SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This thread is a consolidation of the information from my previous threads and will be my main thread moving forward. Sorry for the inconvenience

My wife admitted to “kissing someone else” in February 2018 - this moment changed my life forever.

Background – I have been married to my wife for almost 14 years now. If you asked me about our relationship before this year, I would have smiled and said things were fine. We have two amazing children and do plenty of fun stuff together. We had a pretty robotic weekly sex life, but I wasn’t complaining. I have always had a good job and she is working on an advanced degree.

Here is the thing though: I am sociopath. My entire life has been spent smiling and manipulating people so that I would not have to deal with my own pain. Understandably, I am quite good at it due to a childhood filled with mental, physical and sexual abuse. This is of course an excuse for being a terrible husband and partner; I was completely emotionally unavailable, sarcastic and often condescending to my wife when she tried to engage with me.

But, I never cheated – my crimes were neglect and indifference. So, where does leave me in the face of what she has done?

The real trouble probably started in September of 2015 when I had to relocate for work. She wanted to keep working on her degree, so I got an apartment and came home every weekend (~2 hour commute). We kept this up for two years and she did not make much progress on her degree.

She blamed that on the kids and a busy schedule, but now I wonder if it was the affair taking up so much of her time?

In the spring of 2017 I said that it was time to get the family back together. We got a rental home near my new job and sold the old house. My wife did not take this well and constantly found reasons to go back to work on degree activities (research/writing/etc.) “without distractions”.

She continued this until very recently when in the face of her earlier admission I insisted that trips back were suspicious and unnecessary.

Current Status – Throughout this entire process my wife has guarded her phone and locked it down tighter than Fort Knox, along with her email and social accounts. I have been collecting data when possible including phone records but iPhone to iPhone messages are not listed and I know that the other man that she cheated with is an iPhone user like her.

On her last couple of visits there I had a PI follow her and she attempted to hook up with the same guy both nights. Apparently, he has a new girlfriend though and did not let her in the house either time. It was hilarious to be on the phone with the PI, telling me that she is at the door with an overnight bag but he is not letting her in. Then, seconds later, my wife calls me and says that friend she is staying with is fighting with her husband so she will be coming home.

Phone records prove she never contacted her friend, and the PI confirms she never went there on the night this happened. So she is lying to my face about who knows what, I have also found lingerie that she clearly bought for the affair. One pair, which I regrettably washed had a semen stain on the front. I even found a crotchless body suit on her Amazon browsing history!

Her status – She continues to insist it was a single kiss and she is not hiding anything but will not give me access to her phone. I doubt she has any idea that I know anything since I mask my inquiries with vagueness.

She has started seeing a counselor to work on her self esteem issues, but when pressed says she is not ready to work on us.

My status – Her admission of cheating broke me. My walls were shattered and emotions that I had not felt in my entire life came flooding in. I am no longer trapped in a prison of my own design and am feeling great. I have started working out and doing a lot of meditation and reading. I went to a counselor as well and he said I am on the right path (will visit him monthly).

So where do I go from here? She is not willing to be open yet but seems to want to work on herself. I have completely changed who I am which pisses her off to no end. What boundaries should I be trying to set at this point?

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the sooner you realize this went physical beyond the kiss, the less pain you will be in when you find out the truth

I have already accepted this as the truth, I just want her to reveal the details

No more putting blame on yourself.

In the past few days I have been gaining clarity that she could have come to me and given me an ultimatum to wake me up instead of cheating.

What consequences have you doled out for her?

Nothing so far, this is what I need the most help with since she is not remorseful at all right now.

Where would she be if this guy didn't get a new girlfriend and dumped her ?

Probably making more excuses to go be with him.

What is your gameplan ?

The lease is up in May. If she doesn't start making some positive changes before then, she will not be on the renewal.

Do you have plans to reveal what you know?

I am not sure whether or not a reveal would help, please advise

Is your WW's long-term physical cheating and being in love with another man a deal breaker for you?

I don't think it is given the fact she was married to a mannequin for so long

If not, are you looking to R with her?

I am open to this possibility if she makes positive changes and really commits

First, have you been diagnosed as a sociopath?

I have always self-diagnosed my behavior as sociopathic, but never clinically diagnosed. I always thought that I had no empathy, but now I am feeling everything, so I think you may be spot on with your analysis :)

If she is that miserable in her marriage why hasn’t she left.

Good question...

If you were that miserable in your marriage why didn’t you leave.

I wasn't miserable, I was in an emotional coma for my entire life. My biggest question at this point is how to set meaningful boundaries without damaging the kids and unduly disrupting the household...

I would do nothing until you talk to an attorney or two.

I do believe that caution is the better part of valor. I am looking for a divorce attorney to discuss options with.

