was rugsweeping or a little too accepting in the beginning. I think it's important to understand that in a state of shock the initial reaction doesn't become the permanent reaction.

For months following the affair I was pretty sure it wasn't fixable for me. I was still swept up in what the affair felt like and to compare that in an emotionally flat marriage it seemed like I just couldn't begin to want it. And for my husband he was kind of the energy of "We can separate but I don't think it's going to make either of us happy, but I won't hold you in our marriage if you are unhappy". I really resented that in some ways at the time. Now, I see that was exactly right logic to a very illogical situation.

But, as I emerged from what some call the fog, I came face to face with what I was about to lose. And, about that time his emotions had kicked in and the tables were about to turn.

The only advice I can give that helped me was that I told myself no decisions for 6 months. I prayed and was still. I read, went to IC, prayed, and worked on myself. I can tell you before much time had passed at all I saw the truth: I wanted my husband and my marriage very much. The affair was an avoidance mechanism into an alternate reality, and when initially returning to it I didn't want to let the fantasy of "deserving something better" go.

I think in some ways you've lost the validation you were getting in the affair and you are looking back to your husband to validate you by having these sweeping "fight for me" emotions. You think you have already done the work, and that you know your whys. I could tell you some surface whys during the affair and maybe a few more after the affair, but I can also tell you that the digging continued and I have learned way more than I thought I was going to. Some ugly truths about myself and motivations behind my actions and I have started being vigilent about those things and more things will come. This is how healthier boundaries are born.

Having an affair doesn't make me a unsurmountable piece of trash, it makes me human. I don't feel like I am a worthless POS, that isn't my reaction. I chose to do something that was against my moral code, against my religious beliefs, and I hurt my husband very deeply. It took some time before he could grasp that as well because like your husband, the emotional connection within himself is often eclipsed by his logic. Now, we are both very intentional, and consider ourselves in early stages of reconciliation. And, guess what? He may not choose to stay married to me at some juncture if he finds this to be a deal breaker and that is his right. For me, I know I will stay no matter what.

So, I am just trying to say, I could have written parts of your posts in those early post DDAY months. And, I too thought there was some sort of post affair script or mantra that I could not align my beliefs with.

Now, I see why they are the post affair scripts, they are true just like clichés or what have you. You do have to fix yourself. And, if not for your existing marriage, for your potential future relationships. Cause, guess what? They will be lacking in some other way, and you may talk about those issues with that person and they may not connect with what you are saying. I think of it as there are three pillars to a good relationship: emotional connection, physical connection, intellectual connection. And, in any relationship one of those pillars is often weaker than the rest. Every relationship has those recurring issues that become hot buttons or gridlocked (as to quote Dr. Gottman). Your coping mechanism can't be to have an affair.

I say all of this to someone who has been in your shoes, and without judgement. Unless you give this some time and energy you are short changing yourself to have what you want. So, don't be so quick to dismiss all of this as post-affair script. This site is composed of Waywards, Betrayed Spouses, folks that chose reconciliation, those who chose divorce, those who are divorced but wouldn't have chosen it, those who are still on the fence, and everything in between.

oh and after re-reading I had one more point...I think because your husband wants to rugsweep, it's really stunted the progress of you wanting to reconcile. It's almost like you can't respect him, so it makes him less worth winning somehow. That's a little vague I guess but food for thought.

[This message edited by ConstantLearner at 2:26 AM, February 28th (Wednesday)]

[This message edited by ConstantLearner at 2:27 AM, February 28th (Wednesday)]