Ask for her phone and tell her the marriage depends on it. It's time to draw your line in the sand.

I am planning to do this on Wednesday. She has a counseling appointment on Tuesday, and has the day off on Thursday so she will have plenty of time to consider her options.

Me 1) What about the kids?

Buster - The same kids she thought about whilst she was cheating? Actions have consequences, the basis for your kids growth is the example you both set. You start treating her like the adult she is and make her face up to her responsibilities and the consequences of her actions.

Me 2) Where will she go?

Buster - She's a grown woman who's cheated and showing no remorse. Time to let her figure it out. See if her boyfriend will put her up.

Me 3) What is the timeline on this course of action?

Talk to a lawyer, once you have the full facts you proceed from there.

For the life of me I can't see how the situation as is is tenable. You're not married, you just have a roommate who wants her privacy to do what she wants.

Replies like this are why I am here. I need to get out of my own head and hear some real talk.

Me: Keep in mind though that she has a job here now (2 hours away from OM). She hasn't mentioned a need to go back since last time ~2 weeks ago, although she did send an email to an academic colleague of hers on Friday stating that weekly meetings on campus (where the OM is) would be helpful...

Buster - of course this is another tactic, she's trying to come up with ways to justify her going back there for "legitimate reason", she will then show you and email from the colleague stating the "benefits" of that, you know it's BS and she's just trying to get back in touch with him (OM). Again NC FOREVER is paramount if there's even a remote chance to R at this point.

[This message edited by JRanker at 9:00 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

My real D-Day happened last night, 9 months after my wife’s initial revelation of kissing someone.

I confronted her about unlocking her phone, and said that our marriage depended on it – she caved and let me look. There were so many things that I wanted to see, but I immediately went to her text message history with the OM. It didn’t take long to find the truth.

She was (and may still be) in love with him for the last 18 months. They casually chatted about having sex (when, where and how) on multiple occasions. Best I can tell it was a regular thing, probably several times a week.

My wife started to grab at the phone several times, and I eventually relented and gave it back. We talked for quite a while. I kept my cool, and told her that I forgive her, but I will no longer allow lies in our relationship. She agreed to give me access to everything. It was very late, but I tried to get the data off her phone, without success.

I tried again this morning, but she told me that she had deleted everything. I used Dr. Fone and it only showed me a few conversations, so I guess the deletions are permanent (unless I am doing it wrong).

She was quite angry for a while this morning as I tried to do this (even slapping my arm pretty hard at one point). I told her that her deletions leave me in worse doubt than before, but she insists that the OM that I know about was the only one. This is curious because I know of at least one other that she texts on a regular basis but never told me about.

So where do I go from here? The truth is out, but almost all the details that I might have gotten are gone now (unless there is a trick I am missing). I told her she can sleep on the couch for now. I didn’t get much sleep last night poring over the details in the messages that I did get to read.

HELP!

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She DELETED everything!! If she told the TRUTH, there would be NO NEED to delete anything.

I completely agree, but we are 100 miles away from the level of lies that existed yesterday. I am sure that there were other indiscretions (lost to the ether now) but do they really matter enough to file for divorce right away?

She complied with my request for full and open information, and has agreed to a no contact letter. Can I cut her some slack while she figures out what she wants to do next?

Can I cut her some slack while she figures out what she wants to do next?

Chamomile Tea - Absolutely not. She needs to worried about what YOU want to do next, not the other way around. Otherwise, you end up doing "the pick me polka" while her dithering racks up additional damage. Which brings us to.... what do YOU want to do?

Typically, it's too early to really know that yet. You only just confirmed your suspicions last night. The first impulse for most of us is to return to the status quo, and it takes months and months to arrive at the grieving stage of acceptance.

These things really happened and we have to do the long slog of processing them. That's not to say you can't take steps in one direction or the other, only that those steps are subject to change.

My advice would be to slow down, explore your options, and allow time to process the betrayal. Her discomfort should not be your priority right now. Yours is paramount.

I read your other thread. It looks like you're pretty damned hard on yourself. But you did NOT deserve to be treated like this. No one does. Remember that.

I am sure that there were other indiscretions (lost to the ether now) but do they really matter enough to file for divorce right away?

Who the Bleep - The indiscretions aren't the issue. Her LYING about them IS the issue. You are married to HER. She is a liar. Can you live with a liar as your closest ally? Your partner? The one who has got your back?

She complied with my request for full and open information,

Who the Bleep - No she did NOT. She deleted the evidence that would reveal the actual TRUTH, and her lying mouth told you what you wanted to hear.

You gut KNOWS this. I know where you are. I have been there. Most of us have. You want to believe her. Because the alternative is devastating and scary. Divorce is scary. Drawing and then ENFORCING that line in the Sand is scary.

You know she has already crossed that line you drew. So you choose to believe her lies because dishing her real consequences (divorce!!) Is scary.

JR, you are me 3 years ago. I promise, getting out of infidelity is your best chance at a happy life. The scary stuff passes. Life is beautiful on the other side of this. Only YOU can save yourself from her lies. Remove yourself from this sh**show. For you. For your kids. For your sanity.

I kept my cool, and told her that I forgive her, but I will no longer allow lies in our relationship.

Murky Waters - I think you should walk that back. Upon further reflection you can't just forgive her, but you see giving her the chance to earn forgiveness if she's willing to do the work. If that's what you want to do. I don't understand why you would at this point since all she's done is cheat and lie to you.

Buster - You're still doing the "Pick Me" dance, it NEVER works, and no you CANNOT nice her back to you.

I took you a LONG time to have access to her phone, why on earth would you give it back to her ? you blew it so now don't start the pity party that "you'll never know" you had your chance to KNOW and CHOSE not to at the time, you should have kept it until you read and copied every text from OMs.

Now don't feel too bad, we all made mistakes and this is ALL on her, she got you in this mess but it's your job to get out one way or the other. DEMAND she gives you her password and on demand access to it, OMs will keep trying to get in touch with her, also DEMAND she takes a polygraph, some of the questions may include: Have you had sex with someone else while you've geen a couple ?, more than one ? etc.

You offered "forgiveness" way too quick, she's not even a candidate for that by a LONG shot and trust me and others when we say you just saw the tip of the iceberg, want to know why she deleted everything ? of course you know why, her actions of deleting the texts is almost the same as not unlocking her phone in the first place (hiding her As from you).

File for D and EXPOSE her A with ALL family and close friends both without warning (nothing kills an A faster than full exposure), you already know you can stop the D process at anytime before it's final, then watch her behavior, don't clue her about what she needs to do to have a chance at R, she's a grown woman and should know not having As is not good for you, ultimately is your decision to either stay in a one sided open M or to get out of infidelity.

Why on earth would you want to go through the humiliation of allowing her to take her sweet time to figure out what she wants to do ? you're her plan B right now, stop being her doormat, man up and file, you let her figure it out after you take action, not the other way around. Sorry about the 2x4, keep posting frequently, this is a crucial time.

The 1st Wife - You don't need any more proof. You have enough.

She cheated. You found out. She lied. You found out.

She deleted everything to protect her lies. You found out.

She is now blaming you for her unhappiness and all that is wrong in her life.

My friend - we refer to this as the cheater’s handbook for a reason. It is typical cheater behavior.

You don’t need “proof”. You have it. You are looking for further details, which in my opinion, are unnecessary! You have the facts in front of you.

My suggestion:

Read up on the 180 and implement - you are not her H in the sense of having to do her errands or make meals or take her places. You are polite and distant.

Obtain a voice activated recorder to carry with you at all times so she cannot file false domestic violence charges against you. Trust me I know what I am talking about. She’s calling you and blaming you b/c she’s not in control any longer. And some people will do anything to get control.

Get money in your own name. Cancel all joint credit cards or remove your name from joint accounts.

Tell her calmly your rules for reconciliation - counseling for her and a timeline of all events. Free and open access to all social media and devices. No password changes on anything. Access to all of it - no hidden apps or anything.

This is the minimum for reconciliation . If she says “no” to anything she is proving she is not trustworthy and quite possible the A is not over. Or she’s still in contact with the Other Man or Men.

Sorry you are here living with the cloud of infidelity over your head. Your immediate goal is to get out from under the cloud.

You need to have a firm and steady path. If you allow her to control anything she most likely will cheat again. Ask me how I know.

I allowed my H to rug sweep the first EA. Wasn’t making that mistake again and I can tell you he is now afraid I will leave him because of his cheating. Yup - he no longer is in charge of me. I took back that control from him.

[This message edited by JRanker at 9:18 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

180 life is interesting at D-Day+2. My change in attitude has immediately sparked some new dynamics.

My wife has stopped attacking me and has started to seek my attention after 2 nights on the couch and full reveal to her family. I am not sure if I should go further and tell her friends (advice please).

I now have full access to all her phone full time and all online activity. She has blocked the OM on all fronts and did not respond to his texts (and told me about them) during the day yesterday before the block went into effect; no contact letter is the next step.

I am not sure when my true mourning will begin. I got choked up when I spoke to her mom and sister who were both very sympathetic. I think I am generally ok, but I feel like there will be emotional spikes here and there.

My wife also consented to be tested for STDs (appointment tomorrow) and wants to talk about boundaries. As I mentioned at the end of my last post I think telling her family broke something loose inside her. We ended a conversation before bed with me telling her that she needs to tell me why I should consider trying to fix things with a pathological liar.

Ten minutes after I went to bed she came into my room and started begging me to give our family a chance. She started crying about her family knowing, and was visible shaking as she tried to hold it together while addressing me.

I know that it is early going but these seem to be positive signs. I am still considering filing for D as an option but these signals seem genuine. What do you all think?

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Ten minutes after I went to bed she came into my room and started begging me to give our family a chance. She started crying about her family knowing

She's the one that shit on the family. Why didn't she give the family a chance?

She started crying about her family knowing

See, at this point it's still about how things affect HER. She's hurt and embarrassed that her family now knows the true her.

She's not remorseful yet. That's when she's more concerned about how YOU feel and how she hurt YOU and what she will do to make it better.

Buster - Now you see the effects of EXPOSURE and she needs more of it, yes EXPOSE her to YOUR family and her close friends, tell her she needs to apologize to your family, remember she needs to HATE the A to feel true remorse, she's still just regretful she got caught and is embarrassed about it ("poor me"), like others said, it's still about her, she needs to do a lot more begging for forgiveness for months.

You need to make sure the A has ended for sure,

(we've seen plenty of DD1,DD2, DD3... here in SI) have her sent NC letter approved by you (no sweet goodbyes), if any of her friends knew/enabled the A, they're not friends of the M and have to go too (another consequence of her A)

take advantage of her somewhat vulnerable state to request a timeline of the A from her, tell her she's got ONE and ONLY ONE chance to even have an opportunity to R (not a guarantee), that if you are to forgive her you have to know exactly what you're forgiving

tell her you know about her failed attempt to spend the night with OM and that you know much more but won't tell her how much and that if she lies one more time, it means she's not remorseful and you will file for D the next day, tell her you've already contacted a D attorney.

You know she's had sex with OM (she tried to spend the night with him and they've met plenty of times), has she confessed to the sex yet, if not, she's still lying (seems she agreed to STD screening without much of a fight) besides the STD DEMAND she takes a PREGNANCY test (even if she was on birth control), demand she takes a polygraph about sex with OM(s) during your time together as a couple.

You have now taken control of the situation, don't let go of it now, remain strong and decisive, yes you will go through a rollercoaster of emotions, that's normal, it will get better with time, if you have any doubts come back here and ask the SI community, keep posting freequently.

yes EXPOSE her to YOUR family and her close friends, tell her she needs to apologize to your family

Unfortunately I have no family to speak of - they are out of my life by choice since they are the reason why I was broken before even meeting my wife

has she confessed to the sex yet?

Yes, she has admitted to frequent sex since April 2017

DEMAND she takes a PREGNANCY test (even if she was on birth control)

She has an IUD, but this is an easy request

demand she takes a polygraph about sex with OM(s) during your time together as a couple

I am trying to find this service near me without much luck. Would the local PD be able to point me in the right direction?

Have you contacted his girlfriend yet?

I did contact the roommate (previous romantic interest). She said that it was none of her business, and not to contact her again.

This immediately led to the OM messaging my WW and saying "we need to talk immediately", so I think it had the intended effect

Can you elaborate or link me to a description of this phase for a cheater?

When a WS initially gets confronted, they will minimize, TT, and straight out lie to the BS. Most of WS are fearful of the consequences that's waiting for them. They will do and say anything that they think will help them lessen the fallout caused by their infidelity.

In your case, I highly doubt that your WW is remorseful. It usually takes awhile for true remorse to sink in. What's she's demonstrating is regret.

She regret that she put herself in this situation. Regret that she got caught. Regret that she's being exposed to her family. I, I, I. She is still thinking about herself. True remorse is understanding and owning the A and the pain that caused others.

Me - This immediately led to the OM messaging my WW and saying "we need to talk immediately", so I think it had the intended effect

Buster - It seems like it did, there's a reason why OM wouldn't let your WW spend the night with him.

Your WW is not even remotely close to being remorseful yet, that usually takes months and she needs to go to IC to find out her "whys", she needs to feel the FULL shame and embarrassment of her HUGE betrayal

She pretty much had an LTA with plenty of sex and lies right under your nose and now wants to rugsweep and get instant forgiveness, you need to make her understand the severe GRAVITY of her actions, she killed your M, she killed your trust FOREVER and she put your life at risk by exposing you to possible life threatening STDs

Tell her she only has one chance to come clean on whether this was her first and only A, there has to be a place for <polygraph> in your area, if not it will be worth the trip to another town to take it.

She killed the M with her A and if there's to be a possibility for R and that's still what you want you will need to start from scratch and she will have to do the heavy lifting, you will need a new M

R takes 2-5 years if even possible under the best circumstances, file for D and watch her actions, I think spending the 1,500 now is well worth it for a life altering decision after such a betrayal, if you decide to R, tell her to get a job and reimburse you for it, if she doesn't change then just let D run its course and get out of infidelity one way or another.

file for D and watch her actions, I think spending the 1,500 now is well worth it for a life altering decision after such a betrayal, if you decide to R, tell her to get a job and reimburse you for it, if she doesn't change then just let D run its course and get out of infidelity one way or another

I have been contemplating pawning our rings to help cover the cost. Is that too harsh? We haven't worn them since January. Now I know why she wanted to take hers off...

Me - I have been contemplating pawning our rings to help cover the cost. Is that too harsh? We haven't worn them since January. Now I know why she wanted to take hers off...

Buster - Yes definitely do this and tell her you're not paying to recover them, she will have to come up with a way to get them back, she took hers off many months ago anyway, let's see how much her M meant/means to her, what does she have to say about this (taking off her wedding ring back then?

why did you take yours off back then?

She said that I should take it off because we were starting something new/dating each other after I woke up (I agreed).

Long story short, her initial (false) reveal in January broke down my emotional walls and caused a real positive change in me. I saw this as an opportunity to start fresh, and removing our rings made sense. I will definitely need to get some answers on this subject.

[This message edited by JRanker at 9:32 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

D-Day+3 update contains a few interesting items.

Last night our kids had choir practice. WW offered to pick the girls up and take them to choir, which she never does (180 effect?), and I agreed. I stayed a little later at work, and then met WW at the church. There is a brewery next door (LOL), so we went to grab a beer while the kids were at practice.

WW immediately broke into tears and did not stop crying for the 30 minutes that we talked there. She said that the affair feels like a mental illness to her now. She doesn’t know why she continued it for so long, and couldn’t stop herself. I told her that I am ready to file for divorce and she begged me to give her some time. WW said that she will do anything that I ask to get some time.

Later in the evening we were talking on the porch and she started to cry again. She said she knows that I don’t care how she feels right now (180 effect again) but that is ok. She kept talking about how the affair was a pit that kept dragging her down.

We talked about sexual details and she claims that all they ever did was vaginal intercourse, even though anal was mentioned in the texts that I did see on D-Day. She claims she never went down on him, and did not allow him to go down on her. I am not sure whether these details matter, but I told her a polygraph will reveal any lies in the near future. WW said that was ok, and agreed to take a polygraph.

I also mentioned the issue of our wedding rings. I forgot to ask if the initial removal was a request of the OM (will follow up on that tonight), but I said I wanted to sell the rings.

WW was hesitant at first, saying that we still have a chance. I said the rings mean nothing now, and that I will never wear mine again. She eventually agreed and gave me her rings saying that we will need a new beginning.

She is at the doctor for her STD test this morning, and I told her to develop an affair timeline for me today.

IN OTHER NEWS! The OM texted me this morning and said that I need to leave him and his friends alone! I called him the morning after D-Day and told him I knew everything and not to contact my WW again. That was it, probably 20 seconds, no other contact.

It has been a couple days now without WW talking to him. All numbers and social media are blocked as well, so he is probably going a little crazy. So what do I do?

My gut tells me not to respond to him at all, PLEASE ADVISE!

EDIT: WW also said she will not ask to return to the town where the affair occurred again.

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Buster - Back to your situation, your WW is showing positive signs but she still needs to deal with her demons and find out her "whys", she needs intense IC sections with a counselor that specializes in infidelity.

Also you know cheaters lie, I find it very hard to believe she didn't perform oral on OM given the depth and length of her A, so again TT, demand a detailed written timeline of the A and then polygraph her about her A and if this was her first and only A.

She basically took you for a fool and lied in your face all that time, her betrayal was huge, it's too soon for her to feel remorse, her "mental illness" is still about her, it will take a while for her to feel completely remorseful, I would still file for D and only consider stopping it if she commits and SHOWS she's willing to do the heavy lifting.

Ignore OM unless he keeps trying to contact your WW, she needs to send a NC FOREVER letter to OM (no sweet goodbyes) approved by you, if he continues to make contact tell her to file a RO (Restraining Order).

The guy your PI saw her trying to visit. Is that the same POS you know about?

Yes, same guy

Is there any way of confirming whether there were others?

Not that I know of at this point. Perhaps via polygraph in the near future.

You said your WW was seeing him for 18 months and having sex with him 2 to 3 times a week. Also that she was saying she loved him. Is any of that being dealt with? She was carrying on an intense affair where the OM was essentially the main man in her life.

She is in weekly IC at this point. What else should be happening beyond NC and the other standard steps (STDs, polygraph, etc)

What does she say about her love for him?

She says she was in a dream world and thought she was happy but often felt sick after sex with the OM

Is she really willing to go NC forever? It has only been a few days I would be skeptical of someone that turned things off with him so quickly.

She says she is, I am working the letter today.

Pureheartkit - Be strong but do not be cruel. WW may stay and take the punishment but it kills their love for their H. They become hiding of their true feelings and also hide their resentment.

There are a few member I believe this is happening with. They don't have a good loving relationship. They have a subservient woman who is willing to do any degrading thing in order to stay. That is abuse.

So be strong but be reasonable and do not abuse or dominate. You will find yourself in a happy marriage later if you both R.

A 180 does not include long sit downs with you and your wayward discussing her affair or anything about your relationship.

I guess I missed that nuance in the description. We have been talking about it, but my attitude has changed to a very neutral one where I am interested in the information but I am not obsessed with it. She is handing it to me by the plateful

It is you basically grey rocking to give you the distance you need to remove yourself from the damage being caused to you.

I think I must be in shock or something because I don't feel damage incoming; new revelations are just information to be filed away, embellishing the full story.

This is also something that should not be done if you are planning or trying to R - which it seems like you are doing.

So are you saying the grey rock routine is not compatible with R?

don't use the tools as manipulative tactics.

This is a good point, my problem is I don't really know how I feel right now. I am as placid as a lake in winter - a ripple now and then, but overall I am very still and rational.

UPDATE: When I asked WW why she took off her ring she said she didn't like having a reminder of her responsibilities. It was not a request by the OM.

I sold the rings over my lunch hour today. I informed WW on the phone and she said she wanted to meet me for lunch. She started reading "How to help your spouse heal from an affair" and was apparently greatly affected by it and needed to tell me some things.

Over lunch she revealed that she lied to me about a lot of things in the last few days because she didn't want to rehash them or hurt me more. I said I understood. She continued, and revealed that she had performed and received oral from the OM on multiple occasions.

Finally, she revealed that when her A with the OM that I knew about started going south she had a drunken one night stand with a different guy. I have known about the 2nd guy's involvement for a while through phone monitoring but never had any knowledge of how far it went.

So updated tally is an 18 month physical affair with a heavy emotional component, and a drunken one night stand (vaginal sex) with another man to drown her sorrow at the prospect of losing AP #1.

I am not feeling anything right now, just casually absorbing the information. Wondering what will be revealed next...

Me - "How to help your spouse heal from an affair" and was apparently greatly affected by it and needed to tell me some things.

Numb & Dumb - A step in the right direction, right ? Right now I think you've gone numb. Your brain is protecting you from going insane. Bide your time. No need to rush anything right now. It takes time to process this.

Reading, Got STD tests, IC ( I hope).

I really hope I am wrong here. Trust me I am. I think that taking concrete steps towards the poly will reveal even more. It happens often enough I'd call it text book. "Parking lot confessions."

Your calm (numb) demeanor is working in your favor right now. She feels comfortable telling you things and sees that it doesn't make it worse. It probably does as it establish a pattern that has been going on a lot longer than you knew about. Can people change ? Sure. My W certainly did. Can everyone change ? Sadly, no.

Consistent, transparent behaviors over a long period of time is the only real measure. She seems scared and her fear is motivating her to be obsequious. I'd caution you on calling it remorse. It can take months before that will reveal itself consistently.

Also I think the changes you have made have shown her what she might be losing. Maybe not time to point this out, but you are in very powerful position to steer this in whatever direction you choose. Not all BS get that. Make the most of it.

Have you exposed the A and ONS(?) to all her family yet?

I just found out about the ONS at lunch today, but I will update her family.

has she revealed who else knew about her A and/or enabled it or helped her cover for it?

She has admitted who knew (everyone I suspected) and they have all been blocked on all methods of communication

It sounds like the OM1 ended the 18 month affair. Was this the same guy the PI saw turn your wife away twice from his door. Sure sounds like she is or was obsessed with him.

Yes, same guy

Did she say why OM1 broke it off? Is this the first time he's broke up with her? (maybe not)

He is a player who wanted to keep his options open. He broke it off with her several times when she tried to get more out of him than sex

Then she had a ONS with OM2 after being rejected. Where did she meet OM2?

She met both guys in her bowling league

How did she communicate with these guys?

In person at bowling and via text messages. We are now in a different city, in a new league together.

Me - He is a player who wanted to keep his options open. He broke it off with her several times when she tried to get more out of him than sex

Buster - What more could she possibly want from him ? to date him in public ? to marry him ? if so she discussed leaving you for him (have you asked her this ?), essentially turning you into plan B, have you asked her why you should be her plan B after her boyfriend dumped her ?

[This message edited by JRanker at 9:52 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

Consolidation complete, next post will be new information

[This message edited by JRanker at 10:25 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

Today is D-Day+4 and I am still feeling numb.

I have moments where I feel stirrings of emotion inside me, but the dam has not broken yet.

Yesterday was a good day for truth as WW's ONS was revealed, and some previously lied about sexual details came to light.

I told WW to work on her A timeline today, and we will work on the NC letters together this weekend.

Thank you to those who sent me PMs, they mean a lot – I will respond when I can.

When the kids went to bed last night, WW started talking at me again, “I am truly sorry and take full responsibility for my actions. I will do whatever it takes to make this right, whatever you want.”

I know these are the right words, but they sound hollow to me. I am not sure what she can/will do, but I am going through the motions for now. I think I need my real emotions to surface before I can make any decisions.

She is not enjoying life on the couch, and wondered when she might be able to get back into bed (she has joint problems). I have no idea when that will/should happen.

That reminds me, should I be removing luxuries from her life like her nail appointments and massages? She doesn’t deserve them anymore in my opinion.

I am holding on, thank you all for supporting me and providing clear advice. I am starting to feel tired, and reading your words keeps me sharp and focused.

WW also called her mother last night for the first time since the reveal. She cried the whole time, but thanked me for making her call.

Relevant background is that WW has had a rocky relationship with her mother ever since WW's father died when she was 8 years old. There are a lot of issues/damage there that have never been addressed, and probably contributed to her poor decision making. Maybe she will start to work on them in IC.

[This message edited by JRanker at 10:48 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

from Hopeless - Cheating is an inherently narcissistic act, rooted in selfishness, entitlement, and emotional immaturity. Those are character traits, not aberrations. Continuing to lie to you while sneaking around...is a good indicator that these behaviors will never change. A lot of cheaters are cake eaters. They want the comfort and stability of home while also having the illicit thrill of an affair. This is who they are, not because of how they happen to be behaving at the moment, but because they have always been lacking in character.

Saw this posted in another thread and it hit me hard. I think this describes my WW to a tee. It also aligns with a conversation that I have had with her on a couple of different occassions now.

The question I ask her is "why did you marry me in the first place?". Her answer is essentially that she enjoyed going to nice restaurants, casinos and cool vacation spots with me. Plus I was a decent guy with good career prospects - pretty impersonal reasons for marriage. Granted, I was an asshole at the time but these words and the post above are resonating pretty hard right now.

[This message edited by JRanker at 11:06 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

Wow! Sorry you’re dealing with this.

I recommend gathering evidence now, while you wait to decide to R or D. Get it now, she’s already showing it may be gone tomorrow.

I dealt with a botched (well, false) R with a serial cheater, and I learned a few things I did well or should have done differently. A few suggestions to protect yourself- keep her admission letter/timeline (in her hand preferred), VAR her spoken admission (if allowed to record covertly by state law), screenshot and email/text yourself with any and all information. If y’all have an iPad or old iPhone set it up on WiFi network w/ her Apple ID to intercept her i messages. Set up her find my friends to sync to your phone, and track her. If she has a google account- access it and print off her timeline. That reveals GPS, search results, and all sorts of goodies. When she’s feeling guilt she’s more likely to allow access. Use that time to fact find.

Good luck. You got this whatever you decide.

The question I ask her is "why did you marry me in the first place?". Her answer is essentially that she enjoyed going to nice restaurants, casinos and cool vacation spots with me. Plus I was a decent guy with good career prospects - pretty impersonal reasons for marriage. Granted, I was an asshole at the time but these words and the post above are resonating pretty hard right now.

She sounds like a gold digger. She married you so you can fund her lifestyle.

JRanker

Just wanted to tell you that you are doing well. It’s a lot to take in, I know.

The thought that keeps running thru my head as I read your (now consolidated) thread is:

She needs to prove to you that she wants to be with you because she is in love with you, desires you, and not because she’ll simply lose her lifestyle and pride. That should be the goal you communicate to her.

Tell her she needs to be honest to herself first, as to what she wants. If it’s no longer you, as her actions of infidelity show, then you can work together to end the relationship as best possible.

If she truly is in love with you and hopes to fix what she’s destroyed, then she should be researching herself all she would have to do to convince you to stay. It’s a tall mountain to travel. If you’re not the man for her, not who she wants to be a partner to and romantic with and sexually open with for the rest of her life, she shouldn’t start the climb.

You are doing well. You can go ahead and cancel her little perks if you want and it makes you feel better. But simply imposing punishments is not going to have much impact either way. Instead of asking why she wanted to marry you, how about: Why do you want to stay married if all you care about is trips, vacations, and nice restaurants. She can get that with any roommate. You first need to take care of yourself. But you could also set aside time for an extended conversation why the two of you want to be married. If there is no love, why bother? ( just IMHO).

Your WW has lied, deceived and cheated. You need to process this emotional trauma. It may be a dealbreaker for you, and you can file for D and move ahead. If you decide after a spell that you even want to consider R, then I would think you would want to have that conversation with her. She may in fact become remorseful, she may do everything right to save the M, but if this effort is only for selfish reasons to make sure she can go to casinos, go on vacations, or go to nice restaurants, and is not based on a love and commitment to you, is that a road you even want to go down?

Just asking?

Buster - What more could she possibly want from him ? to date him in public ? to marry him ? if so she discussed leaving you for him (have you asked her this ?), essentially turning you into plan B, have you asked her why you should be her plan B after her boyfriend dumped her ?

So did you ask her about this ? when she said he dumped her because she demanded more from the A ?

The question I ask her is "why did you marry me in the first place?". Her answer is essentially that she enjoyed going to nice restaurants, casinos and cool vacation spots with me. Plus I was a decent guy with good career prospects - pretty impersonal reasons for marriage.

Wow so now she admits she married you not because she was in love but for the perks and the lifestyle, does she still feel this way ? if so, there's nothing more to say here, file for D and don't look back, kids will be fine, ask her point blank: "Are you in love with me ?" if the answer is other than a resounding yes, then there's no point on even considering to R.

So did you ask her about this? when she said he dumped her because she demanded more from the A?

She said she was living in a dream world with no connection to reality. Her therapist asked her what she wanted out of the A and she said sex - no real thought for the future (cake eating)

She "loved" him because the A was thrilling, and the sex was good. Apparently he treated her like a booty call option throughout the A and never reciprocated any emotional advances. She said that she would sometimes get a hotel room so they could fuck and he would never show (busy with other girls)

Wow so now she admits she married you not because she was in love but for the perks and the lifestyle, does she still feel this way?

I am not sure, she always stumbles when this conversation arises.

Ask her point blank: "Are you in love with me ?" if the answer is other than a resounding yes, then there's no point on even considering to R.

I will do that tonight.

Saw this posted in another thread and it hit me hard. I think this describes my WW to a tee. It also aligns with a conversation that I have had with her on a couple of different occassions now.

The question I ask her is "why did you marry me in the first place?". Her answer is essentially that she enjoyed going to nice restaurants, casinos and cool vacation spots with me. Plus I was a decent guy with good career prospects - pretty impersonal reasons for marriage. Granted, I was an asshole at the time but these words and the post above are resonating pretty hard right now.

So in an nutshell she married you for what you could provide for her. Not because she lusted for you or thought of you as a lover.

See the inherent selfishness of ther statement? I don't even think she realizes what she just revealed to you. I do think she is that vacuous.

A woman is never going to truly give herself sexually to a man who she has no physical attraction to or lust for. She will give you duty sex to keep you on the hook, but she's not going to go out of her way to give you anything special or meaningful.

I dunno JRanker... You need to decide if what she is offering is good enough for you going forwards in your life. Personally I would not accept scraps from any woman's table, especially a flake like your WW.

The question I ask her is "why did you marry me in the first place?". Her answer is essentially that she enjoyed going to nice restaurants, casinos and cool vacation spots with me. Plus I was a decent guy with good career prospects - pretty impersonal reasons for marriage. Granted, I was an asshole at the time but these words and the post above are resonating pretty hard right now.

They should. This is not a real solid basis for a successful marriage.

As for asking her whether she is "in love" with you tonight, I would take whatever she says with a huge grain of salt. You've already established that she is an accomplished liar. Her actions speak much louder than any words ever could.

Reading the whole thing closely I had missed all of the stuff about her school and the separation before. It really seems like for some time there you were just an ATM and she had a whole separate life that you financed. What is the current status of her degree and job situation? Does she have her degree and a job?

If not I think I would insist she get a job to pay for her little luxuries. Do you two have any debts like credit card or such that are really hers? I'd put that on her to clean up with her new job. This wouldn't be you controlling her per se but I would tell her that you need her to start carrying her own weight for a change and she apparently has too much free time.

What is the current status of her degree and job situation?

She still hasn't finished her degree after almost 4 years now. She admitted last night that she wasted all the time that she was supposed to be writing on the A, and thinking about the OM. When he didn't show she would just watch TV

Does she have her degree and a job?

She already has a Masters, and is now teaching part time at a university.

Do you two have any debts like credit card or such that are really hers?

Yes, she has plenty of debt in her name. I am cleaning up joint debt first.

[This message edited by JRanker at 1:57 PM, September 28th (Friday)]

At the very least you should file for legal separation so that you do not incur any more hits to your credit from her debt. You can hold off on D for however long you want but you should protect yourself financially.

oops

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 7:12 PM, September 28th (Friday)]